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Post by beauchenecoach on Jan 1, 2015 22:50:36 GMT -6
also dont don't see catholic breaking up... Holy cross, Rummel, and shaw will play up. Adjusting that Bf district to merge with some of the EJ district or all of it. Will Shaw be able to play up from DIII to DI? Or would they be playing up into some sort of 6A football class? I'm sure the Catholic League will stay together as best as they can. I expect the same for the girls' side; it might make geographic sense to put Chalmette or some of the Jefferson Parish schools with them, but none of the teams involved want that. And it's the same for the boys. Divisions can play up where they want. Classifications have different rules because of football issues. But divisions can always play up... As long as both genders do it.
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Post by beauchenecoach on Jan 1, 2015 23:01:49 GMT -6
The main thing is...
Teams, schools and principals want LESS district games and more choice in who they schedule! This has been made known in all sports ans for some time and that's why it's changing. District titles are nearly meaningless esceor for rivalry like trophy games. That's it. And it's even more meaningless now with power ratings. I wouldn't expect many districts to play more than one round from after this year on... Sure a lot of rivals will play twice still... But no district will force teams to okay more than once anymore ans I'm sure LHSAA will,never come out with districts like this forcing you to play teams you don't need to, teams who could kill your power ratings depending on your teams place on totem pole and what their goals are (make playoffs, higher seed in playoffs or going for a top seed). Like I said, times are changing and have been for sometime. Those who don't change, get left behind. I think you may notice this at the end of this season... Further explanation may be needed, but I'm not saying it until end of year and after seeing seeds and results of this first year of power ratings.
Best thing about this year... EVERY GAME MATTERS! That's the one thing all coaches I've spoken to have said and all of us, to a man, love this aspect.
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Post by kevin on Jan 1, 2015 23:17:40 GMT -6
Will Shaw be able to play up from DIII to DI? Or would they be playing up into some sort of 6A football class? I'm sure the Catholic League will stay together as best as they can. I expect the same for the girls' side; it might make geographic sense to put Chalmette or some of the Jefferson Parish schools with them, but none of the teams involved want that. And it's the same for the boys. Divisions can play up where they want. Classifications have different rules because of football issues. But divisions can always play up... As long as both genders do it. That's not what the handbook says (emphasis mine): 18.3.3 A school may elect to play in the next higher division if it submits a written declaration to the LHSAA by 12:00 noon on the day of the first classification meeting in a classification year. 1. The school shall play in the higher division for the next two years. 2. Schools that have both a boys’ and girls’ team, shall declare to play in the higher division for both sports.
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Post by beauchenecoach on Jan 1, 2015 23:26:51 GMT -6
Divisions can play up where they want. Classifications have different rules because of football issues. But divisions can always play up... As long as both genders do it. That's not what the handbook says (emphasis mine): 18.3.3 A school may elect to play in the next higher division if it submits a written declaration to the LHSAA by 12:00 noon on the day of the first classification meeting in a classification year. 1. The school shall play in the higher division for the next two years. 2. Schools that have both a boys’ and girls’ team, shall declare to play in the higher division for both sports. I wonder if that was changed when they had Thomas Jefferson in Div I a couple years back? Cause it used o not say that, but that could,have been an executive change... But it def wasn't a voted up change in section 18 in the last few years.
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Post by pOkLE on Jan 2, 2015 8:55:21 GMT -6
When is LHSAA meeting to decide this?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2015 10:02:22 GMT -6
I'm not opposed to getting rid of districts. As long as the power ratings reflect strength of schedule. That way teams aren't punished for playing stronger opponents.
Only thing about getting rid of districts that bothers me is individual player accolades. No 'all district' teams. Granted with some districts (with 3-4 teams) they can become comical.
Much like the all metro/parish/region teams....sportswriters with no real knowledge of player quality due to lack of coverage. (Or general ignorance.)
