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Post by newosoccerfan on Apr 4, 2014 14:44:05 GMT -6
Just want to make sure everyone understands the reality of a "Post-Season" All Sports Split. If it happens, there is no reason for private schools and select schools to stay in the LHSAA. They can leave the LHSAA and govern themselves, which is the way high school sports are done in many states in this country. Then private schools and select schools control their own rules, money, and even referees if they want. A byproduct is schools in differing associations won't be allowed play each other because the associations have differing rules on eligibility, etc.. (That is also the way it is in many states in the USA.)
So, whether you like the idea of two separate associations or not, please don't be fooled by this simple sounding "Post-Season" All Sports Split idea. That may be how it starts, but it won't be how it ends up.
NewO
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Post by beauchenecoach on Apr 4, 2014 14:50:59 GMT -6
Honestly... Be prepared for not an IF, but a WHEN and WHAT NOW? It's happening... Probably will know by Summer executive meeting. The LHSAA and private school leaders are working on a dual constitution for both sides. LHSAA is trying to keep both under the banner and that's what discussions are about... Not IF... But WHAT NOW? That's the God to honest truth as I was told from a very, very credible source. The one thing besides logistics immediately for a separate private school association is that there are numerous private schools that do not want to leave LHSAA yet. While others are ready to go and supposedly already have their leadership picked out. Private schools will make more money either way... Probably more away from LHSAA... But even as a split, they do hold the negotiating power right now for their championship games and take on the gates, etc...
High school sports in LA is about to change forever. The next season may be the last as we know high school sports to be.
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Post by methuselah on Apr 4, 2014 15:44:06 GMT -6
I thought about this when the did the split for football and a lot of the same threats were made by private school supporters. So far they haven't left. That's the problem with "nuclear option" type of threats - if what you are opposing happens then you have to decide if you're going to walk away from everything and whether that will benefit you are whether it would harm you.
Bottom line is that if the private schools think it is in their best interest to leave completely, than they'll do so. If they think it is in their best interest stay with the public schools for the regular season, they'll do that.
I really can't see how it would benefit private schools to make a complete split. But maybe there is something I'm not seeing.
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Post by chelsea007 on Apr 4, 2014 19:51:14 GMT -6
I have talked openly about the split that is coming very soon. I have said from day one, we need to do what must be done to avoid this. The problem is that high school athletics has become a business. As such, the best interests of the kids...student athletes if I remember correctly, have been set aside IMO. Unless someone comes up with a workable plan, this is a done deal. I have thrown some ideas out and asked for feedback. Maybe someone else has a solution. Lets hear from Laprep.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 5, 2014 16:39:21 GMT -6
First, I want to say that I am in no way interested, nor do I care about throwball, basketball, baseball, etc. I am only concerned with the growth and improvement of soccer.
So, for soccer to improve, I think the private/select schools will and certainly should break off and form their own association. What will that accomplish for soccer specifically?
It will make high school soccer better in terms of level of play due to increased competition and more meaningful games. That will also make the games more visually appealing.
And, I hate to sound cruel, but you can't be good at this sport playing 3 month sout of the year. And the vast majority of teams have quite a few 'part timers'.
With the select schools playing by their own rules, these idiotic restrictions on club coaches' being limited to their access to high school players will probably go away.
Those of you that feel high school soccer is 'more important' or more 'meaningful' than club can come a lot closer to having it that way.
Now, the question is, will schools like Captain Shreve, Byrd and Caddo magnet now "invest" more in their soccer programs? Maybe. Maybe not.
For many schools things will become much more expensive. Travel, etc.
Of course, the definition of 'select' needs to be clearly defined. Because, without a mass exodus of the vast majority of 'select' schools...it won't accomplish the desired objective.
My definition of 'select' is any school that offers enrollment to students outside of their geographic zone...regardless of purpose. So, under that definition, that would include Captain Shreve, Byrd, Southwood and Caddo Magnet from d1, district 1. Would probably have to throw in Loyola, Calvary and possibly Evangel to have a full complement of teams to form a district.
