One mo'time - teams NOT playing for district...

[nolapelota]

This issue is apparently unique to D-III.  I believe it would be far better to address it now rather than when playoffs roll around. 

I just cannot wrap my mind around the concept that a team not-playing-for-district honors, or a team not even listed as being in a LHSAA district, can end up highly ranked in the computer-seeded playoffs.

Here are three schools , (1) Patrick Taylor, (2) International H.S of New Orleans, and (3) New Orleans Military and Maritime Academy.   Of these three only Patrick Taylor seams to be assigned to a soccer district according to the LHSAA site ... But Pat Taylor only plays a few games and does not play a district schedule, never has.  NOM&M also only plays a few games, and is apparently not assigned to a LHSAA district at all.  Yet both of these team's games count as "varsity games," for the purpose of computer ranking, and they are eligible to be seeding into the top 32 for the playoffs by the computer? (Even though this is "unlikely" to happen, it doesn't mean it couldn't happen)

But the real kicker is International H.S.  They are apparently not assigned to a LHSAA district.  Even though they have three "district" games listed on their schedule, they are obviously not playing a district schedule ... yet come playoffs, they could possibly end up in the top 16 computer ranked teams based on their results to date and their upcoming schedule ... which includes multiple "varsity" games against ... Patrick Taylor and NOM&M.

I am pleased that these new programs are coming into the system. However, I still wonder why these teams are regarded as "varsity" teams by the computer, and why they are eligible to be seeded into the playoffs without facing a district schedule.  International could end up higher ranked than several really good teams that played a real schedule. 

Can someone enlighten me?  Please tell me that this has been thought out.... because I don't think this problem exists in Divisions I and II. 

On another topic, for the nth year, apparently Carroll has dropped out of soccer leaving District III-2 with only two teams yet again.  Year after year this two-team district automatically qualifies one team for the playoffs.  Year after year Carroll quits soccer, sometimes in the mid year, sometimes before the season.  This ridiculous situation has cost other teams a playoff berth in the past.  Well, both the III-2 teams the play the game make multiple trips to Shreve, Ruston etc. anyway.  Why not put them in District III-1, and apply the nuclear rules to Carroll soccer ... the rules say if you forfeit games two years in a row you are out of the sport.  

This is not meant as a slam against the LHSAA or any of these teams.  It is just another try to wake up the governing authorities to the fact that D-III has a certain situation that has apparently been ignored. AnId there may be other D-III schools not playing for district yet being counted in the computer.  I'm just not familiar with them. 

I'm hoping someone will "help me understand."  Thanks

[pOkLE]

If you are "not competing for district honors" you are not playoff eligible. Yes, you are a varsity team but that is all. This is my understanding. It happens in DII too.

[nolapelota]

Dec 15, 2014 20:32:55 GMT -6 pOkLE said:

If you are "not competing for district honors" you are not playoff eligible. Yes, you are a varsity team but that is all. This is my understanding. It happens in DII too.

Poke, that is what the rules used to say clearly in the LHSAA handbook.  In years past games against teams not playing for district were not recorded as varsity games.  But now the computer is ranking these teams. and their games against other teams in the region are being counted and rated. . 

It really wasn't that important in the past (bar one situation).  But with the advent of computer seeding, theoretically a team could schedule a 15 game season composed only of games against these three teams ... throw in Lutheran (coed) and another coed team ... and have a decent computer ranking ahead of teams that play the game seriously.  It could become an issue I suppose...

Perhaps the old rules have an application here... maybe we shouldn't be counting games against teams-not-playing-for district as games, and they should not be a part of the computer ranking... just a thought. 

Thanks and regards.

[soccermomalways]

The only 2 teams that Patrick Taylor plays in their district is Haynes & Thomas Jefferson. They play each of those teams twice. They also participated in a tournament at Fisher HS and they played Thomas Jefferson & Fisher (also in their district). Taylor does not play International HS of New Orleans nor do they play NOMMA.

[time2retire]

Covenant Christian (houma) does not play in a district

[p_malinich]

Dec 15, 2014 20:27:58 GMT -6 nolapelota said:

This issue is apparently unique to D-III.  I believe it would be far better to address it now rather than when playoffs roll around. 