Not having districts will not hurt the local rivalries in my opinion. Shreve will likely always play Magnet, Loyola, Byrd, etc.
Definitely like the idea of a 24 team playoff bracket.
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Post by Waraz on Jan 2, 2015 10:13:58 GMT -6
No districts sound good. Rivalries will still be there. And who's to say that teams can't create their own "districts"? Get your 8 teams in your area, regardless of their division, and play everyone one time. Have a table and declare an area champion. It could easily be done.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2015 10:24:04 GMT -6
Another issue that needs to be looked at is the number of games. I know there are limits on games/tournaments but playing 4-5 games in a 7 day period is criminal.
I know the season is short, but cramming in that many games in a short season isn't good for the players. Physically as well as academically.
I know everyone enjoys the tournament atmosphere, but, if a team schedules a tournament, then (at a minimum) that should be the only allowable competition for a 7 day window.
Tournaments aside, I think a maximum of two games per week makes a lot of sense.
After all, the NCAA is looking at this issue right now for soccer. By lengthening the season, that means less time spent away from classes, adequate player rest and more meaningful training/games.
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Post by kevin on Jan 2, 2015 10:56:53 GMT -6
When is LHSAA meeting to decide this? The convention is Jan 28-30.
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Post by beauchenecoach on Jan 2, 2015 12:02:25 GMT -6
When is LHSAA meeting to decide this? The convention is Jan 28-30. January convention items The convention is Jan 28-30. Principal meeting so make sure you educate your principals on the 4 soccer items... Semifinal Home Team one is hidden in section 6 (I think) dealing with playoff semifinal home team always being the better seed. Every football coach I spoke to along with soccer Cosch agrees 100% with this proposal. Every team will have had at least 1 home game by that point anyway. No more 5 seeds hosting 1 seeds in semifinals or 9 seeds hosting 4 seeds. the 3 in section 18 all should pass easily... White Jersey rule? Get rid of it! It made the agenda so get rid of it! Even if you somehow like the rule, think of the other 99% of us that doesn't. Yiu can still wear your solid white with not strioes looking pajamas every home game. Just vote it out so those of us who want to be soccer teams ans,oil like them in our real school colors can do so at home! And if there is a conflict... Home team changes! Get that rule out of here! And don't fall for the threat of NFHS vote. First of all, who cares? Second of all... We have plenty of exceptions to their rules already. This one won't be the one straw to break the camels back! 4 divisions... No explanation needed... Read the thread. We need this for balance ans growth. Plus for the guys who hate "MORE" playoff teams... There isn't a single extra playoff team. Just one more state title for each gender... Which means more $ for lhsaa also so it's passing! mercy rule- take the doubt out and take the feelings out of it. Score 8 (or get 8 goal lead) before half or during second half and it's over! No need to talk about it, tippy toe around it. It's a varsity game and your varsity should,play and work on finishng or do whatever and not play keep away and embarrass the team. Plus, for the coaches who say, please don't do that to my team, just play us like you wouls play STM or Vandebilt... There is no reason to say it... 8 goal lead=game over! vote it in people!