The Monroe select schools would probably have to be merged with the private/select schools in Alexandria to form a district.
But let me be completely lucid in one regard...
You can have 3, 5...10 state championships, but it won't increase the overall level of play.
Because, eventually, the vast majority of the better players gravitate toward the better teams...sorry, I mean "schools".
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Post by coachray40 on Apr 5, 2014 19:57:27 GMT -6
hall97--you had better care about the rest of the sports becasue soccer wont be leading the way to the split--it will be following it.
So let me get this straight--if the privates dont get to return to the old system where they get to stay and play with the publics (like they are saying they "want to"), then they will split off from LHSAA and form their own organization and NOT PLAY WITH THE PUBLICS? What real numbers and fact based argument can be made why the privates (up to now being assumed to include EVERY NON PUBLIC SCHOOL IN LA) would want to do this? It makes no sense. And of course the split will cause them to most likely be able to only play against each other (kind of like what the proposed intra LHSAA split will do) in post season play, but they wont be able to play against LHSAA teams who wouldnt break away at all. Exactly why would they do this then? It serves no purpose other than cutting off ones nose to spite their face. Also--I hate to break bad news to you folks who think this is the end of organized civilization, but smaller, less affluent privates arent going anywhere. They will stay right where they are within the LHSAA because it suits them both financially as well as from a competition standpoint to do so. You think a Houma Christian, a University, a Riverside Academy, or a Parkview are going to take on massive upticks in cost to run their athletic programs because they now have to travel multiple hrs to play a district game, and it will be against a school 2-3 times their size due to a lack of number of schools who take part in this proposed pullout? Mullarkey!! Also, Public funded magnets, while select in nature, still have to answer to local school boards who run them. Schools like Shreve, Caddo and Baton Rouge HS arent going to go join another governing organization while every other school under the wing of their same school board stay in a different one.
All this talk of a "pullout" is just grandstanding by large privates that want to keep the playing field stacked in their favor. Split is going to happen eventually, but a pullout isnt. It just makes no sense from a financial or competitive standpoint. All you chicken littles out there need to just stop, breathe and quit drinking the koolaid. If you dont beleive me, just look at the voting numbers for how the challenges proposed at this years LHSAA convention went. There were more votes cast to keep the current public/private split than those originally cast for its implementation. The #s are gravitating toward keeping the split, not overturning it.
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Post by happyjack on Apr 5, 2014 20:50:27 GMT -6
Ray, are you feeling okay? That was your shortest post ever! Haha...
Anyone see the football finals this year? Private and public finals. Teams played together in district and through season, then split...I'm with Chelsea, this is more about how schools can make more money, rather than what is best about and for the kids playing the sport. Of course, the same argument can be made for club soccer, which is also about money...win at all costs drives much of youth sports today, and coaches are in fear of their jibs for mediocre performance. High school football, baseball, and basketball already sees this, can soccer be far behind?
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Post by newosoccerfan on Apr 5, 2014 22:05:54 GMT -6
Honestly... Be prepared for not an IF, but a WHEN and WHAT NOW? It's happening... Probably will know by Summer executive meeting. The LHSAA and private school leaders are working on a dual constitution for both sides. LHSAA is trying to keep both under the banner and that's what discussions are about... Not IF... But WHAT NOW? That's the God to honest truth as I was told from a very, very credible source. The one thing besides logistics immediately for a separate private school association is that there are numerous private schools that do not want to leave LHSAA yet. While others are ready to go and supposedly already have their leadership picked out. Private schools will make more money either way... Probably more away from LHSAA... But even as a split, they do hold the negotiating power right now for their championship games and take on the gates, etc... High school sports in LA is about to change forever. The next season may be the last as we know high school sports to be. I didn't want to be this brutally honest to start this thread, but Beauchencoach's post is correct about the vote on the "Post-Season All Sports Split"; it's going to pass. Then there is second brutal truth and this is how it goes. If you had a chance to take a new job that pays more and gives you greater control over your workplace rules, what would you do? You would choose more money and more autonomy! The group the LHSAA votes to separate (private and select schools) will have the same choice and will make the same decision. Once the majority of separated schools have broken off into a new association, what is left for the schools considering remaining? A joke of a playoff bracket in every sport?! So those school have no choice but to join the majority of schools that LHSAA separated in their new association. It's a done deal once the "Post-Season All Sports Split" is approved. As I said in the post above: it may start as a "Post-Season All Sports Split", but it won't end up that way. It's sad news I have to report. NewO P.S. I have not heard the new association's leadership has been picked out, but I do hear that many schools, both select and non-select, have already accepted the reality of two associations and a permanent split in La. High School Athletics.
