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Post by Deleted on Oct 26, 2010 7:57:10 GMT -6
Referees need to be "graded" just like they are everywhere else. Are there not multiple ref associations around the state?
Then whoever heads up these organizations should do the grading. As well as someone from the LSA. The LSA referee administrator can go around and grade refs. Either in tournaments, league games, etc.
Is this a new concept? I doubt it.
Further, I wonder how many of these refs actually watch high level matches on television or make the occasional pilgrimmage to an MLS game? To presumably view a higher standard of officiating?
Had an inhouse match last night. Have to admit the ref crew was decent. At least by local standards.
We all can agree that refereeing is for the most part, a thankless job. (Although I have in the past gone up and congratulated refs that I thought did a great job.)
Hopefully we will see more refs (and coaches) with more playing experience in the future. This is the first step.
Sure, feisty (and clueless) parents are going to complain. Much of that comes from passion and ignorance. That is to be expected.
It should also be expected that if someone is being compensated to perform a service they should do so in a professional manner.
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Post by Sanofi-Aventis on Oct 26, 2010 15:26:56 GMT -6
ohmy and nside, I know the game you are refering to. The problem with most tournaments is that by the time the finals start, many refs are ready to head home, too tired, or just plain do not want to continue. The center on that game was not originally assigned to that game, he was just there when the spot needed to be filled. When you ask refs to do 10 to 14 games in a two day period, you will not always get their best.
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Post by ohmysocker on Oct 26, 2010 18:40:38 GMT -6
Fulham..... not sure if it was the same ref or not. The game I saw was at 9:30 saturday a.m. I hate to hear that it continued at that age group all the way to the end. I spoke to one ref that told me by the end they had done 17 games. I know that is a hard tournament to do. There are many refs that do a great job and very few get the thanks they deserve.
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Post by covingtonfan on Oct 27, 2010 10:07:02 GMT -6
I too was at the game being referred to and first off let me say my team lost this game on a great shot by the other team in the final minutes of the game. Once under control, this was a well played physical match by two good teams.
That being said, I do not agree that the referee for this game had no control of this game. The game started with some very rough, scary play from one of the teams. In fact many of the collisions could be heard from the sidelines and kids were going down hard. To control this the referee starting throwing yellow cards. Frankly there was no other way to control what was going on and for the most part they were justified.
As the cards were given and the game came more under control, the parents on the sideline became more and more agitated. Yells including "dont let him stop you from playing your game" "take him out" "get more agressive and just hit him" "take him out and dont worry about a red card" "you must be on crack" "take that" all came early and often and at one point a parent had to be ejected. There was even a teenage girl who turned to the sideline and echoed what had been said by a parent...
This is simply not acceptable under any circumstances and must stop. Parents must learn to let the kids play and the referees ref.
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Post by Steven Gerrard on Oct 27, 2010 14:07:21 GMT -6
Last year I was an AR at a high school game. Goalie came out and commited an obvious foul on the attacker, inside the box. It was an easy call to make. The CR awarded a PK. The next day, a parent for the goalies team posted on this board about the game, and about the call. From his/her description, you would have thought that the CR was drunk and/or blind to have awarded the PK. Had I not been standing there, watching the play, I would have questioned the sanity of the CR. However, I was there, and knew right away that the parent was grossly inacurate with his/her posting of the events of the game. So, why do I bring this up? Because, not everything you read on this blog is the gospel truth. (Maybe even my story).
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Post by celtic on Oct 27, 2010 21:47:18 GMT -6
We all like to complain about refs causing our teams to lose a match and scream "are you blind", "offside, OFFSIDE, "you're missing a good game ref" etc. Have been guilty myself.
However, I would like to thank the center ref that told my son to get subbed out 20 minutes into a Sunday morning tournament match a couple weeks ago. The ref could hear him yell as he ran onto any ball. He wanted to "run through the pain" in his lower legs. Thankfully the ref demanded that he get subbed out, and he had surgery on both legs less than a week later to relieve acute compression compartment syndrome. Thanks to this ref, he will play soccer again, or just walk painfree later in life.
This was not the coach's fault, I was on the sideline and did not hear the yells. Just thought he was bent over adjusting his shin guards after each sprint.
Thanks ref.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 28, 2010 7:23:04 GMT -6
Stevie, I would take it a step further and say that very little written on this forum is absolutely true.
However, the incident from 2 weeks ago that I brought up has warranted our club's executive director to investigate further. When I say investigate further I mean taking it up with LSA.
