p_malinich
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Post by p_malinich on Apr 24, 2014 7:52:50 GMT -6
I continue to be perplexed by some of the dividing lines between C1, C2, C3. And then the impact that has on the State Cup schedule, opponents, etc.
Take U15 Boys for example.
2 teams played RPL and 7 teams played C1. Excluding the RPL games, there were 21 games. As a result of those 21 games (plus RPL), 3 teams get dropped to C2 and leave 6 teams in C1.
Those 6 teams are now put in 2 "similar" brackets based on those results during the season. They will each play 3 cross-bracket games (and only cross-bracket). So that's 9 more games. Based on those results, 2 teams get eliminated. And by the way, there's no head-to-head, it's only based on common opponents. So you need to make sure you don't take it easy on any opponent because it's all based on points/tiebreakers.
Anyway, now we're down to 4 teams after 30 games (plus RPL). Those 4 teams play each other cross-bracket (1st vs 2nd) so you're now playing a team you played a week ago. How hard is it (with closely matched teams) to beat a team a 2nd time? Then winners play in a final.
It feels like a lot of games (with little impact) and the games at the end of the line don't necessarily create the best scenarios.
Some of the brackets that have 8 teams make much more sense so I'm not saying the whole isn't working, but in my opinion, there are several opportunities for changes that would put less strain on players' bodies and create more meaningful games in terms of determining champions.
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Post by Antimatter on Apr 24, 2014 8:32:49 GMT -6
I believe taking a four or five team bracket to a second weekend is equally perplexing. You get to travel a week later to play a team you will have played the week before for a single game.
In the four team bracket, if there is to be a final, play it Sunday afternoon the first weekend.
As for a five team bracket, I feel the best team will be the one on top after four games(Particularly if you play OT and PKS to avoid ties).
In some situations, you are talking into the thousands when you consider adding the costs of coaches mileage, per diems, parent travel, and if far enough, coaches hotel and parent's hotel. And that is all for one game against a team that you played the week before.
Also, consider these are usually the C3 bracket where the parenta may not be as committed and may be on the fence about participating next year. Make them drive to Shreveport for a repeat c3 game and you may have less kids in club soccer.
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usfgk
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Post by usfgk on Apr 24, 2014 9:41:30 GMT -6
Does anyone have the list and number of teams in each level (C-1, C-2 etc) for each age group?
I saw the format link on the LSA site but that assumed that all the teams were competing in state cup. My understanding is that several teams decided not to compete for state cup in the older age groups. Does anyone have something more complete?
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Post by laffysoccermom on Apr 24, 2014 16:56:58 GMT -6
Haven't seen anything? I know U14 girls is 6-6-4. Changed from 6-8-3 due to one team not registering.
BTW, I am for requiring teams to register and pay for state cup at beginning of LCSL. Maybe have where they could possibly get half of money back if roster drops below a certain point especially due to injuries.
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Post by laffysoccermom on Apr 24, 2014 16:57:13 GMT -6
Haven't seen anything? I know U14 girls is 6-6-4. Changed from 6-8-3 due to one team not registering.
BTW, I am for requiring teams to register and pay for state cup at beginning of LCSL. Maybe have where they could possibly get half of money back if roster drops below a certain point especially due to injuries.
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Post by copakid14 on Apr 24, 2014 21:19:20 GMT -6
I continue to be perplexed by some of the dividing lines between C1, C2, C3. And then the impact that has on the State Cup schedule, opponents, etc. Take U15 Boys for example. 2 teams played RPL and 7 teams played C1. Excluding the RPL games, there were 21 games. As a result of those 21 games (plus RPL), 3 teams get dropped to C2 and leave 6 teams in C1. Those 6 teams are now put in 2 "similar" brackets based on those results during the season. They will each play 3 cross-bracket games (and only cross-bracket). So that's 9 more games. Based on those results, 2 teams get eliminated. And by the way, there's no head-to-head, it's only based on common opponents. So you need to make sure you don't take it easy on any opponent because it's all based on points/tiebreakers. Anyway, now we're down to 4 teams after 30 games (plus RPL). Those 4 teams play each other cross-bracket (1st vs 2nd) so you're now playing a team you played a week ago. How hard is it (with closely matched teams) to beat a team a 2nd time? Then winners play in a final. It feels like a lot of games (with little impact) and the games at the end of the line don't necessarily create the best scenarios. Some of the brackets that have 8 teams make much more sense so I'm not saying the whole isn't working, but in my opinion, there are several opportunities for changes that would put less strain on players' bodies and create more meaningful games in terms of determining champions. 1 correction on this...when the 4 teams go forward to the final weekend you do not play cross bracket. #1 from bracket A plays #2 from bracket A...likewise for the B bracket. So you would not play a semifinal against a team you played the previous weekend in the 6 team cross bracket situations. |
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Post by laffysoccermom on Apr 24, 2014 21:25:20 GMT -6
You sure about that copa? I looked at the policies and it looked like he was correct. Maybe I looked at wrong spot or misunderstood.