I just cannot wrap my mind around the concept that a team not-playing-for-district honors, or a team not even listed as being in a LHSAA district, can end up highly ranked in the computer-seeded playoffs.

Here are three schools , (1) Patrick Taylor, (2) International H.S of New Orleans, and (3) New Orleans Military and Maritime Academy.   Of these three only Patrick Taylor seams to be assigned to a soccer district according to the LHSAA site ... But Pat Taylor only plays a few games and does not play a district schedule, never has.  NOM&M also only plays a few games, and is apparently not assigned to a LHSAA district at all.  Yet both of these team's games count as "varsity games," for the purpose of computer ranking, and they are eligible to be seeding into the top 32 for the playoffs by the computer? (Even though this is "unlikely" to happen, it doesn't mean it couldn't happen)

But the real kicker is International H.S.  They are apparently not assigned to a LHSAA district.  Even though they have three "district" games listed on their schedule, they are obviously not playing a district schedule ... yet come playoffs, they could possibly end up in the top 16 computer ranked teams based on their results to date and their upcoming schedule ... which includes multiple "varsity" games against ... Patrick Taylor and NOM&M.

I am pleased that these new programs are coming into the system. However, I still wonder why these teams are regarded as "varsity" teams by the computer, and why they are eligible to be seeded into the playoffs without facing a district schedule.  International could end up higher ranked than several really good teams that played a real schedule. 

Can someone enlighten me?  Please tell me that this has been thought out.... because I don't think this problem exists in Divisions I and II. 

It looks like International is officially included in Haynes' district. They are not playing for honors, but they are assigned to the district. NOMMA still appears to be district-less. Here's the current list in the handbook.

Clark, J.S.-Not honors
Fisher
Haynes Academy
International of NO - Not Honors
Jefferson, Thomas
Lusher Charter
Newman, Isidore
Taylor, Patrick F

Maybe Taylor & Fisher should also be listed as NH...

[p_malinich]

Dec 17, 2014 9:07:02 GMT -6 time2retire said:

Covenant Christian (houma) does not play in a district

They are assigned to III-9 with:

Covenant Christian
Ecole Classique - Not Honors
Houma Christian
Lutheran
Met. Pk. Country Day
Ridgewood
St. Martin’s

Maybe they should be listed as not honors, but they are assigned to a district.

[pOkLE]

Dec 17, 2014 9:17:11 GMT -6 p_malinich said:

Dec 17, 2014 9:07:02 GMT -6 time2retire said:

Covenant Christian (houma) does not play in a district

They are assigned to III-9 with:

Covenant Christian
Ecole Classique - Not Honors
Houma Christian
Lutheran
Met. Pk. Country Day
Ridgewood
St. Martin’s

Maybe they should be listed as not honors, but they are assigned to a district.

Grant is assigned to our district but I don't think it's listed anywhere. They are not competing for district honors but do count for power points (per LHSAA--I've asked multiple times).

[p_malinich]

Dec 17, 2014 9:20:16 GMT -6 pOkLE said:

Dec 17, 2014 9:17:11 GMT -6 p_malinich said:

They are assigned to III-9 with:

Covenant Christian
Ecole Classique - Not Honors
Houma Christian
Lutheran
Met. Pk. Country Day
Ridgewood
St. Martin’s

Maybe they should be listed as not honors, but they are assigned to a district.

Grant is assigned to our district but I don't think it's listed anywhere. They are not competing for district honors but do count for power points (per LHSAA--I've asked multiple times).

I see them listed in your district in the Handbook.  I can't put a link because it's downloading a PDF to my C drive every time I open it.  But go to LHSAA & click on Handbook & then click on very last item - Appendices -Districts by Sport and Sample Power Rating Calculations.

Here's what I see for II-3:
Bolton
DeRidder
Grant
Leesville
Peabody
Tioga

So Grant is included, but probably also should be listed as NH (not honors).

[soccermomalways]

I know in the past Patrick Taylor hasn't played for district honors and I cannot imagine that it's any different this year but I really don't know. I'm looking at the district list online as opposed to the handbook. The list online doesn't include International HS or Clark but it does include So. Plaquemines. It also does not indicate anything about which teams are playing or are not playing for district honors.

