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Post by happyjack on Feb 15, 2016 21:24:17 GMT -6
Well, we seem to cover this annually, but I'll post again.
A referee is a punisher, not a preventer. He can't stop a foul from occurring, he can only penalize after it has occurred. If a player wants to hurt an opponent, no referee can stop that. You can't call a foul before it happens, even if you feel it is going to occur - and often you know it's coming. But the laws of the game don't grant referees that power.
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Post by time2retire on Feb 15, 2016 21:32:13 GMT -6
But aren't the "unknowns" out of the game at this point? Surely those who get 7-10 games per round already know this :/
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Post by happyjack on Feb 15, 2016 21:37:57 GMT -6
This is for the parents/fans who think referees are to blame for fouls occurring...
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Post by happyjack on Feb 15, 2016 21:38:51 GMT -6
And I guess the unknowns as well, in the event they aspire to higher rounds
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Post by miraddydad on Feb 15, 2016 22:27:48 GMT -6
It's not a question of unknowns, or anticipating the foul. Yes, PLAYERS are to blame for the fouls they commit.
Referees dictate what will be allowed in a match. This is talked about all the way to the pro levels of the game. If a ref doesn't establish through warnings and calls what he/she will tolerate, things can quickly get out of control, thus eventually ending in injuries to the players. I am not so naive as to imagine a ref can anticipate a foul. But refs do set the boundaries and can do so without being overly sensitive to physical play.
It is a thankless job, and I have great respect for and know several who do the job. You couldn't pay me enough to do it.
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Post by cardsinhand on Feb 15, 2016 22:44:05 GMT -6
It's not a question of unknowns, or anticipating the foul. Yes, PLAYERS are to blame for the fouls they commit. Referees dictate what will be allowed in a match. This is talked about all the way to the pro levels of the game. If a ref doesn't establish through warnings and calls what he/she will tolerate, things can quickly get out of control, thus eventually ending in injuries to the players. I am not so naive as to imagine a ref can anticipate a foul. But refs do set the boundaries and can do so without being overly sensitive to physical play. It is a thankless job, and I have great respect for and know several who do the job. You couldn't pay me enough to do it. Feb 15, 2016 19:38:01 GMT -6 miraddydad said: Terrible center ref. Your comments seem to contradict themselves. Doesn't really sound like great respect.
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Post by happyjack on Feb 16, 2016 5:14:33 GMT -6
If referees can dictate what is allowed in a match, how come after the first time a push is called, there is still pushing. Call it a 2nd time, still happens. Same with tripping, holding, etc. I've seen matches were 30+ fouls were called, so I don't believe the adage. Look at the professional level, you see repeated fouls of the same nature, even after they are called time and again. And what do you hear from the stands? Call it both ways, ref. Never heard a fan yell to their most penalized player "stop fouling." But I've heard the ref criticized repeatedly for calling them for fouls.
Very different view from the pitch versus the stands.
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Post by miraddydad on Feb 16, 2016 5:47:33 GMT -6
Hey, because I say one is terrible doesn't mean I don't respect the position.
Players will attempt to get by with their fouls, but you see a serious decrease in the more physical play when the ref sets the tone.
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Post by laffysoccermom on Feb 16, 2016 7:16:19 GMT -6
I will give you an example of how a ref can cause injuries. Many years ago- tournament in Florida. Ref was from Alabama and so dangerous that I would not let my daughter take the field if he was center.
He called nothing. Players get frustrated and start retaliating- both teams. Fight breaks out- no cards. We should have each had at least one red. My daughter was keeper. She was kicked at least 3 times going to punt the ball. I believe it is very difficult to punt a ball that you don't have possession of. Also if she had time to set up to punt- player should have been able to avoid to the point where she isn't kicked.
In the end, she is kicked in the head while on top of ball. Still no card issued. To this day- I blame her concussion on this ref. Both coaches also agreed that he lost control.
Had he started carding with the blatant fouls that were card worthy, I think her injury would have likely been prevented. I believe the tournament director was going to have a conversation with his assignor and association for his state as well.
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Post by miraddydad on Feb 16, 2016 7:36:47 GMT -6
In fairness, I will say I shouldn't have called him terrible. That makes it personal, which it's not. I should have said that I thought he did a poor job.