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Post by coachray40 on Jan 2, 2015 12:40:18 GMT -6
Another issue that needs to be looked at is the number of games. I know there are limits on games/tournaments but playing 4-5 games in a 7 day period is criminal. I know the season is short, but cramming in that many games in a short season isn't good for the players. Physically as well as academically. I know everyone enjoys the tournament atmosphere, but, if a team schedules a tournament, then (at a minimum) that should be the only allowable competition for a 7 day window. Tournaments aside, I think a maximum of two games per week makes a lot of sense. After all, the NCAA is looking at this issue right now for soccer. By lengthening the season, that means less time spent away from classes, adequate player rest and more meaningful training/games. Hall Im mostly with you on this. The growing trend to have tournaments with 3, 4 or 5 games in one day is a bad one. yes, Ii know many schools use the tournaments as their main fundraisers, but too many times we see $ more than proper player participation. And the excuse that "the games are shortened, so it doesnt matter" is lame. Tournaments need to be either reduced in the # of participating teams, set up in more multiple flights, or spread out over longer perios of time. I'd like to see tournaments get set up over 3-5 day periods where the teams could get 1 game a day max. We have gone to this in LSA--no tournament in club soccer EVER requires more than 2 games in one day. Dont understand why we have something different on the other end of the spectrum for HS. Im all for fewer games as well, but I dont think we should start legislating that away just yet. Weather related concerns and the different ways coaches deal with that could come back to bite you. Last two weeks of January are always crammed with district rainout makeups. I think we are on the right track to eliminate that though--the switch to a 4 Division system will reduce district size and the requirement for a gazillion district games. Once everyone starts to understand the powerpoints system, there will be a reduction in the number of games as well. As Chad mentioned (and the best point made yet) in a post above--you will schedule according to your place on the totem pole and what your goals are: 1) ensure a high/home seed throughout the playoffs, 2) trying to get a better seed, or 3) just trying to make it into the playoffs. With those goals, coaches should be trying to figure what the "acquired points per game average" is with their opponents. Playing more games ultimately makes it more difficult to reach those goals. At the same time, this is why LHSAA put the 15 game minimum in place so teams couldnt just get a bunch of easy points from weak opponents. Playing about 18 games will be the best way to meet the APPG avg you'll need for placement in the playoff bracket. The kicker to that is that you may have to get that same powerpoint magic number with fewer playoff places in your division next year
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Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2015 13:03:38 GMT -6
Great points Ray.
In no way am I suggesting shortening the season. If anything, I would be in favor of adding another 2-3 weeks...just to spread the games out. For reasons I stated earlier.
I'm just against playing more than 2 regular games a week. And, if it is a tournament, a maximum of 2 games per day and 4 for the total. When you play that many games, it becomes a test of endurance..and a recipe for injury.
I find it interesting (and this applies to college as well) that you have cross country in the fall, followed by an indoor season and then outdoor track...these athletes are therefore competing and training the entire school year. Yeah, I know that certain athletes play football in the fall and outdoor track in the spring.
As for power ratings, I'd like to see a formula that takes into account losing to a strong opponent (maybe using goal differential?) Let's say a Shreveport school schedules an Acadiana or St. Pauls, gives them a game but loses, be somehow rewarded for that.
Maybe the system already takes that into account.
I understand why coaches may load their schedule up more on the front end. Still, playing 15-20 total games over a 5 week period can't be good for the players.
As for power ratings,
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Post by coachray40 on Jan 2, 2015 13:06:00 GMT -6