Getting an offside call wrong, calling an unnecessary foul, missing a handling call, etc. is going to happen. Sometimes it does cost a game.
But when you allow a group of 13 and 14 yr old kids to use the profanity that they used...as well as the 'gamesmanship' and unsporting behavior to continue. And knowing that tensions are escalating that is obvious incompetence.
The outcome of the game at that point becomes secondary.
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Post by portsoccer2010 on Nov 1, 2010 12:43:29 GMT -6
Well Tony, I would think that any ref who has taken the course, and has any inkling of common sense would know how to handle 13 and 14 yr old boys dropping f bombs and other unsporting behavior. I mean, this isn't an offside call, or whether a player went into a tackle with malicious intent. This was not a tournament either. Can't use the fatigue excuse. This was the first game of the day. This is COMMON SENSE! So, if they can't handle that, how can they have any credibility at all? So, your "solution" is for everyone to go and become licensed refs? That is a copout if I've ever heard one. No, what really needs to happen is a system of checks and balances be implemented. If we expect players to be accountable for their behavior then how can we expect refs (presumably adults) to be above reproach? The people that actually pay for the service deserve a better product than what they're getting. Period. No one said the referee was above reproach, in fact I stated at the start that there are referees out there strictly for the money. Have you called your assignor yet and told him/her that if they don't have a qualified referee with credibility to assign to your games then you don't want a crew at all. To me that seems like the common sense thing to do. At least then you won't be having to complain about a do nothing referee that worked your game. I'm sorry to hear that you think it's a copout to want to see more players go to the class and become referees. Where do you think future referees will come from, (that is the ones that aren't run off by coaches and parents). YOU could also take the assignor class and register for $10 and then you could could become the local assignor for your area. Most areas are always looking for suckers, I mean assignors. Most assignors quit after a season because of all the complaints. In closing, maybe if you became a referee then you could provide a better product or service for the people that actually pay for the service. But don't be surprised at the amount of complaints YOU will hear about the calls you do or don't make in a game. BTW, please explain in detail what would be your checks and balances you want to see enacted for the referees? Tony, Don't waste your breath. Some people are not part of the problem, but a majority of the problem. It is much easier to be an expert and complain about all these issues then actually help make it better. Thanks for all you do for soccer, especially since you must do extra work making up for those that don't do their fair share.
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Post by soccerlogical24 on Nov 1, 2010 16:21:48 GMT -6
Tony,
Don't waste your breath. Some people are not part of the problem, but a majority of the problem. It is much easier to be an expert and complain about all these issues then actually help make it better.
Thanks for all you do for soccer, especially since you must do extra work making up for those that don't do their fair share.
Sounds like the pot calling the kettle black. Ignorace and hate make people say stipid things.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2010 8:14:46 GMT -6
portsoccer2010 strikes again!
And, once again you're a little late to the party. Probably not prudent considering you have a personal ax to grind with me....
Your first post (of a whopping total of 2 now) was removed.
Going for the double now?
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Post by rlb2024 on Nov 7, 2010 21:00:05 GMT -6
As the parent of both a current referee and a former referee, I can understand the issues with continuing education and mentoring for referees. However, after an incident that occurred in my son's Premier League game this weekend, I am moving more into the camp that something more is needed -- perhaps a method for submitting reviews of referee's performance.
During the second half of the game, the center called a foul on a player and issued a yellow card. The coach of the player who was carded told the center that based on previous calls he thought it was, and I quote here, "a stupid call". The AR on the team side, who is standing in front of the other team, then comes running down the sideline from about 30 yards away and clearly initiates physical contact with the coach (chest-bumps him), then starts screaming that "you can't call the referee stupid". When the coach explains that he said the call was stupid and not the referee, the AR turns to the center and tells him to throw the coach out of the game -- which the center does.
After the game, when the team manager went to the center to get the game report filled out, he and the coach ask the center for further clarification on the ejection. This same AR comes out and again starts getting in the face of the coach, and trying to tell the center what to put in the report.
So now because of the actions of an AR who lost self-control and from what I witnessed was clearly in the wrong, the coach will have to miss the next league game. He can appeal but I don't have much faith that justice will prevail, unless one of the parents that was taping the game happened to turn his camera in the right direction at the right time.