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Post by happyjack on Feb 16, 2016 8:06:17 GMT -6
I will give you an example of how a ref can cause injuries. Many years ago- tournament in Florida. Ref was from Alabama and so dangerous that I would not let my daughter take the field if he was center. He called nothing. Players get frustrated and start retaliating- both teams. Fight breaks out- no cards. We should have each had at least one red. My daughter was keeper. She was kicked at least 3 times going to punt the ball. I believe it is very difficult to punt a ball that you don't have possession of. Also if she had time to set up to punt- player should have been able to avoid to the point where she isn't kicked. In the end, she is kicked in the head while on top of ball. Still no card issued. To this day- I blame her concussion on this ref. Both coaches also agreed that he lost control. Had he started carding with the blatant fouls that were card worthy, I think her injury would have likely been prevented. I believe the tournament director was going to have a conversation with his assignor and association for his state as well. So players are not responsible for their own actions?
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Post by happyjack on Feb 16, 2016 8:11:48 GMT -6
Best coach quote ever "he's heen calling that foul all game. When are you going to learn and stop doing it?"
Of course, since it was called numerous times, yet still occurring, even the coach recognizing it, it just shows proof that it is up to the player to change their behavior, not the referee.
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p_malinich
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Post by p_malinich on Feb 16, 2016 8:50:35 GMT -6
If referees can dictate what is allowed in a match, how come after the first time a push is called, there is still pushing. Call it a 2nd time, still happens. Same with tripping, holding, etc. I've seen matches were 30+ fouls were called, so I don't believe the adage. Look at the professional level, you see repeated fouls of the same nature, even after they are called time and again. And what do you hear from the stands? Call it both ways, ref. Never heard a fan yell to their most penalized player "stop fouling." But I've heard the ref criticized repeatedly for calling them for fouls. Very different view from the pitch versus the stands. I am a parent only. Never played. Never ref'd. Never coached (well... once, but is was playground one year when my middle guy was like 7 and they literally had no one). So this is really my advice to parents. Literally the best thing I ever did was to attend HS games where I had no dog in the hunt. And schools playing about which I had no opinion. I sat near the center line between the 2 sets of fans. I watched the game and I listened to those around me. 1) I can't tell you how many times I would hear both sets of fans groan/complain over the same play. It was often and I find that you miss it when you only watch the game from your perspective. It really helped to give me a better total-game perspective. 2) One of the most common is usually a "let them play" by Parent A when Team A gets called for a foul. And then, sometimes less then 2 minutes later, the same Parent A is yelling "Call it both ways" when Team A gets fouled (in that parent's opinion). Didn't they just ask to "let them play"... 3) That list goes on and on ... My middle son (a senior now) went with me to a few neutral games this year and would elbow me anytime he heard that 2nd one (which is my personal favorite inconsistency). And laffysoccermom, I agree with your example that it sounds like a ref that really didn't deserve to be on the pitch. I may have taken a similar position of not letting my child play, but I've seen a lot of games and have never seen one to that extreme. So I don't want to draw any conclusions about the whole by that one extreme example. 1) That said, some burden is on the player in physical situations, too. We were playing a lower quality team once in HS and my oldest takes a hard foul and comes off with a sprained ankle (and I do think it got called, but don't remember for sure). After the game I shared that I couldn't believe that happened. He agreed about the foul. I pointed out that I meant he tried to dribble through 4 guys and drew all of them to him - not a wise choice. Those are just some of my ramblings as a parent of 3 sons - one playing low-end travel (elementary age), one captain of HS D1 team in PA, and one playing in college.
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Post by miraddydad on Feb 16, 2016 9:44:37 GMT -6
I agree. It's not ALL the refs fault, and I never meant for it to sound like that. I also said that players are responsible for their actions.
I guess I just need to shut up and follow the advice I give to parents on the sidelines: Don't argue with the refs. You think you're going to make them change their minds?
I appreciate the forum in which to voice my complaint.
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Post by happyjack on Feb 16, 2016 10:07:00 GMT -6
Hey, we live discussions of this nature. One thing to think about, which Paul talked about, referees are looking at the game with no bias. There are many times when a foul is trifling, and we don't call it even though we see it. there are times when we apply advantage, allowing play to continue. If we were to call ever single foul, regardless of the severity of the foul, you will have action much like American football - 5 seconds of activity and a bunch of stoppage.