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Post by loJic on Apr 6, 2014 14:22:58 GMT -6
Only hurts the kids. A shame
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Post by kevin on Apr 6, 2014 14:36:06 GMT -6
If it happens, there is no reason for private schools and select schools to stay in the LHSAA. I admit I'm not privy to a lot of the behind the scenes details, but what are the arguments for the private schools to leave? I don't like the idea of a postseason split at all. But like methusaleh said, what are the benefits of the "nuclear option"? The travel would be a nightmare if the private schools tried to split off. Try coming up with districts (for any sport) for just the private schools. It's almost impossible, especially outside of southeast Louisiana, unless you lump in smaller schools with much bigger ones. I'd like to think it's not all about the money. And I don't usually say this, but in this case, I don't think it is about the money. Does your soccer program break even or make a profit? What about the tennis team at your school? Golf? Cross country? Schools in the US have decided to spend a significant amount of money to support athletics, a stark contrast to most other parts of the world, where the most important places for youth sports are outside the schools. If it were only about the money, you probably wouldn't have any high school sports. (Maybe football. Maybe basketball. And maybe some other girls' sports to avoid Title IX lawsuits.) I think it's mostly about politics and power. I don't think the big schools like the fact that some 70-student school gets to vote on matters that affect football teams at schools with enrollments over 1000. I don't think the private schools like being outvoted by the sheer number of public schools. If you just counted the numbers of private schools and public schools, sure the public schools are more numerous. But if you counted budgets, if you counted attendance, if you counted number of sports sponsored, the gap would be much narrower. Or it'd even be in favor of the private schools. The biggest reason I'm against any split, as I said before, is the travel nightmare it would create. Now, being in the New Orleans area, that doesn't really affect me personally. I could easily draw up a season schedule playing only against private schools less than an hour's drive away (I could even draw one up playing only Catholic schools). But for private schools outside of southeast LA, it would be awful. There's simply no way it would be in the best interest of the kids. I'm sure we can come up with a hypothetical point at which the private schools should leave. But unless I hear better arguments for the split, I don't think we're at that point.
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Post by laffysoccermom on Apr 7, 2014 5:58:19 GMT -6
This makes me sad. My daughter's school made the decision to leave the Christian league and comre to LHSAA to compete against the best. We have had varying levels of success in different sports but feel like whatever we achieve is truly against the best in the state.
I still don't get it- is it attendance zones or the idea that privates recruit? Not sure if it's true but the biggest rumored recruiter in our area is a public school that supposedly recruits soccer players and admits them to its special programs but meets the non select guidelines. Again- not sure if it is true, would require assistance of the school board if true.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I537 using proboards
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Post by Steven Gerrard on Apr 7, 2014 6:47:09 GMT -6
Laffysoccermom, it is all about John Curtis and Evangel in football. Those are the two programs that are driving this entire discussion. If those two schools don't exist, this thread does not exist.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2014 7:34:31 GMT -6
Laffysoccermom, it is all about John Curtis and Evangel in football. Those are the two programs that are driving this entire discussion. If those two schools don't exist, this thread does not exist. Stevie, from a practical standpoint, you are right.