Now these were not young referees -- they were probably in their 20s. And this is an experienced coach, not some young hot-shot out to prove himself. Based on what I have witnessed over the past several years, the coach is quiet and reserved on the sidelines, always under control and not belligerent towards the officials or his players.
I spoke with our club DOC today about the incident, and he said that there is no mechanism for submitting information about a referee's performance to the league. I find this surprising. Our local park has a method for coaches to submit feedback on issues with officials, but apparently the statewide program does not.
My question is, what steps can be taken to improve the level of officiating and minimize occurrences like this in the future?
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Post by coachray40 on Nov 8, 2010 12:25:35 GMT -6
JUST WHEN YOU THOUGHT IT WAS SAFE TO GO BACK IN THE WATER!!!
I have been enjoying some great soccer and good reffing over the last few weeks in some tournaments and was starting to change my attitude about officials .....and then we have a top five all time bonehead event this weekend.
Im at Gobbler Cup with my U9s playing in the U10 final, and we got to it with GSC U10 developmental team. Along in the second half, one of my kids hits a ball down the sideline that looked to be going out. The young female AR sticks her foot out to keep the ball from travelling way out of bounds, and the ball come off her foot back into the field. At the same time she raises her flag. No problems for me at this point. BUT THEN THE REF HOLLERS PLAY ON! Im stunned, and I look over to Doug Adams who is coaching the U10s and he is just shaking his head in his hands. For a minute I thought about asking the center if he was reffing a lot of indoor lately and thought this was a carom of some sort, but I bit my tongue for a few more minutes until he blew another call up the field. There were about 5 minutes left and we were down 3-0, and figured I had nothing to lose at this point, so I decided to get the officials attention away from fans he was argueing with, and used the time honored tactic of getting the refs to speak with me directly--3 steps onto the field. Dude came running right over like a jail break (that stuff works all the time!) and immediately told me to SHUT UP. I asked what his call was on the out of bounds play that his AR kicked back in and he said "I told everybody to play on". I told him yes, I saw that and dont you think a throw in would have been the correct call? He told me he was then tired of my whining and I should either shut up or leave. Well, I still wasnt happy with the response I was getting, so I asked him again why he didnt allow a throw in. He then told me "You're outta here--you leave right now!" As my assistant coach had to work, I told him point blank "I dont have anybody else to coach my team, so if you kick me out of here this game is done" to which he replied "I dont care, you leave here now" Well, the red ass kicked in at that point so I told him directly, "No, Im not leaving, I have no one else to coach my team, and I intend to see this game through till the end, or I will pull my team off and we are done." He again told me to leave, and again I told him no--SO HE LET ME STAY AFTER HE EJECTED ME!! If there was any shred of credibilty left for this guy after the ar kicking the ball back in, he lost it by "reversing" his ejection. A complete dolt.
Now, before any of you get all huffy about the "poor example I set, blah blah blah", let me explain the method of my madness. After the dumb play on, and a few other botched calls, the kids on the field started getting frustrated and were going after each other. Very emotional game between two teams from the same club, and it was starting to get heated. The center knew this, but didnt ref up to the needs of the game. Rather than watch an injury happen because this guy didnt get it done, I interjected myself to slow things down a bit--maybe even stop them. I was okay with the match ending right then, as it was on the point of becoming dangerous for both teams. The reffing didnt affect the outcome of the game, but it did affect the attitude of the game, and this is where this guys got it all wrong. I dont have a problem with the AR--she was just stopping the ball. I have no clue what the center was doing.
I spoke to two other officials that I knew during the weekend, and both told me thay had done 13 and 12 games over the weekend prior to 2:00 PM on saturday. Thats entirely too many games. Both admitted it had an adverse effect on them later in the day on Sunday. Im sure it affected the dude who did my final.
Over all the officiating was best on Saturday morning but disintegrated later on Sunday. There was a lot of controversy with a lot of referees on Sunday afternoon.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 8, 2010 12:34:10 GMT -6
Had another incident this past weekend. In this case it was in Tyler, Tx.
A kid takes a shot inside the box, it deflects off the goalkeeper, the player is lying on the ground and punches the ball across the endline with his fist.
What's the appropriate. First, handling, right? (handball being the common term.) Second a minimum of a yellow card.
The actual call? A goal. The AR apparently didn't see it. Didn't do his job.
Another horrible call occurred with a legal slidetackle. Ref called it a foul. The ball was clearly played because it was noticeably cleared away from the attacking player BEFORE there was any physical contact made.
