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Post by rora on Nov 22, 2014 15:32:57 GMT -6
A few questions regarding the LHSAA Power Ranking system:
1. How often are they published and where can we view them in the LHSAA online site?
2. Are rankings posted on the regular LHSAA site for public viewing?
3. Remind me on how draws factor into the ranking.
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Post by Waraz on Nov 22, 2014 16:30:34 GMT -6
1) There is no set schedule on updating power rankings. In other sports, it's usually done once a week early in the week.
2) Power rankings will be on the LHSAA site for public viewing. There will be a different link somewhere near the schedule/score link.
3) a team will receive 2 1/2 points plus 75% of the opposing team's wins for a draw
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Post by Waraz on Nov 22, 2014 16:32:25 GMT -6
Another note to remember is that a tie is considered .5 of a win when figuring out how many wins another team has.
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Post by rora on Nov 22, 2014 17:03:57 GMT -6
Thanks!
As for draws, I was looking at the LHSAA online site for coaches earlier. In the overall % column, draws are not factored into the percentage. For example, Beau Chene is 4-0-0 and Belaire is 1-0-1 and both have 100%, wheres Benton is 0-1-1 and has 0%. If North Desoto, who is 1-2-0, ties their next match, they should be at 37.5%. But it appears that they would remain at 33.3%. I am sure that it doesn't matter once the power rankings are calculated though.
Also, there is no draw column for district or division records on the LHSAA online site for coaches.
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Post by rora on Dec 3, 2014 19:51:29 GMT -6
Anybody know why it seems some division matches are showing up on LHSAA site in the records and others not?
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nolapelota
All-District
No longer "booming,,,"
Posts: 203
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Post by nolapelota on Dec 3, 2014 20:31:29 GMT -6
For rankings here is link, page down to power rankings link. Or, go to "LHSAA," "boy's soccer," page down until you see "UNOFFICIAL POWER RANKINGS." It will have a date and disclosure statement about missing scores, etc. It is actually pretty easy to use. But be patient. Scores are trickling in slowly (surprise surprise) and some schools have not updated their schedules.
lhsaa.org/sports/sports-directory/winter/Soccer-boys
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Post by rora on Dec 3, 2014 20:39:56 GMT -6
For rankings here is link, page down to power rankings link. Or, go to "LHSAA," "boy's soccer," page down until you see "UNOFFICIAL POWER RANKINGS." It will have a date and disclosure statement about missing scores, etc. It is actually pretty easy to use. But be patient. Scores are trickling in slowly (surprise surprise) and some schools have not updated their schedules.
lhsaa.org/sports/sports-directory/winter/Soccer-boys
Thanks! I appreciate it and that actually answers a question I had. But what I was also curious about was why when we've played 2 division games it doesn't show that we've played any when looking at the win/loss reports. Just curious, not really worried about but want to make sure I'm doing everything correctly being the first year and all.
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nolapelota
All-District
No longer "booming,,,"
Posts: 203
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Post by nolapelota on Dec 3, 2014 23:19:11 GMT -6
I no longer coach and do not know the procedure now in use to enter results on the LHSAA site. I think only coaches with a log-on ID can do that. But I don't think I quite understand what you are asking.
- Are you a coach who has entered game results into the system that are not showing up on the schedule/results page? - Or has your coach not entered the game results yet? (there is a fine if he does not do it before the Monday following so if this is the case, you might want to nudge him a little). - Is it just district games that have not been entered or have no results of any games been entered? - Finally... is the question about the power rating system not picking up your games results on the schedules page ... or is it about entries on the schedules and results page?
Sorry to ask so many questions. I too am concerned about several teams that have not entering their results. There is always a few who don't get the word or misunderstand the directions. Perhaps one of the mods can answer your questions.
Regards
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Post by rora on Dec 4, 2014 7:48:41 GMT -6
I no longer coach and do not know the procedure now in use to enter results on the LHSAA site. I think only coaches with a log-on ID can do that. But I don't think I quite understand what you are asking.