The convention is Jan 28-30. January convention items The convention is Jan 28-30. Principal meeting so make sure you educate your principals on the 4 soccer items... Semifinal Home Team one is hidden in section 6 (I think) dealing with playoff semifinal home team always being the better seed. Every football coach I spoke to along with soccer Cosch agrees 100% with this proposal. Every team will have had at least 1 home game by that point anyway. No more 5 seeds hosting 1 seeds in semifinals or 9 seeds hosting 4 seeds. the 3 in section 18 all should pass easily... White Jersey rule? Get rid of it! It made the agenda so get rid of it! Even if you somehow like the rule, think of the other 99% of us that doesn't. Yiu can still wear your solid white with not strioes looking pajamas every home game. Just vote it out so those of us who want to be soccer teams ans,oil like them in our real school colors can do so at home! And if there is a conflict... Home team changes! Get that rule out of here! And don't fall for the threat of NFHS vote. First of all, who cares? Second of all... We have plenty of exceptions to their rules already. This one won't be the one straw to break the camels back! 4 divisions... No explanation needed... Read the thread. We need this for balance ans growth. Plus for the guys who hate "MORE" playoff teams... There isn't a single extra playoff team. Just one more state title for each gender... Which means more $ for lhsaa also so it's passing! mercy rule- take the doubt out and take the feelings out of it. Score 8 (or get 8 goal lead) before half or during second half and it's over! No need to talk about it, tippy toe around it. It's a varsity game and your varsity should,play and work on finishng or do whatever and not play keep away and embarrass the team. Plus, for the coaches who say, please don't do that to my team, just play us like you wouls play STM or Vandebilt... There is no reason to say it... 8 goal lead=game over! vote it in people! Semifinal seeds--I dont really have an emotional attachment to this one way or the other, so if you say its cool Chad, I believe you. FOR IT
Eliminate the white jersey/socks rule--I believe this is the single biggest setback to HS soccer in LA in the last 20 years. After doing my program startup last year, I had to go back and REBUY white jerseys this season for this. Small school like mine hurts with the $900 we had to spend.....again. Vote this dumb rule out. Like Chad said, if there is a conflict, home team changes...period. FOR IT4 Divisions--so many of you never had to experience the 2 division HS system we had back in the 90's (yeah busters, I've been around THAT LONG!) 5A and 4A were in D1, everybody else was in D2. Its so much better now and this rule change will make the landscape change for the better even more. FOR IT
Mercy rule--Im not sure where I stand on this right now, and Im currently coaching a team that will be affected by this directly. Along with the dominating teams coaches responsibility to not run it up, is the weak teams coach's responsibility to know who he is playing against, how to prepare, and to motivate his players. Coaches can work together to keep this from happening on a regular basis. I had a discussion with a coach that was on the positive side of a 14-0 win earlier this year. I asked him what was up with the result, and he told me that the losing team just quit trying early in the match. He had put in restrictions, moved guys around, used younger players, even tried shooting wide on purpose. He said the other team just gave up and wouldnt try. In my opinion, thats the fault of the LOSING coach. What are you teaching your kids if you are just letting them give up? Your kids need to keep fighting. My ACH team got beat 8-0 by Denham Springs early this year, but we kept fighting throughout the match. They were just better than us, but we kept trying. My kids didnt quit and I was proud of them--and they of themselves. We learned from that--something that has helped us this year. I dont know of ANY coach statewide who would deliberately run a double digit score against anybody... Im just not buying it. I have no issues with calling a coach, letting him know we arent very strong, and encouraging him to "play us accordingly'. His team will get more out of getting in a full game of work in rather than running over us in a 20 minute span. But, if my kids just quit...thats MY fault. No decision on this one. I'll let my principal decide.
