warrior16
Data Expert
Michael Stein - Volunteer Assitant
Posts: 2,169
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Post by warrior16 on Jan 24, 2015 18:39:15 GMT -6
Yes, you will just be seeded behind all the teams that have met the 15-game minimum. The only teams that you could be seeded ahead of in that case would be other teams that qualified for the playoffs but didn't meet the 15-game minimum.
The only way a team with a PR outside of the top 32 can qualify for the playoffs is by being a district champion, and that is very unlikely to happen.
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Post by theirishman on Jan 24, 2015 18:44:37 GMT -6
The #23 team would drop to bottom of list if they don't have 15 games. However, if they win their District, then they only drop to the bottom of the playoff teams. I don't think they will so they would drop to the 50's and #33 would move into #32. No, this wrong. (sorry Paul! ) They are in playoffs if they are in top 32... They just drop to behind all those who have 15 or more games. So, if you only play 1 game in the season and lose to Denham Springs (or anyone with a bunch of wins) you would get in the playoffs. Is that right?
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warrior16
Data Expert
Michael Stein - Volunteer Assitant
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Post by warrior16 on Jan 24, 2015 18:59:19 GMT -6
I believe this is how the playoff picture would look in this hypothetical scenario, but correct me if I'm wrong:
Archbishop Awesome had an off-year and finished with a power rating of 33, but they won their district. Big Brain Magnet went undefeated and finished with a PR of 1, but they played in too many out-of state tournaments and only got in 13 LHSAA matches thanks to some unlucky rainouts. East Crawdad plays more than 15 games and finished with a power rating of 32.
Before Adjustment 1. Big Brain Magnet (less than 15 games) 2-31 (all teams that have played 15 or more games) 32. East Crawdad (played 15 or more games) 33. Archbishop Awesome (district champion and played 15 or more games)
After Adjustment 1-30 (previous 2-31 seeds all move up a spot) 31. Archbishop Awesome 32. Big Brain Magnet 33. East Crawdad
If Archbishop Awesome had won district but not met the 15 game requirement, it would look like this:
1-30 seeds 31. Big Brain Magnet (better PR than Archbishop Awesome) 32. Archbishop Awesome 33. East Crawdad
Either way, East Crawdad goes home disappointed.
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warrior16
Data Expert
Michael Stein - Volunteer Assitant
Posts: 2,169
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Post by warrior16 on Jan 24, 2015 19:10:41 GMT -6
No, this wrong. (sorry Paul! ) They are in playoffs if they are in top 32... They just drop to behind all those who have 15 or more games. So, if you only play 1 game in the season and lose to Denham Springs (or anyone with a bunch of wins) you would get in the playoffs. Is that right? Don't forget that team would also have to compete in a district to be eligible for the playoffs, so that's at least 5 mandatory games.
But I suppose it could be possible for a 2-2-2 team or even a 1-3-2 team to make the playoffs if they play a team like Denham Springs. Hopefully this is never tested. The other teams in that district would be furious because that would negatively impact everyone's power ratings. I don't think we'll ever have to worry about such a scenario.
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jk52
All-District
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Post by jk52 on Jan 24, 2015 19:31:10 GMT -6
If the Pine HS girls team was playing for district honors and eligible for the playoffs, they would probably end up 0-12 record and a Power Ranking of about 6.25 which would have them ranked about No. 28. If they had only played district games, they would have ended up 0-8 with a Power Ranking around 7.25 and ranked about 18 or 19.
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p_malinich
Data Expert
www.elevenlions.com
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Post by p_malinich on Jan 24, 2015 19:43:46 GMT -6
The #23 team would drop to bottom of list if they don't have 15 games. However, if they win their District, then they only drop to the bottom of the playoff teams. I don't think they will so they would drop to the 50's and #33 would move into #32. No, this wrong. (sorry Paul! ) They are in playoffs if they are in top 32... They just drop to behind all those who have 15 or more games. My bad. Answered too quickly on way out the door. Thanks for correcting.
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Post by beauchenecoach on Jan 24, 2015 20:08:42 GMT -6
If the Pine HS girls team was playing for district honors and eligible for the playoffs, they would probably end up 0-12 record and a Power Ranking of about 6.25 which would have them ranked about No. 28. If they had only played district games, they would have ended up 0-8 with a Power Ranking around 7.25 and ranked about 18 or 19. And then dropped to 32 behind all who played 15 and made to travel to top seed.
