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Post by futbolislife on Nov 10, 2010 18:19:59 GMT -6
I've debated all day about responding and I feel compelled to address Hall's comments.
1. What you said was "In theory, if you get the ball cleanly then any subsequent contact is legal...as long as there is no malicious intent." A direct quote from your comments. Intent has NOTHING to do with a foul. A foul tackle is either careless, reckless or excessive force. Thats it. Intent means absolutely nothing. And I still stand by my comments. Getting the ball cleanly and then committing a foul is a foul. If your remarks were not phrased properly, then I apologize. I can only comment on what I read. 2. Back to your criticism of the AR on the PK call. Were you standing behind the AR? Are you sure that the AR saw it, 100%? And do you know what the instructions to the AR were in this game. If the CR knew the ref was "young" or inexperienced, or just as part of his normal pregame, he may well have told the AR "no calls in the PA". 3. And as part of the exhausted referees comments, those comments were clearly directed to my friend CoachRay who even touched on that comment in his post. Coach and I have had lots of referee talks in the past and will continue to do so. He and I have had many meaningful discussions on possible solutions and approaches. I have no doubt that Coach knows exactly where I was coming from as I know where he is as well. 4. And to your comment about comparisons of FIFA referees to grade 8s is also misunderstood. Of course I know that the speed, players, etc are different. I'm not a complete idiot (although several may argue that point) but the point is a grade 8 doing his/her first year or in a "big youth game" experiences the same as a FIFA in a world cup. That is, for that referee, that game is relatively as fast to him as a world cup game to a FIFA. It's all relative, of course we cant compare a WC game to a U10 for a given level of referee. Having worked and spoken to many top referees around the country, including FIFAs, they all say the same thing. With experience, the game slows down. Those games we watch on TV, these referees see them in slow(er) motion. I worked top games in my younger and slimmer days. But even that occasional U10 game is very slow to me today. But I promise you, it seemed really fast my very first game. Again, It's all relative.
With that said, I resign back to my hole and promise not to respond to this post again. I have a feeling, I just cant get my points across here. But I feel confident that we as a state are doing the best we can do and continually working to improve the situations. And some can certainly snicker at this, but we have implemented things here that other states have asked about and wanted to copy.
There is no doubt the referee community needs improvement. That is uniform across the entire US. And again, I ask for workable solutions. If people can provide me actual plans that tell me how to fund it and provide the manpower to do so, we'll work to it. That's all we can do.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2010 9:25:18 GMT -6
The attacking team committed the handball offense. Wasn't a situation where the AR couldn't keep up. Perhaps he could've missed it. Wasn't a PK call. The attacking player was on the ground and punched the ball across the endline with his fist.
Had plenty of time to be on top of it. His view was not obstructed.
Was it a big deal? Did it impact the game? Yes. A goal was awarded.
I apologize if my depictions aren't lucid enough.
The slidetackle that was called a foul wasn't. The defender wasn't late. Wasn't reckless. No excessive force. The attacking player tripped over the defender making the challenge.
I understand your points futbolislife. You don't seem to be understanding anyone with an opposing view. My issue is not necessarily with refs missing calls.
It is bad behavior and decision making that are the problem. Is it widespread? No. At least I don't think it is.
All I'm saying is that referees should be held accountable for their behavior. Just as players and coaches are held accountable.
I'm sure it is logistically impossible to grade every ref's performance in every game. But if there are legitimate complaints, especially when games get out of hand, then they need to be held accountable.
And disciplined if need be.
After all, with no accountability in place, how can the standard of officiating actually improve?
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Post by Steven Gerrard on Nov 12, 2010 8:28:37 GMT -6
I think that there is more accountability in place them most people realize. In my area, the officials are watched over, so to speak, by our local assignor. He is out there watching games, he gets feedback from coaches and other officials, and he knows who is doing their job out there, and who needs help. I would guess that it is the same in most areas of the state. Does that mean that you are going to have a "perfect" referee calling a "perfect" game every single time out? No. And, the problem is, you should not expect to. The players are not perfect. The coaching and tactical moves are not perfect. So, why should you expect it from the refs? I can't tell you how many times that after the game I heard complaints about the ref, when my own thought was that he or she had called a good game. Did they call a perfect one? No. And, that is ok.
Case in point. My team was playing in a tournament and I felt that my player had been fouled in the box. No call. After the game, the ref and I discussed it and he explained why he didn't think there was a foul. I disagreed, but I told him that was ok. He had an opinion on the play and there was nothing wrong with that, even if I had a different one. I told the ref that despite our disagreement over the call, that he had done a good job of reffing he game. I meant it, and he knew that I meant it. Of course, others disagreed with me. Oh, he was terrible. But, he wasn't. Even if he missed that call (and maybe he didn't, since I could have been wrong too), he still did a good job.