The biggest driving force behind the split are the small, rural schools. In this case, Many. A small town with a AA school.
Just as it was Nashville in Arkansas several years back. There, the decision was made to force the private schools to use a 1.6 enrollment multiplier. Essentially the private schools have to play up a classification. Is that fair? Most people would say yes.
Did it change anything? No. Perhaps for throwball. But certainly not where soccer is concerned.
I'm a free market guy. The freedom to choose forces the schools to compete for students and student athletes.
The same thing happens at the collegiate level. Given that youth/high school sports is a "business", how could anyone be surprised?
True, some folks, based on matters of circumstance, do not have the "choice". But small towns, or underperforming schools tend to stay that way for a variety of reasons. People are going to support an agenda based on how it impacts them personally.
As for how it will impact high school soccer specifically in La, it won't make a big difference in the grand scheme.
The same schools will still attract the best players. The same teams will still be the best in the state.
All this really amounts to is adding additional "state championships".
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Post by newosoccerfan on Apr 7, 2014 8:39:06 GMT -6
If it happens, there is no reason for private schools and select schools to stay in the LHSAA. I admit I'm not privy to a lot of the behind the scenes details, but what are the arguments for the private schools to leave? I don't like the idea of a postseason split at all. But like methusaleh said, what are the benefits of the "nuclear option"? The travel would be a nightmare if the private schools tried to split off. Try coming up with districts (for any sport) for just the private schools. It's almost impossible, especially outside of southeast Louisiana, unless you lump in smaller schools with much bigger ones. I'd like to think it's not all about the money. And I don't usually say this, but in this case, I don't think it is about the money. Does your soccer program break even or make a profit? What about the tennis team at your school? Golf? Cross country? Schools in the US have decided to spend a significant amount of money to support athletics, a stark contrast to most other parts of the world, where the most important places for youth sports are outside the schools. If it were only about the money, you probably wouldn't have any high school sports. (Maybe football. Maybe basketball. And maybe some other girls' sports to avoid Title IX lawsuits.) I think it's mostly about politics and power. I don't think the big schools like the fact that some 70-student school gets to vote on matters that affect football teams at schools with enrollments over 1000. I don't think the private schools like being outvoted by the sheer number of public schools. If you just counted the numbers of private schools and public schools, sure the public schools are more numerous. But if you counted budgets, if you counted attendance, if you counted number of sports sponsored, the gap would be much narrower. Or it'd even be in favor of the private schools. The biggest reason I'm against any split, as I said before, is the travel nightmare it would create. Now, being in the New Orleans area, that doesn't really affect me personally. I could easily draw up a season schedule playing only against private schools less than an hour's drive away (I could even draw one up playing only Catholic schools). But for private schools outside of southeast LA, it would be awful. There's simply no way it would be in the best interest of the kids. I'm sure we can come up with a hypothetical point at which the private schools should leave. But unless I hear better arguments for the split, I don't think we're at that point. Kevin, Travel currently affects some schools, but at a manageable level. Think Fisher in a 2A district with GNO schools, Houma schools, and River Parish schools. For sure, post split, severe travel for games will increase for a small number of schools (both select and not) and that is unfortunate. But the majority of schools will have enough population around them that any additional travel time will be manageable. (You've got to allow a 1/2 hour just to go across town after school in New Orleans.) NewO
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Post by parttimecoach on Apr 9, 2014 13:36:17 GMT -6
Laffysoccermom, it is all about John Curtis and Evangel in football. Those are the two programs that are driving this entire discussion. If those two schools don't exist, this thread does not exist. Great post. I am happy someone finally stated the obvious. What most folks don't realize is that when the select schools talk about splitting, they wouldn't go alone. The new assocaition would include select and non-select schools. The member schools of the new association would vote to let in new members which would eliminate the likes of John Curtis, etc. since most members would not want them to join. Another thing to consider is that it make no since for the select schools to stay in in the LHSAA because they have no voice. They lose every vote because there are more non select schools than select schools.