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Post by laffysoccermom on Jan 24, 2015 21:29:14 GMT -6
Warrior 16. Love your school names.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I537 using proboards
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Post by Tordad35 on Jan 25, 2015 7:51:26 GMT -6
If the Pine HS girls team was playing for district honors and eligible for the playoffs, they would probably end up 0-12 record and a Power Ranking of about 6.25 which would have them ranked about No. 28. If they had only played district games, they would have ended up 0-8 with a Power Ranking around 7.25 and ranked about 18 or 19. And then dropped to 32 behind all who played 15 and made to travel to top seed. Except for the team that was at 32(of all teams that had played 15 games), and had a power ranking just lower than 7.25! They are now sitting at home. Makes no sense to me.
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Post by laffysoccermom on Jan 25, 2015 9:25:32 GMT -6
Actually I think 32 moves to 31. The only way 32 gets bumped out is if a district champion finishes lower than 32.
Higher ranked teams that play less than 15 games move to bottom and everyone who played 15 and was ranked below them moves up- nobody bumped.
I may be wrong but this is my understanding.
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Post by coachray40 on Jan 25, 2015 10:03:12 GMT -6
Im truly amazed by how so many people have absolutely no clue how this power rating system works, yet they are upset by how it affects thier team.
Simplified explanation:
Each team gets a power rating based on its performance and the performance of its opponents. This number will change throughout the year as each team win or loses, as well as each of its opponents wins or loses
The 32 schools in each division with the highest power rating earn entry into the playoffs.
Teams in that top 32 that play a minimum of 15 games will be seeded 1 through whatever number until all the teams that played a minimum of 15 games are placed in the bracket
Teams in the top 32 that HAVE NOT played a minimum of 15 games will then be seeded into bracket positions AFTER those who did play 15 games
The only additional placement criteria is whether your school won its district. A district champ get automatic entrance into the post season, regardless of power rating, but will be seeded according to power rating and # of games played.
There is only a very minimal chance any school will win its district and not make the top 32 in power rating
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Post by coachray40 on Jan 25, 2015 10:03:53 GMT -6
Actually I think 32 moves to 31. The only way 32 gets bumped out is if a district champion finishes lower than 32. Higher ranked teams that play less than 15 games move to bottom and everyone who played 15 and was ranked below them moves up- nobody bumped. I may be wrong but this is my understanding. Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I537 using proboards completely correct
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Post by loJic on Jan 25, 2015 10:21:24 GMT -6
We could always brin back the loJic ratings Also the new power ratings era already has people who know how to manipulate the system. So it's flawed IMO
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Post by coachray40 on Jan 25, 2015 10:27:47 GMT -6
We could always brin back the loJic ratings Also the new power ratings era already has people who know how to manipulate the system. So it's flawed IMO How so lojic? in the end you'll still have to win games and do it against better opponents to get the necessary PR you'll need to make the playoffs. The only real manipulation of the system that I can see is two teams conspiring to fix a match so that one team can gain point on the back of another. Do you really think there are coaches out there that would do that?
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Post by Tordad35 on Jan 25, 2015 10:28:46 GMT -6
Actually I think 32 moves to 31. The only way 32 gets bumped out is if a district champion finishes lower than 32. Higher ranked teams that play less than 15 games move to bottom and everyone who played 15 and was ranked below them moves up- nobody bumped. I may be wrong but this is my understanding. Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I537 using proboards This was my understanding as well, both from conversations on this board last year, and from how I interpret the rule. beauchenecoach is adament that any team that is in the top 32 of their division (regardless of the amount of games played) are in the playoffs, and that out of those top 32, teams that have not played 15 or more games will be placed below teams that have played 15 or more. He seems to be very confident in his statements, so I can only assume that he has a very reliable source at LHSAA or was/is involved in the develpment of the rule.
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jk52
All-District
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Post by jk52 on Jan 25, 2015 10:35:42 GMT -6
The point I was trying to make with the Pine example is that you do not have to win games to make the playoffs, not a concern where they would have been seeded. A winless team outscored so far by a 73-3 margin (only because of the kindness of opposing coaches) would be in the playoffs just because they are in a district where the other four teams all have more than 10 wins. I just find something not right with that. So, Ray, you do not have to win games to get into the playoffs.
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Post by coachray40 on Jan 25, 2015 10:58:34 GMT -6
I think more of this years complaints about the power ranking system come from a combination of two specific places:
1) many many people simply do not understand how the power rating system works
2) the reality of how some of the more highly regarded programs have scheduled in the past, and their continuation of it, is now catching up with them as they can no longer rely on name recognition to gain higher seeds.