[nolapelota]

Dec 17, 2014 9:20:16 GMT -6 pOkLE said:

Dec 17, 2014 9:17:11 GMT -6 p_malinich said:

They are assigned to III-9 with:

Covenant Christian
Ecole Classique - Not Honors
Houma Christian
Lutheran
Met. Pk. Country Day
Ridgewood
St. Martin’s

Maybe they should be listed as not honors, but they are assigned to a district.

Grant is assigned to our district but I don't think it's listed anywhere. They are not competing for district honors but do count for power points (per LHSAA--I've asked multiple times).

Well if this is the policy ... I guess we live with it.  But this is a change from the last few years and it is going to further distort the computer rankings.  Remember that a win against Patrict Taylor gives a team the same 5 points they would get for a win against Jesuit. 

RE: District III-10:

• J.S.Clark has a schedule posted that lists three games total (I didn't even know they had a team...this is an inner city school that does not have much of an athletic program.)
• Fisher does not have a schedule listed with the LHSAA.  They have not really had a program for the last 2-3 years. I don't think they were ever a part of the district meeting(s) and if they are playing any games at all, they are the pretty much the equivalent of pick-up playground games. 
• Patrick Taylor has never played for district honors.  Haynes does NOT have varsity games against Pat-T  Those Pat-T games are on Haynes' JV schedule ... but other teams do list games against Pat-T as "varsity."
• International must have been assigned to the district recently.  They are a decent size school and it looks like they will become a real soccer program as they are playing a full schedule with at least some respectable teams on it. 

My opinion is that the computer rankings are distorted enough without including games against teams "not playing for district."  I also believe that primarily coed teams such as Lutheran (not talking about real programs that have some elite girls... such as Westminster fielded a few years ago) ... should also not play-for-district and those games should not be for computer ranking.  But... whatever...  

[p_malinich]

Dec 17, 2014 9:53:55 GMT -6 nolapelota said:

Dec 17, 2014 9:20:16 GMT -6 pOkLE said:

Grant is assigned to our district but I don't think it's listed anywhere. They are not competing for district honors but do count for power points (per LHSAA--I've asked multiple times).

Well if this is the policy ... I guess we live with it.  But this is a change from the last few years and it is going to further distort the computer rankings.  Remember that a win against Patrict Taylor gives a team the same 5 points they would get for a win against Jesuit. 

This argument just doesn't work for me, but it keeps getting made time & again.  Yes, the statement is true, but who would want to schedule a win-less team for that reason???

Here are the facts around PR cutoffs if they had been in place last year:
DIII: 6.4
DII: 7.3 (for 24 teams) or 6.1 (for 32 teams)
DI:  10.3

Soooo playing a winless team earns me 5 points and KILLS my power rating (because 5 points is less than all of those cutoffs) and never gets me into playoffs.  Why are we worried that someone will do that??

Yes, they could play each other and give each other 3 wins each & all of a sudden they make playoffs.  Except they don't meet the 15-minimum game requirement.  So they get dropped to the bottom.  And a team that went 0-15 would qualify ahead of them.

Just not seeing the risk on this....

[raiderfan]

Yeah, I don't see this as a big deal, mainly for the reasons p_malinich stated. If you're not a strong program, you're probably not going to win enough games to get your PR ranking up. And, if you "only play a few games", you could only make the playoffs after all other teams that played a full schedule had first consideration.

If you're an established program, playing a bunch of games against weaker programs that have few if any wins will not help you with your power ranking. It won't hurt TOO badly, which is good, because you don't want other schools to be avoiding the newer or less-established programs like the plague, otherwise new teams would never get a chance. But you don't want them to be able to pad their resume by only playing the little guys. I think the PR formula at least tries to strike that balance.

I know you see this as a big concern, nolapelota, but I just think it's unfounded. As an example, Runnels plays Lee Magnet later, and they're a new program just trying to get started. Even if Runnels wins that game by a big margin, it will probably lower their PR slightly, and by the end of the season, their losses against teams like U-High and Episcopal Acadiana will count more than a win against Lee.

[nolapelota]

Perhaps the problems with this type of program are more obvious in D-III and thus are not as important. 