When asked after the game the ref said that "any physical contact" on a sliding challenge is a foul. Whether the ball had been played or not
Wrong!
In theory, if you get the ball cleanly then any subsequent contact is legal...as long as there is no malicious intent.
The real problem here is that we have a system in place that apparently places referees beyond reproach.
No accountability.
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Post by sonics3 on Nov 8, 2010 13:11:33 GMT -6
Well the Champions Cup was not much better. Saturday the refs seemed to do a pretty good job. However, the U10 Cup final was an absolute joke. First, my mid had the ball at the top of our opponents box. A defender slid into him, studs up, into his knee. No foul called, kid grasping his knee in tears. After attending to my player, I asked the center to please watch them sliding in carelessly. His reply, "This is a contact sport coach." Second, my keeper scoops up a through ball, takes two steps, then gets run over my a striker. Ref told the striker not to do that again. Which was not the response I was looking for considering I saw a ref give a 9 year old a strait red for hitting a kid with his studs earlier in the day. After I had already gotten another kid off the field injured from an elbow to the back of the head, I was helping the third player off of the field after a players studs were planted into his privates, I asked the center to please get control of the reckless tackles and I told him I was concerned for the players safety. His response to me, " Shut up and get off the field!" I was not whining because we were losing. We were up 2-0 at this point. It was sickening that a U10 game was allowed to get this out of control. I used to be one of those coaches who yelled at the refs constantly. I became a ref to make me appreciate what they deal with. Someway, somehow, refs have to be held accountable.
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Post by Steven Gerrard on Nov 8, 2010 14:43:29 GMT -6
Im at Gobbler Cup with my U9s playing in the U10 final, and we got to it with GSC U10 developmental team. Along in the second half, one of my kids hits a ball down the sideline that looked to be going out. The young female AR sticks her foot out to keep the ball from travelling way out of bounds, and the ball come off her foot back into the field. What about the AR stopping the ball? You said that you didn't have a problem with that, but is it appropriate for the AR to stop a ball that is being cleared out of bounds by one of the teams? In my view, that always made the AR a "player" for one of the teams. I have always taken the view that the AR should never stop the ball, even if it is rolling by his/her feet.
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Post by autogol on Nov 8, 2010 15:20:51 GMT -6
Agree, AR should never stop the ball. Reason why is Law 9 - The Ball In and Out of Play. If the AR is on the line he/she is "in play".
Ball Out of Play The ball is out of play when: • it has wholly crossed the goal line or touch line whether on the ground or in the air • play has been stopped by the referee Ball In Play The ball is in play at all other times, including when: • it rebounds from a goalpost, crossbar or corner flagpost and remains in the field of play • it rebounds from either the referee or an assistant referee when they are on the field of play
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Post by futbolislife on Nov 9, 2010 18:10:30 GMT -6
I have been reading this for some time and now feel compelled to at least dispel some myths and clear some issues. 1. Hall97 - your statement "In theory, if you get the ball cleanly then any subsequent contact is legal...as long as there is no malicious intent." is absolutely wrong. By your statement, I can cleanly get the ball and then on follow through come through with a cleat to the knee. This is a FOUL. A player can cleanly get a ball and also commit a foul. End of statement. This kind of perpetual misinformation fuels emotional responses like "I got the ball" which means absolutely NOTHING. 2. Do referees miss things like hand balls? Of course. As I recall didn't a FIFA referee miss a handball in a world cup match that resulted in a goal and the game decider? There is no such thing as a perfect referee. If anyone expects such a thing, think again. It happens at NO LEVEL in the world. Never has and never will. Referees get better by making mistakes. Hmmm, come to think of it, this is the same for players as well. 3. Now AR stops a ball. A properly positioned AR is NOT on the field but a step off the field. So an AR stopping the ball should be out of play. And just to also point out that we instruct ARs to NOT stop balls. And the reason has nothing at all with the AR on or off the field, it has to do with perceptions. Players can become upset that the AR is stopping it for one team and another team has to chase balls. 4. RIB - your incident is well known to me and information is being gathered on the incident. IT has not been pushed under a rug. We receive these reports all the time and we do review. 5. Hall - an evaluation of every referee is not being done in any state in R3. The reasons are too many referees and too few assessors. In this state, we have 1100 registered referees and perhaps 15 active assessors. The numbers don't work. The only referees who get evaluated formally or informally are the grade 7s and up and the grade 8s who want to improve by attending academy events and field training events. Last year, we probably touched 10% of our referee pool in field training events. 6 - Coach ray - we've known each other a while and I respect you. I have no doubt that your statements at the end of your most recent post are the most telling of all. I have told people time and time again, many tournament complaints come to me from tournaments and at least 90% come from the games late Sunday. Isn't this telling? By your statement, the referees have done 12-15 games. This is too much. They are physically and mentally exhausted. The games become blurs. Been there and done that. While most referees know this, they do it for one reason, the good of the game and the kids. Yet the referees are in a no win. Get grief for doing too many games and going brain dead or leaving clubs without referees on games. Given a choice, my vote - do less games. And when teams don't have referees, oh well. I've seen too many referees end up in hospitals by trying to do all these games.