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Post by coachray40 on Jan 2, 2015 13:18:23 GMT -6
Im still not sure why some here want a "formula that takes into account losing to a strong opponent"--the current power point system has that: you get a half point for each win that a team that beats you has. Play a game with a team with 20 wins and you get 10 points. Beat a team with only 3 wins and you get 8 (five for winning and 1 point for each win they have) If you beat a 20 win team, you'll get 25 points. You are rewarded every game, with any result, for the quality of the opponent. Play 10 games against 20 win opponents and go 0-10, you still end up with 100 points. Play 10 games with teams that only win 3 games each and go 10-0 you only end up with 80. There is no "gaming the system" or sandbagging. The best way to get into the playoffs and do it to give yourself a good seed is to win and do it playing against good teams...period. I also think folks forget that you continue to benefit from your opponents results throughout the season. At ACH we are still acquiring .5 points each time Denham Springs wins. The reward for playing and even losing to good teams is already there
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Post by coachray40 on Jan 2, 2015 13:44:46 GMT -6
Now, using base geographics as my only guide, here is what I think the Districts can look like, if every school stays in class: D IDistrict 1 | District 2 | District 3 | District 4 | District 5 | District 6 | District 7 | District 8-----District 9 | Airline | Natchitoches Central | Acadiana | Baton Rouge | Denham Springs | Covington | Destrehan | Bonnabel------Brother Martin | Byrd | Pineville | Barbe | Catholic-BR | Hammond | Fontainebleau | Hahnville | Ehret-----Rummel | Southwood | West Monroe | Comeaux | Dutchtown | Ponchatoula | Mandeville | HL Bourgeois | Chalmette----Jesuit | Shreve | | Lafayette | East Ascension | Walker | Northshore | Thibodaux | Higgins----Holy Cross | Caddo | | New Iberia | McKinley | Zachary | Slidell | | N/a-----Shaw | | | Sulphur | St Amant | | St Pauls | | N/a-----Jesuit |
D IIDistrict 1 | District 2 | District 3 | District 4 | District 5 | District 6 | District 7 | District 8 | Benton | Neville |
| Belaire |
| Central Lafourche | East Jefferson | Helen Cox | Parkway | Ouachita Parish | Beau Chene | Broadmoor |
| Ellender | East St John | Landry Walker | Haughton | Ruston | Carencro | Central-BR | Lakeshore | South Lafourche | Grace King | Riverdale | Northwood | West Ouachita | St Thomas More | Live Oak | Salmen | South Terrebonne | ben Franklin | West Jefferson |
| Alexandria |
| Tara | | Terrebonne | | |
| Tioga | Westgate | Woodlawn-BR | | | | |
D IIIDistrict 1 | District 2---District 2B | District 3 | District 4 | District 5 | District 6 | District 7 | District 8 | Bastrop | Bolton |
| Abbeville | Episcopal-BR | Franklinton |
| De La Salle | Bossier | Buckeye | St. Louis | Erath | Parkview Baptist | Independence |
| JS Clark | Loyola | Grant | Notre Dame | Kaplan | Plaquemine | Pearl River | ED White | Lusher Charter | Minden | Peabody | Opelousas | St. martinville | St Michaels | | Lutcher | International HS of NO | North Desoto | DeRidder | Teurlings | North Vermillion | University | | Morgan City | Belle Chasse | | Leesville |
| | West Feliciana | | Vandebilt Catholic | NO Military and Maritime |
D IVDistrict 1 | District 2 | District 3 | District 4 | District 5 | District 6 | District 7 | District 8 | Calvary Baptist | Ouachita Christian |
| Ascension Episcopal | Ascension Christian | Archbishop Hannan | Covenant Christian | Haynes Academy | Evangel Christian | St Frederick | Catholic PC? | Catholic-NI | Catholic-PC? | Northlake Christian | Houma Christian | Isadore Newman | North Caddo | Rapides | Lafayette Christian | David Thibodaux | Christian Life | Pine | Patrick Taylor | Lutheran | Red River | Glenmora | Opelousas Catholic | Episcopal of Acadiana | Dunham | Pope John Paul II | Riverside Academy | Metairie park Country Day | | Menard | Westminster |
| Lee Magnet | St Thomas Aquinas | St Charles | St Martins | | Grace Christian | |
| Runnels | | Thomas Jefferson | |
3 and 4 could combine to form one district. If not, Cath PC has history of being in distinct with Opelousas Catholic and Westmimster in major sports districts before. For girls, 3 and 4 would merge for one less district in girls.