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nolapelota
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Post by nolapelota on Apr 9, 2014 21:02:28 GMT -6
I don't think schools would eliminate Curtis or Evangel. If you do that, there are schools who SEEM to specialize in basketball who will also have to be looked at. It just starts a new round of jealousy, back-biting, accusations. Remember, if not for Evangel, West Monroe would have won about 12-14 5A football championships in a row. How's that for your average "non-select" just the run of talent in your average traditional school district? Oh, and the QB from Alabama... well... don't all schools get a QB from Alabama or Texas when they need one?
Truth is, through the years I have yet to see a post from one single player, one high school student, that complains about the unfairness of the system.. Not even a single player has complained about Curtis or Evangel. It is the adults... school administrators, coaches, some parents, and some obsessed middle aged fans in small towns who are complaining.
These people generally have no interest in the good of high school sports, or in what is best for the community. They only want their way. And they will not stop with the select schools, they'll go after whoever is the next dominant team in any sport. It is sad.
Re: Why would the private schools leave and who would be hurt? 1. money... the private schools support most of the minor sports and provide much of the backbone of the major ones ... they can do just as well on their own and have less drag.
2. professionalism... the LHSAA has degenerated into a "ruling" obsessed group who no longer depend on a constitution approved by the members, but instead rely on how someone feels when one group or the other calls in. Why would you put up with the LHSAA and their arbitrary rules and strange rulings if you are segregated to a small little playoff group? Get rid of their drag and still have the same playoffs with less overhead.
3. never ending restrictions... the so-called non-select schools (many of whom are faking it and have select characteristics) will never stop limiting the minority. Might as well do it better, for your own school's benefit.
And don't be surprised if a trickle of the better, non-select schools drift over the line each year and join the select schools. And throw in the occasional non-select that gets relegated because their school board goes to open enrollment or something.
All this will all act to lower the quality of play in all sports, and lower the quantity of players as some schools drop sports such as soccer. All for what?
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Post by chelsea007 on Apr 9, 2014 21:27:16 GMT -6
I can't see a new association not having Curtis and Evangel. With prestige (even if it is winning at all cost...ethical or not), comes publicity and the money that follows. This has more to do with traditional public schools that see a select school 'allegedly' recruiting to a point where the competition is skewed dramatically. The current set up existed so long, IMO, because of the Catholic League. Like schools with like rules. It is only recently that the Catholic League has partly come back. In the time in between, numerous public schools 'discovered' they were at a competitive disadvantage in the city while the Catholic League was on hiatus. To be fair, most of the schools in the Catholic League wanted to be together but were not allowed to do so due to LHSAA classification restrictions on playing up. I believe it was during this hiatus that hard feelings came to the forefront as teams formerly of the Catholic league dominated their public school brothers in multiple classifications and the split has been a strong possibility ever since. Couple that with what seems to be an entrenched group from the Northshore/Baton Rouge/and Lafayette that seem to want the split and this was seemingly inevitable. Ironically, some members of the Catholic League supposedly reached out to other Catholic schools of the same classification size in the area but were supposedly turned down. It does make me wonder, if they would have joined the Catholic League, would the split have the momentum it does today? 14 5a schools (the ones that share a district with a dominant Catholic School) would probably now vote to avoid the split IMO if that would have been the caee. Crazy stuff. For the cliff notes...select football schools supposedly recruit, so everyone splits.