Another case in point. Last night I showed up early to watch my child's high school game. There was another game going on beforehand. I sat in the stands and watched the game. Over the course of about 3 minutes, there were 4 calls in a row that the fans for one team didn't like. In each case, I thought that the center ref was right on the money with the correct call or no-call each time. But, the parents started up with their opinions. "Come on ref, open your eyes and watch the game." "What are you doing out there, ref?" "Hey, start to earn your money", among other catcalls. Right away I imagined that the parents would go home and start to post on this message board about the terrible officiating and how there is no accountability for the refs. But, the truth is that they, the parents, were wrong every time.
Which leads me to another point, and I have to be quick since I have to iron a shirt and get out of here. The biggest problem with refs is retaining them. There is a lot of turnover. Sometimes you have good refs who are out of the profession in a single season. Why? Because of the mental abuse that you have to endure if you are going to ref a game. You have to have a thick skin and a strong personality to be able to be a ref. Because, trust me, you have to endure a lot. The poster above mentioned that his coach only said that it was a "stupid call" and defended his coach because he was not calling the ref stupid. Trust me, you don't want to have a coach out there yelling stupid anything. How would the coach feel if I started to yell every time I thought he was making a stupid tactical move? Or, that his players were playing poorly? It would get old very, very quickly. We say it over and over again, but when you are up in the stands yelling at the ref, all you are doing is making it harder and harder for soccer as a sport to find officials. And, most of the time, the ref is doing a decent job. Unfortunately, it is just not up to the subjective standards of the fan for the team who is "not getting the calls" that the fan feels that it should.
Lastly, if you feel that a ref was not doing his job, then mention something to the ref assignor. I have done this in the past. Not if I disagreed with a call that involves an opinion of the person at the time. But, if the ref doesn't apply the laws correctly, or if he misses a ton of calls, I will send an email to the assignor, in a polite fashion. They want and need this feedback. This is the only way they can know if there is a problem with a particular ref or not. And, in most cases, they already know. However, there was no one else to assign to the game. We need to remember that.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2010 11:50:52 GMT -6
Great post.
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Post by soccerlogical24 on Nov 12, 2010 13:30:48 GMT -6
-I love a clean, rough, hard fought game. Soccer is a contact sport and I like a Ref that "let's em play".
- My favorite ref's are the one's that came over to the sidelines before the game and said something like "hi I'm so and so I'm gonna try to call a good, fair, clean game but I'm not perfect so just let me know when I screw up".
-Being involved in soccer for the past 12 years with my boys I've seen alot. I've been angry and appalled at Ref's, Coaches, parents, players and myself. None of us are perfect and never will be.
-I've always taken up for the young Ref's, those under 21 and especially minors. NEVER should anyone verbally attack a young Ref, and I've seen some duche bags that have.
-I try to simpathize with the adult ref's but........ Ya'll make it really hard sometimes.
-My issue is with the adult Ref's. I've seen some really good ones, some ok and alot of really bad ones. Too many Ref's have a "because I said so attitude" with a chip on their shoulder and are not held accountable and know it, or at least act like it. Or act like they just don't care and anything goes and bad things tend to happen. Experienced or not a Ref's prioritys should be their integrity to call a unbiased, fair game and to never let a game esscallate because of behavior that should'nt be part of the game, "Gamesmanship", trash talking, dirty tactics on and off the ball or dangerous play. The ref should shut it down with a warning to the players, team captains and coaches and let them know it won't be tollerated. They should also make a huge effort to not let a bad call affect the outcome of a game. If the Ref can't do that then they have no business being one. These are things a ref should bring to the table as an adult human being.
- Consistency with calls is a problem with alot of Ref's. -Is Team Bias a problem? I don't like to believe so but most of the time we play in S. La. I am reminded that it is.
-Only experienced Ref's (with integrity) should do Premire League matches!
-Is reffing a tough, stressful job? Yes, very! But they are getting paid for it Just like we do. Ref's do tournaments for the money. Are they under paid? Yeah, so am I. If I work two 12 hr days in the weather, will my performance be affected? Yes. Is it ok if I do a crappy job because I'm tired and the customer is getting on my nerves?... NO! Why? Integrity and Accountability!
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Post by Sanofi-Aventis on Nov 12, 2010 15:43:38 GMT -6
logical24, just a quick comment. I cannot speak for all refs, but... Parents seem to think there is a bias in some places towards teams from out of town. When I ref games, whether I'm in Laffy, N.O., Mandeville, or anywhere else in the state I could care less where the teams are from. I have no connection to some 14 year old or 18 year old kids whether their from my home base or not. I get no satisfaction from seeing the "local" team win. I'm not reffing LSU! Now that could be a problem.
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dulac
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Post by dulac on Nov 12, 2010 19:05:36 GMT -6
Soccer logic, you are still pointing out problems but giving no solutions. How would you like to see these "problems" remedied?