Chad-- I can see pretty much everything you have in D I, II and III provided the school all choose to play upand if the 8 district rule isnt hard and fast. My differences are in D IV. Catholic-PC will stay in Baton Rouge in my opinion. The new Bridge between West Feliciana and Pointe Coupee Parishes makes travel into BTR very easy by way of Airline Hwy. I dont think they want any part of having to try and commute to and from Lafayette. Im not sure those Alexandria schools will want to head up to NELA when there are plenty of options for district play local and closer. OC is a smidge more than an hour from these schools, and that is closer than sending Glenmora to Ouachita parish on 2 lane roads. 1 to 1 1/2 hours to commute for a district game is not that bad in my eyes--It'll take me an hour to get from Gonzales to Parkview Baptist on Monday at rush hour! Im afraid we will continue to see a two team district in NELA--been that way forever and still will. No biggie. And if the concern is OC commuting, just put them in the metro Lafayette district (District 4)as well as Lafayette Christian and Westminster, with the 4 Alexandria metro teams in District 3. Yes it will be 7 teams in District 4, but that will be a super district and it will only require 6 games if they play each other once. Again, its all hypothetical
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Post by copakid14 on Jan 2, 2015 13:49:09 GMT -6
Ultimately though it isn't about losing to a strong opponent, it's losing to a team or beating a team that mathematically looks like a strong opponent (with wins based on their scheduling). I'll use Lafayette on the girls side as an example. They are a top 10 quality team who has played only top 10 teams and lost. If they run the table for the rest of their schedule, they will finish with 7 wins. Or I could play North Caddo who is 5 and 0 against low level teams and will probably finish with 10 wins. The only reward for playing a strong opponent in some cases is a quality game that can give you playoff intensity experience.
My only thought on the mercy rule is that some of these teams are traveling a decent distance even within district. Rough to drive an hour 1 way for a 20 minute game. Shorten halves and use the younger players from the beginning of the game...not at 8-0.
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Post by methuselah on Jan 2, 2015 14:32:41 GMT -6
Very interesting and informative threads.
I don't have a dog in the hunt (so to speak) anymore but it sure was convenient popping over to Baton Rouge for district games. Though to be honest, ED White is probably closer to us than BR and Vanderbilt is probably about the same. I think it just seemed faster going to BR.
One thing for sure, a D-III-5 district with teams like Episcopal BR, Parkview Baptist, Plaquemines, St Mikes, University and West Feliciana would be a very stout district.
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Post by SFC Retired on Jan 2, 2015 15:11:15 GMT -6
I don't see the point of extending the season at all. If we did that it would affect the club players and softball players who play soccer. I know some teams are club heavy and yes I can see a coaches point on not playing 20-25 games, obviously you do not want to burn a player out. Now you do have teams that have no club players and play only high school soccer "like mine" so of course I'm going to play as many games as possible . I like the fact that there are many tournaments to choose from. I couldn't see playing in the same tournament every year against the same teams . I like the fact that I can rotate tournaments every year and try a new one out.
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Post by kevin on Jan 2, 2015 16:10:52 GMT -6
Im still not sure why some here want a "formula that takes into account losing to a strong opponent"--the current power point system has that: you get a half point for each win that a team that beats you has. Play a game with a team with 20 wins and you get 10 points. Beat a team with only 3 wins and you get 8 (five for winning and 1 point for each win they have) If you beat a 20 win team, you'll get 25 points. You are rewarded every game, with any result, for the quality of the opponent. Play 10 games against 20 win opponents and go 0-10, you still end up with 100 points. Play 10 games with teams that only win 3 games each and go 10-0 you only end up with 80. There is no "gaming the system" or sandbagging. The best way to get into the playoffs and do it to give yourself a good seed is to win and do it playing against good teams...period. I also think folks forget that you continue to benefit from your opponents results throughout the season. At ACH we are still acquiring .5 points each time Denham Springs wins. The reward for playing and even losing to good teams is already there As copakid pointed out, the formula doesn't distinguish between a team with 10 wins against terrible teams and 10 wins against good teams. Nor does it distinguish between a team that goes 10-0-0 and one that goes 10-10-0. Most of the time the power ratings aren't going to be too far from what the coaches' seeds might have been--though I do think a few teams from the northern and western parts of the state will be ranked a little too highly. But there are going to be a few outliers across the divisions, both boys and girls, and that will be unfair to them and their first-round opponent. Watch the Lafayette girls wind up as a 22 seed and put a whuppin' on someone.
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Post by chelsea007 on Jan 2, 2015 21:45:38 GMT -6
Beating a 6-14 team counts more (11 points) than losing to a 20-0.team (10points). Under the 3,2,1 format, you would get 9points and 11points respectively. This just seems more accurate to me.
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