Put these two things together and you have a first year anomoly that will change the landscape as we go foward. Two cases in point: Jesuit and Lafayette. Both of these teams are long time powers and are most likely still among the elite, yet they are not even in the State title discussion because of what can be argued as "poor scheduling". Have they played weak teams throughout the year? No, not really, but the biggest quality of their opponents lays outside the Louisiana State lines. Both teams played very tough teams in MS and TX, yet that doesnt matter here (and I believe rightfully so). So when both teams come back to LA to play, they catch district mandated minnows, and they cannot gain the necessary PR to get up in the top of the bracket. Lafayette may not make the top 16. Jesuit probably gained spots with a win over Brother Martin this week, but the rest of their district schedule just isnt helping them-in fact it hurts. Lafayettes situation is worse.
Now, is that the power rating systems fault? My answer is a resounding no. This system was well publicized with its implementation. Both teams still chose to go seek their best comp outside of LA. I ask ....why? There are plenty of teams here to play. Start with each other, then for Jesuit add a St Pauls, Acadiana, Northlake and Beau Chene. Lafayette, how about Grace King, Northlake, University, Vandebilt, Catholic of BR, Newman, Northlake and Beau Chene. Why not a trip to Shreveport with games against Shreve and Caddo? Saying that there is a need to go out of state to find quality competition is a bogus statement. Eliminate the stupid 2x each approach to district play, add three of these teams I just listed to each of their schedules, and then Jesuit and Lafayette are fighting for the #1 overall seed.
Now am I saying these two teams arent elite....no. First I'm only using them as examples so dont think Im dissing them. I'm saying they, like others, havent changed with the times. Power ratings makes the responsibility of the big boys even bigger as they now HAVE to get out and play each other. I think that is great. Who wouldnt want to see a mid season Jesuit/Lafayette matchup? Of Laffy/St Pauls? Or Jesuit/Northlake, or Laffy'Brother Martin. These types of games are what the paying public wants to see, and yes they involve the risk of losing. I say so what? Laffy losing to St Pauls will have more positive PR impact than beating Comeaux and Barbe for the second time. Jesuit losing to Acadiana would be a bigger jump for them than the second time around win over Shaw or Rummel. Dont go to MS or TX. Stay right here and get bigger games and gain the power rating jump. We will go see them, pay our bucks, give you a big gate and you can continue to have the $ to perpetuate the quality of your programs. The power ratings take away the reputation and put in the responsibility.
My thought is youll see both of these teams play a few more matches against top in state comp next year, especially if either of them get knocked out of the playoffs earlier than normal.
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Post by coachray40 on Jan 25, 2015 11:08:37 GMT -6
The point I was trying to make with the Pine example is that you do not have to win games to make the playoffs, not a concern where they would have been seeded. A winless team outscored so far by a 73-3 margin (only because of the kindness of opposing coaches) would be in the playoffs just because they are in a district where the other four teams all have more than 10 wins. I just find something not right with that. So, Ray, you do not have to win games to get into the playoffs. I am sure there are going to be times when a team with 0 or a few wins is going to sneak in the playoffs because of tough scheduling. I'll offer two rebuttals to what I stated above 1) there are still quite a few big matchups left and a lot of soccer to be played (my own team has a 1/4 of my seasons matches in the next 9 days), so perhaps we should wait to see who actually gets into the playoffs before we get into a full blown dissertation about winless teams. They arent there yet. Also consider that in DII this year there is a 32 bracket in a division with only 39 teams in it on the boys side. thats more of why these types of teams will get in. You wont see this happen in DI or DIII where there are over 50 2) perhaps a better statement by me would be that you'll give your team the best chance to get in the playoffs by winning games and doing it against good opponents. You'll still need to get some results in order to punch your ticket. You cant continuously rely on other teams wins to give you a half point and expect you can get there. Perhaps i wasnt clear on what I meant, though I stand by my assertion
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Post by coachray40 on Jan 25, 2015 12:51:01 GMT -6
And so it changes again. With International beating Houma Christian yesterday, they vault up to #31, forcing Country Day back down to 33. But only by a little bit-Ascension Episcopal is holding the slightest of margins with a 6.41 Power rating, where Country day is at 6.40. Exciting stuff! Read more: laprepsoccer.proboards.com/user/2446/recent#ixzz3PrQ4kj72
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Post by chelsea007 on Jan 25, 2015 12:54:31 GMT -6
Division I looks to have some changes at the bottom as well. It looks to be very tight going down the stretch.
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