- Are you a coach who has entered game results into the system that are not showing up on the schedule/results page? - Or has your coach not entered the game results yet? (there is a fine if he does not do it before the Monday following so if this is the case, you might want to nudge him a little). - Is it just district games that have not been entered or have no results of any games been entered? - Finally... is the question about the power rating system not picking up your games results on the schedules page ... or is it about entries on the schedules and results page?
Sorry to ask so many questions. I too am concerned about several teams that have not entering their results. There is always a few who don't get the word or misunderstand the directions. Perhaps one of the mods can answer your questions.
Regards Yes, I am both the head coach and faculty rep. My games are showing; there is no problem with that. And when you look at the overall record, it is there and is correct. But with the overall record column, there are columns for District Record and Division Record. I see that some teams divisional records are showing up; however, we have now played two divisional matches but it still says that we are 0-0. I am sure that it means nothing really, but my only concerns are if I am doing all I need to do and if matches are factored differently into power rankings for divisional and non-divisional games. Again, I am sure that these are questions of little importance, but given that it is our first year with it, I am just curious. I appreciate your help.
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Post by pOkLE on Dec 4, 2014 8:34:26 GMT -6
I no longer coach and do not know the procedure now in use to enter results on the LHSAA site. I think only coaches with a log-on ID can do that. But I don't think I quite understand what you are asking.
- Are you a coach who has entered game results into the system that are not showing up on the schedule/results page? - Or has your coach not entered the game results yet? (there is a fine if he does not do it before the Monday following so if this is the case, you might want to nudge him a little). - Is it just district games that have not been entered or have no results of any games been entered? - Finally... is the question about the power rating system not picking up your games results on the schedules page ... or is it about entries on the schedules and results page?
Sorry to ask so many questions. I too am concerned about several teams that have not entering their results. There is always a few who don't get the word or misunderstand the directions. Perhaps one of the mods can answer your questions.
Regards Yes, I am both the head coach and faculty rep. My games are showing; there is no problem with that. And when you look at the overall record, it is there and is correct. But with the overall record column, there are columns for District Record and Division Record. I see that some teams divisional records are showing up; however, we have now played two divisional matches but it still says that we are 0-0. I am sure that it means nothing really, but my only concerns are if I am doing all I need to do and if matches are factored differently into power rankings for divisional and non-divisional games. Again, I am sure that these are questions of little importance, but given that it is our first year with it, I am just curious. I appreciate your help. Since seeding is determined by power rating, I do not think the divisional record matters anymore. We do not get bonus points in soccer for playing out of division; divisional and nondivisional opponents do not count differently. Though it is helpful to see how a specific team fares against divisional opponents (and LHSAA will likely correct system to accurately reflect divisional record), I'm not sure it matters too much anymore. It used to be that divisional winning percentage determined Wildcards...but now it's pure power rating.
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Post by raiderfan on Dec 4, 2014 8:52:35 GMT -6
Divisional record may not matter for seeding, but it still matters for determining the automatic qualifiers from each district.
Edit- When I wrote the above, I was thinking about district record, being the determining factor for who the district champion is. Divisional record, indeed, doesn't count for anything.
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Post by Timbertwin on Dec 4, 2014 8:59:45 GMT -6
The only automatic qualifiers are the district champions.
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Post by theirishman on Dec 4, 2014 9:17:37 GMT -6
A couple of obvious flaws in the power ratings:
A win against a team that finishes 15-0 will count the same as a win against a team that finishes 15-12. You would get 20 points in either case. So, smart coaches could just schedule teams that play a ton of games.
A over a DIII team counts the same as a win over a DI team. So, DI teams could just play the best DIII teams and rack up wins against teams they are likely to beat that will end up with a lot of wins.
Am I missing something?
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Post by raiderfan on Dec 4, 2014 9:31:03 GMT -6
A couple of obvious flaws in the power ratings: A win against a team that finishes 15-0 will count the same as a win against a team that finishes 15-12. You would get 20 points in either case. So, smart coaches could just schedule teams that play a ton of games. A over a DIII team counts the same as a win over a DI team. So, DI teams could just play the best DIII teams and rack up wins against teams they are likely to beat that will end up with a lot of wins. Am I missing something? Sure, there are flaws. Do you have an idea for a perfect system? I do think you are missing some things, such as the fact that "the best DIII teams" are not that easy to rack up wins against. Lots of DI teams would be considered underdogs against Northlake or U-High or several other top DIII teams. And the DI teams that would have a good chance of beating them are good enough that they don't need to pad their resumes.