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Post by copakid14 on Apr 24, 2014 21:41:03 GMT -6
According to the u14 c2 girls schedule that is posted, it shows 6 team crossover with semis being 1st A vs 2nd A
this is also the policy that was discussed by the comp committee...for this year it was voted by the clubs that 1st and 2nd from each bracket would advance regardless of points in those crossover setups. I'm just waiting for all 3 teams from one side to finish with more points, have beaten the teams in the other bracket head to head and still not advance!
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p_malinich
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Post by p_malinich on Apr 24, 2014 21:52:29 GMT -6
According to the u14 c2 girls schedule that is posted, it shows 6 team crossover with semis being 1st A vs 2nd A this is also the policy that was discussed by the comp committee...for this year it was voted by the clubs that 1st and 2nd from each bracket would advance regardless of points in those crossover setups. I'm just waiting for all 3 teams from one side to finish with more points, have beaten the teams in the other bracket head to head and still not advance! That makes more sense than cross-bracket, but that's not what the Policy Manual says. They probably should change it before games take place or it gives losing team plenty of grumble room. Totally hear you on the scenario of 1 bracket having 3 best teams (at least for that weekend). It will create noise. |
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Post by copakid14 on Apr 24, 2014 22:10:46 GMT -6
I have reached out to the powers that be to make sure the policy gets corrected prior to this weekends games. Hopefully it gets taken care of!
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Post by time2retire on Apr 24, 2014 22:58:09 GMT -6
This happened at a tournament that had cross bracket games with 3 teams each. Two teams go 3-0, one advanced to the final to play a 1-2 team that they had already beaten.
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Post by laffysoccermom on Apr 25, 2014 10:23:48 GMT -6
Usually cross bracket takes top two to finals regardless of bracket.
I like play two games in bracket. Then A1vB2 and A2vB1 in semis and A3VB3 in consolation- 3rd games for all. Semi winners play in finals- 4th game those two teams.
Always thought this was more fair and you generally get two best teams in finals. Only works for six team brackets though.
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Post by pirlo_rules on Apr 25, 2014 12:00:58 GMT -6
Long time lurker, first time posting. The policy manual has been updated as of today. Received an email with the particulars as I am my club's competitive representative. Page 59 of the Policy Manual on the LSA website. Attachment Deleted |
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Post by Antimatter on Apr 25, 2014 13:15:07 GMT -6
That change failed to address what many saw as a flaw in that one backet could have three teams go 3-0 and the 3rd 3-0 team would go home while two 0-3 teams advance.
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Post by laffysoccermom on Apr 25, 2014 13:18:17 GMT -6
That's why cross bracket is not a good format.
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Post by Steven Gerrard on Apr 25, 2014 13:38:36 GMT -6
Cross bracket is fine, but you should have teams advance on points. Not top one (or two) from each bracket. I have had this argument in the past with tournament directors.
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Post by Antimatter on Apr 25, 2014 14:19:56 GMT -6
It also requires you drop the hammer on defense to get a shutout even if you are up handily. Very easy for one like this oto go to the goals against tiebreaker.
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Post by pirlo_rules on Apr 25, 2014 15:13:43 GMT -6
That change failed to address what many saw as a flaw in that one backet could have three teams go 3-0 and the 3rd 3-0 team would go home while two 0-3 teams advance. This possible situation was brought up by several people and discussed with the group at the April meeting but the format had already been voted on and approved in January so no changes to the structure could be made, as that was not the purpose of the meeting. If I recall correctly, the discussion on 6-team formats was tabled until the summer meeting, where it would be possible for alternate formats to be discussed. What you referenced above, though, was the key argument against the format that will be in play for this year's State Cup. It is unfortunate that it could happen. |
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Post by laffysoccermom on Apr 25, 2014 20:46:00 GMT -6
And if it were to happen- you could potentially have a 0-3 team as a finalist who would play in regionals.
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Post by laffysoccermom on Apr 28, 2014 6:10:06 GMT -6
In U14 girls comp 2, you have one team that made finals with one tie and two losses. In other bracket third team had one win and onr tie but did not qualify.
Please don't take this as saying the qualifying team was not worthy. Just an observation.
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