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Post by beauchenecoach on Apr 10, 2014 7:59:59 GMT -6
Some of you really need to do some investigating and not just post incorrect opinions like they are options. Its obvious only a small few of you in this thread know whats really going on and the rest are just writing opinion. Opinions on this are numerous... The facts are simple. The split is happening. Now which split will take place? The post season split under LHSAA or a total split into 2 associations? The options being discussed is lhsaa with two constitutions to appease and keep the private schools under one banner or having two associtations. If a new association is formed, its not select vs non select... Its private vs public. Hall97... Is Capt Shreve currently a select school anyway in football? NO! They are LHSAA non select school and that isnt going to change at all. Think about this... How would loyola like to join the private school association? Especially if evangel or calvary isnt even allowed in the new assocation? Travel would be a nightmare! The one big flaw with the private school association is not all private schools will leave due to travel concerns and other items. Lhsaa still allowing private schools to Stay in lhsaa that choose not leave may be an option also, but nothing has been stated to me yet on this option. There are also some private schools that actually liked the post season split. Not a lot of them, but there are some. And yes, the new assocation would be membership applied and voted on and the word is there are 2-5 schools that would not be allowed into the private school association. You do the figuring on that.
The answers should all be known for certain by July. Needless to say, things will change forever. Its very upsetting that this is happening. To me, the answers are very simple... Lhsaa needs to make rules on eligiblilty and transfers should all be inelgible for one year unless hardship cases are heard and approved. Other than that, let coaches coach year around and stop micromanaging everything! Outline basic rules for each sport and let coaches coach and players play! I think the eligibilty rule for oarish lines could have solved many issues. Not they just need to step back and stop micromanaging everything! The new interpretation on U14 soccer players in 8th grade being susceptable to undue influence if coached by a high school coach is ridiculous! So now, soccer coaches cant coach more than 6 high schoolers and also cant coach 8th graders that could go to their school? More nonsense! This is a much bigger problem than the recruiting stuff is besides the couple of powerhouse football factories. But the issue that will decide the future of high school sports as we know it is the private vs public battle this summer. Will we have just a post season split or a total break away association. That is the issue and those are the 2 options. Wish i had better news... But that is what is up for vote and consideration.
Thanks to newosoccer for starting this thread and posting the basics of what is really going on. Its been a crazy year guys. The split for all sports would have been voted in back in January but LHSAA leadership wanted time to try and salvage keeping everyone in The LHSAA if possible. Its still possible from what im hearing... But its looking less and less likely.
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Post by 9and6 on Apr 10, 2014 12:28:42 GMT -6
Coach Chad I don't disagree with you, but there is one point I would like to make regarding..."The one big flaw with the private school association is not all private schools will leave due to travel concerns and other items.".... IMO, The fact that not all privates would leave lhsaa is just as big a problem for lhsaa as it would be for any new private association. With only a small number of privates remaining in lhsaa, what would lhsaa do with them then. There quite likely would not be enough of them that remained in lhsaa to effectively have the split as it existed in football this past season. Yet, the big football factories, which are really at the root of this problem, would most likely be within the number that remained in the lhsaa. LHSAA would really be in a quandary then! Admittedly I don't know and/or understand everything involved with this situation, but based on the scenario described (some privates remaining in lhsaa), I think this would be a likely development that lhsaa would have to deal with.
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Post by methuselah on Apr 10, 2014 13:28:31 GMT -6
As far as football goes, it seems like they have been searching for decades for an answer to the problem of what to do when one school dominates things so much that they effectively choke off all life in whatever classification/division they are in that year. (I know John Curtis and Evangel are usually lumped togther in that conversation but I think it's mostly be Curtis. I don't think things would have gotten to where they are if it was only Evangel we're talking about - Curtis has dominated for a much longer time). They've tried letting them move up, keeping them from moving up, putting restrictions on how much they can move up, etc. Sooner or later the thing had to come to a head and in reality it was later.
To be honest, I'm not sure how the jump from dividing for football to dividing for all sports was made. I've never heard much complaints coming from any of the other sports. Though maybe there was and I just never heard them.
I have no inside information whatsoever but it seems to me that if the private schools acted in their own best interests it would be better for them to stay with the public schools for the regualr season and have a split for playoffs only. I just don't see how it benefits them more to split alltogether. But again, I'm not privy to all of the info that would go into that kind of decision.
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