But...I don't understand why the facts of the results of the LHSAA basketball computer rankings are not of more concern to us ... and I don't understand why the problems with the theorectical computer rankings the last two years seem to have been ignored (and I'm not talking about the final rankings that included the results of the playoffs which correct some of the more egrious errors, but the ones that would have seeded the playoffs...).  

But one problem with the theorectical rankings the last two years that will be again be present this year is a regional bias in D-III.  This is not a conspiracy, but is simply a result in a flaw in the system and the geographical distribution of top teams, thus the comparative strength of W-L records and schedules.  Our program rankings deal not with a single game such as one against Patrick Taylor vs one against Jesuit... the rankngs deal with a set of schedules. 

What has happened in basketball is that the weaker teams have begun to more exclusively just play each other, leaving the stronger teams to only be able to fill their schedules by playing other strong teams.  Well, similar records will rank the top team from the weaker set the same as the top team from the stronger set.  And all the basketball coaches know this and many are scheduling their season to try and get a playoff game on their home floor...to the detriment of the sport.

Let's see if I can explain further:  

Suppose you had a LHSAA "district-X" composed of (1) Man-U, (2) Bayern Munich, (3) Real Madrid, (4) Ajax, (5) Liverpool, (6) AC Milan and (7) Juventus who played strictly a double round robin against each other with the results ranked as per our computer probram.   

Over in "district-Y" were these teams: (1) Lutheran, (2) Clark, (3) Patrick Taylor, (4) International, (5) Houma Christian, (6) Red River, and (7) Ridgewood who also played a double round robin against each other. 

Guess what, the top teams from the two districts would look similar to the computer..actually the winner of district-Y might be ranked ahead of that of district-X.  So what?  Just theorectical?  Nope... this phenomena was pretty obvious the last two years in our theorectical computer rankings and will be obvious again this year. 

But it is what we have.  Now lets see if there is a way to improve it.  How will be know if a tweak will improve the computer?  By comparing it with the coach's poll of course. Oh... wait ....!!

[raiderfan]

I agree that it can be hard to compare fairly, when teams have very different types of schedules. Some of the teams in larger districts who play a double-round-robin may not play much out of district. III-6 only has five teams this season and only play each other once. So that's four district games, meaning you need at least 11 other non-district games.

It's not perfect, and will probably be tweaked over the years. I don't think it's all that bad, though. The coaches' poll is not a perfect season, either, since it depends on a relatively small number of coaches who can't possible know the strengths of every team in the state.

You keep bringing up what's happened in basketball, but since I don't follow that sport, it doesn't mean much to me. Do they use the same PR calculation method as soccer?

[soccermomalways]

Nolapelota, I know that there were 2 Haynes seniors that are definitely varsity players that played in the first game against Patrick Taylor and 1 of those seniors played in the second game against Patrick Taylor. I'm pretty sure the second game was either played mostly by backup players or the JV team but I'm pretty sure they're were several varsity players in the first game. Not that it really matters because either way Patrick Taylor gets valuable experience playing Haynes.

[p_malinich]

Dec 17, 2014 9:53:55 GMT -6 nolapelota said:

Dec 17, 2014 9:20:16 GMT -6 pOkLE said:

Grant is assigned to our district but I don't think it's listed anywhere. They are not competing for district honors but do count for power points (per LHSAA--I've asked multiple times).

• Patrick Taylor has never played for district honors.  Haynes does NOT have varsity games against Pat-T  Those Pat-T games are on Haynes' JV schedule ... but other teams do list games against Pat-T as "varsity."

Now this raises an interesting question as to how Patrick Taylor reports those games.  Since both schools have to report a score for it to show up, I'm thinking that it minimizes the risk of it being recorded incorrectly.

That said,  on LHSAA site, Patrick Taylor shows varsity games against Thomas Jefferson (2), Shaw, Riverdale (2), Lutheran (2), and Houma Christian (2).  2 of those games were in the West Jefferson tournament.

[soccermomalways]

I'm not sure who does the reporting for Taylor but I can certainly find out. Thomas Jefferson, Riverdale, Lutheran and Houma Christian are on the schedule twice and Taylor played Fisher,Thomas Jefferson & Shaw in the West Jefferson tournament. Shaw is not on the schedule other than the tournament.

[time2retire]

Covenant Christian from Houma does not play for honors