For the most part, people who tend to complain are the same ones when asked "Why don't you give it a try?" are the ones who say "I couldn't do that". People love to complain about referees especially when they are "young" and haven't developed. And I'm talking about young in terms of experience, not age. We certainly don't berate players when they are younger players for making mistakes. Have some of us lost our focus?
I would also remind referees who post criticisms in public to read the Referee Codes of Conduct. I would ask each of you, how would you feel if the shoes were reversed? Do any of you think you are perfect enough to not be criticized?
I apologize for this long tirade but the referee issues are more complex than anyone here can even comprehend. Does the State Referee Committee understand the problems? I would say yes. Do we know how to solve them? No. And members of SRCs around the US meet every year and we hear the same problems over and over. We hear about some new concepts but no panaceas. You have a constructive idea that can be executed in our state? We'd would love to hear it.
I can discuss problems all day. Problems without solutions are worthless. Let me conclude with these thoughts. Early in this thread, I discussed what we have done in recent times to improve the referee issues. It's not the cure all but a start. And when referees make mistakes and they are confirmed, we work to correct them, but privately. But more often than not, the perception of referee misapplication of law is completely incorrect by the coach/player/spectator and it turns out the referee did the right thing.
Last thought to consider. Refereeing is the only job you are expected to be perfect the first time out and get better every game.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 10, 2010 8:55:35 GMT -6
Hey, futbolislife, you might want to get your facts straight. I never implied that going in cleats up was NOT a foul. Going in cleats up implies malicious intent.
It is expected for refs to miss calls. Human error. Yeah, we get that.
But missing a handling call inside the box. In this case, a third ball (which should've given the AR plenty of time to be on top of the situation) still somehow 'missed it'.
Like I've said several times now. Human error is a part of the game.
Incompetence should not.
The complaints I have made in this thread did not involve "exhausted referees". These were morning, non-tournament, league games.
In the case of the slidetackle/foul incident from Saturday, my feeling is the ref was not properly instructed or simply doesn't understand the full context of Law 12.
Allowing young players to use profanity and otherwise unsporting behavior, repeatedly, and not taking control of the situation have nothing to do with "human error".
Comparing a World Cup match to a youth game is rather weak. Bigger pitch, speed of play, etc. place greater demands on the game as well as the officials.
Referees should not be beyond reproach. I don't care what "current policy" is. Sounds to me like 5% of the ref pool are calling 95% of the games.
I understand it is a "thankless job". Which is why I always try to make a point to congratulate refs for doing a good job. And no, it isn't based on a favorable outcome for me.
I also understand that the majority of complaints by 'neophytes' are probably unfounded.
coachray hasn't complained about refs missing calls. Has more to do with their behavior and apparent incompetence.
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dulac
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Post by dulac on Nov 10, 2010 12:42:17 GMT -6
Agree, AR should never stop the ball. Reason why is Law 9 - The Ball In and Out of Play. If the AR is on the line he/she is "in play". Ball Out of Play The ball is out of play when: • it has wholly crossed the goal line or touch line whether on the ground or in the air • play has been stopped by the referee Ball In Play The ball is in play at all other times, including when: • it rebounds from a goalpost, crossbar or corner flagpost and remains in the field of play • it rebounds from either the referee or an assistant referee when they are on the field of play College game....ball goes out for throw in at the top of the 18. AR stops the ball with his foot. Attacker throws the ball in to teammate who puts it in the back of the net. Guess who's not doing college games for the rest of the season.
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dulac
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Post by dulac on Nov 10, 2010 12:47:53 GMT -6
The Baton Rouge association is in the process of developing a program of Referee Accountability. I am asking for your ideas and suggestions on what can make this program work. Here is your chance to be part of the solution.
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