Now, at the same time, every time players are in contact with one another does not mean a foul has occurred. A player simply putting their hands on another is not illegal, although what they do with their hands can become illegal. Feet getting tangled, while ugly, does not always signify a foul. Referees are trained to see and recognize the difference, and use judgement to determine. This judgement gets better over time as referees get experienced. I don't expect people sitting in the stands to work through the same thought progression each time something occurs, they just know their little Johnny or Susie was touched, so it must be a foul.
I've had conversations with parents after games about why I did or did not call something, and if they can stop looking at it with emotion and simply look to the laws of the games, they can understand. But as long as emotions are involved (it's my kid so it's a stupid law I was once told), you can't/won't understand.
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Post by miraddydad on Feb 16, 2016 11:10:32 GMT -6
I have a saying: "When it's your kid committing the foul, it's 'Way to play physical!' But when your kid is fouled, generally it's 'Hey that was dirty!'".
For the most part, I think I watch the game with a pretty unbiased view. I just become concerned when it becomes dangerous.
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Post by cardsinhand on Feb 16, 2016 11:22:28 GMT -6
In fairness, I will say I shouldn't have called him terrible. That makes it personal, which it's not. I should have said that I thought he did a poor job. Thank you sir. That's the point I was trying to make. If you would have said "I wish this guy would call more fouls to protect the players." That's a fair, respectful, and legitimate comment. I will add this, in case you are not aware, your coach is the one asking for these referees. I was not the referee last night, but as a referee who saw your team 2x last year, I'm not sure why the complaints. It seems to be your teams style and it works for them. Let'em play and good luck to you guys.
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Post by laffysoccermom on Feb 16, 2016 11:57:48 GMT -6
I will give you an example of how a ref can cause injuries. Many years ago- tournament in Florida. Ref was from Alabama and so dangerous that I would not let my daughter take the field if he was center. He called nothing. Players get frustrated and start retaliating- both teams. Fight breaks out- no cards. We should have each had at least one red. My daughter was keeper. She was kicked at least 3 times going to punt the ball. I believe it is very difficult to punt a ball that you don't have possession of. Also if she had time to set up to punt- player should have been able to avoid to the point where she isn't kicked. In the end, she is kicked in the head while on top of ball. Still no card issued. To this day- I blame her concussion on this ref. Both coaches also agreed that he lost control. Had he started carding with the blatant fouls that were card worthy, I think her injury would have likely been prevented. I believe the tournament director was going to have a conversation with his assignor and association for his state as well. So players are not responsible for their own actions? No- the girl who kicked her is responsible too. However in this case- the ref didn't do his job. Everyone at the game acknowledged it including both coaches and according to the tournament director- the ARs too. Could the result have possibly been the same had he gained control? Absolutely. I also take some responsibility in that at that time, I was team manager. I should have left the field and told the tournament director that play was getting dangerous and asked him to monitor. He actually told me that he wished I had done so. Players will play to the level the ref allows. I have seen numerous refs start calling a game more tightly to avoid loss of control.
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Post by copakid14 on Feb 16, 2016 12:59:15 GMT -6
The game that started this thread was a physical and very fast paced game. The intensity level was high on both sides and there were some difficult decisions for the referees to make. I think they got most of the critical ones right. The question I have is, in a game like this where everyone is going 110mph and there is a lot of hard driven 50/50 balls who do you call the foul on when both players get there at the same time and hit each other in a similar fashion? I think this was the case last night where the referee decided that if it was 50/50 and they both went flying in hard he was going to let them play. There were some dangerous challenges and some hard collisions that I don't think were malicious, just both teams fighting for their playoff lives. Similar aggressive styles of play with neither team backing down.
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Post by time2retire on Feb 16, 2016 13:21:43 GMT -6
The question I have is, in a game like this where everyone is going 110mph and there is a lot of hard driven 50/50 balls who do you call the foul on when both players get there at the same time and hit each other in a similar fashion? I think this was the case last night where the referee decided that if it was 50/50 and they both went flying in hard he was going to let them play. Definitely not easy decisions to make, and of course I wasn't there, but did the players accept his decisions? A good referee can shift gears and adjust to the game, instead of having the game adjusting to him. Last night that game had one of the best available. My only question is if you think the players accepted his "line in the sand"?
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