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nolapelota
All-District
No longer "booming,,,"
Posts: 203
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Post by nolapelota on Dec 4, 2014 9:46:09 GMT -6
I have a long time history of opposing computer seeding.. and I think many will see why eventually. It isn't easy to design a computer program that predicts sports events with any accuracy, or the sports betting organizations would have such a program.
However, rora is a head coach and is asking if he is following the new procedure correctly. It doesn't seem as if he has gotten an answer to his concerns. To me, it sounds like he is entering all the data correctly but that the program that calculates power rating just ignores some data, such as identifying division opponents. The discussion thus far seems to have elided over the possiblility that the automatic qualifier district champion could be determined by tie-break division record.
Can anyone with knowledge of how the power rating computer program works give him a definitive answer? It doesn't seem a big deal and if necessary such a tie break could be quickly calculated by hand. But, I've been there and know how some of the more arcane processes of the LHSAA can keep a coach up at night (LOL).
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Post by theirishman on Dec 4, 2014 9:50:46 GMT -6
A couple of obvious flaws in the power ratings: A win against a team that finishes 15-0 will count the same as a win against a team that finishes 15-12. You would get 20 points in either case. So, smart coaches could just schedule teams that play a ton of games. A over a DIII team counts the same as a win over a DI team. So, DI teams could just play the best DIII teams and rack up wins against teams they are likely to beat that will end up with a lot of wins. Am I missing something? Sure, there are flaws. Do you have an idea for a perfect system? I do think you are missing some things, such as the fact that "the best DIII teams" are not that easy to rack up wins against. Lots of DI teams would be considered underdogs against Northlake or U-High or several other top DIII teams. And the DI teams that would have a good chance of beating them are good enough that they don't need to pad their resumes. You are correct that there is no perfect system. A couple of seemingly obvious improvements would be to use your opponents winning % and not their wins in the formula. Another would be to either not count games outside of your division or give less points for going to a lower division or a bonus for going to a higher division to play. It works both ways. A DIII team beating a DI team should get more of a boost then if they beat a DIII team with the same record. There is a long tradition of separating schools into divisions for district play and playoffs and for good reason. I am not sure why a rating system would then ignore that. I am sure people smarter then me have already thought of these things and there are reasons they are not implemented. I do think most teams will end up seeded where they should be with the current system but there will probably be someone seeded way off though and that is where the screaming will be heard.
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Post by offside on Dec 4, 2014 10:12:25 GMT -6
I have a long time history of opposing computer seeding.. and I think many will see why eventually. It isn't easy to design a computer program that predicts sports events with any accuracy, or the sports betting organizations would have such a program. However, rora is a head coach and is asking if he is following the new procedure correctly. It doesn't seem as if he has gotten an answer to his concerns. To me, it sounds like he is entering all the data correctly but that the program that calculates power rating just ignores some data, such as identifying division opponents. The discussion thus far seems to have elided over the possiblility that the automatic qualifier district champion could be determined by tie-break division record. Can anyone with knowledge of how the power rating computer program works give him a definitive answer? It doesn't seem a big deal and if necessary such a tie break could be quickly calculated by hand. But, I've been there and know how some of the more arcane processes of the LHSAA can keep a coach up at night (LOL). I'm still not real clear what is being asked but I think there is a current thread on the girls side that might help. Someone has explained that divisional record is no longer a factor in anything. Automatic qualifiers are district champs only and in the event of a tie for district championship, no tie breaker is needed as all teams tied for the championship will earn the automatic bid, therefore eliminating the need for divisional record tiebreaker rules. As far as why his divisional games are not recoreded on the LHSAA website, I'm not sure, but I think what everybody else is saying is that it doesn't matter for power ranking purposes or district seeding what your divisonal record may be. Again, someone correct me if I'm wrong.
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