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Post by coachray40 on Nov 17, 2010 14:15:33 GMT -6
My last Woe is me post of the fall and its from Kohls Cup in Covington. Had a great time with my U9s and the Tournament was extremely well run. There were some delays but mostly it ran on time.
6 out of the 7 games my two U9 teams played were extremely well reffed. The first game for both my teams was done by the same young ref and he was extremely good with my kids--talking to both teams, upbeat and right on the mark. One of my players even came over after the game and said "CoachRay, that ref is cool". Gotta love it.
Our third game was done by a very tired young guy who did what I consider to be one of the best jobs of officiating by making a mistake. As many of you know, its easy sometimes to make an error calling offside if one team is hanging a defender back in front of the goal in a 6 v6 game and you dont immediately see it. This is exactly what happened when we played a ball through to a wide open forward and the ref mistakenly blew the whistle for offside, when in fact there was a defender back right in front of the goal. He realized his error right away, and immediately admitted to both coaches and all the players that he had made a mistake. Because he had made the call already he allowed for the free kick to be taken as the call was made. Everything else was flawless, and he never lost control of the match. I complimented him on admitting his mistake and told him I thought he did well.
Pete Didier did our 4th match on saturday, and despite having been overworked for the day, he did a great job and called a good game.
Now on Sunday, our last bracket game for one team was done by a middle aged woman who did an exceptionally good job and had a good game to ref. She complimented my team on their behavior and sportsmanship, and I made a point to thank her for her professionalism and quality.
Now, with all that good had to be some bad and boy was it in the last bracket game for my Tsunami Blue team. The game was a determiner for advancement for both teams (something refs should know going into a match) and the team from LYSA and ours were evenly matched. We went up 2-0, only to see LYSA come back with 4 unanswered goals and we went to halftime down 4-2. I got my team sorted at half and we came out like a jailbreak for the second half--pounded away and finally scored with 4 to play to make it 4-3. LYSA was getting tired and we kept pushing and got a break down the right side of the field with 20 seconds left. My player crossed the ball into the middle where another one of players gathered it and passed to a third player wide open on the left for what was to be the tieing goal........EXCEPT FOR THE FACT THAT AS MY PLAYER IS KICKING THE BALL INTO THE NET FOR THE DRAW, THE REF BLOWS THE FINAL WHISTLE!!! I looked down at my watch and immediately stopped it at 24:58 and ran onto the field, incredulous as to why this guy stopped play like this. I showed him my watch and he looks at me and says "well I stopped my watch at 25:01--so what?" My players were in tears and absolutely crushed that this result had taken place like this. I have NEVER, in 31 years with this sport, seen any official anywhere end a game like this. While I realize official time is kept by the center official, the spirit of the flexibility of time keeping in our sport is designed to allow the game to play out exactly like it did and finish with that goal and a draw. Unbeleiveable--made even moreso by his callous "I dont care attitude" after the game.
In the end, karma kicked in and we got some huge help from the Mandeville Tigers who won and forced a multiway tie for advancement. We got into the finals on goal differential and won 2-0 against the SAME LYSA TEAM in a driving rainstorm. Refereeing was again flawless and the game well managed and safe.
Over the entirety of the fall, I felt like the referees did a good job MOST of the time. The errors though, were glaring and due mostly, in my opinion, to overwork primarily, and then to simple ignorance of the rules. I think we have some good people reffing, but there does need to be a process to reduce the work load for these folks and also to help them continue to learn.
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Post by happyjack on Dec 2, 2010 21:03:38 GMT -6
The game was a determiner for advancement for both teams (something refs should know going into a match)
Read more: laprepsoccer.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=refs&action=display&thread=12644&page=3#ixzz170uC6SK1 Ray, i never look at brackets or who is advancing in a match. has no bearing whatsoever on how i will officiate the match. i let the teams play dictate how i call the match. very few experienced officials have any desire to know what the outcome means for one team or the other. As far as the referee calling time when time expired...would you be stating this is the ball was rolling over the touch line for a throw in, or if you score was 7-0 and that "goal" had no bearing on the outcome? i recall a u-19 match i did many years ago where time expired and i blew the whistle, just as a player unleashed a 30 yard shot that blasted straight to the back of the net. it would have been the tying goal and the coach was obviously upset. my reply was much like you received, "sorry coach, time had expired." in fact, there really is no other response, time is up when it is up, there is no requirement to let the current play finish, that is a falacy that many a coach and player thinks exists. some officials refuse to end a match if the ball is not in play, and will wait until a player chases down an out of play ball and puts it back in play, only to blow the whistle as soon as the ball is touched. time is up when time is up...sometimes it works to your benefit, and sometimes it doesn't
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Post by cardsinhand on Dec 3, 2010 10:44:26 GMT -6
some officials refuse to end a match if the ball is not in play, and will wait until a player chases down an out of play ball and puts it back in play, only to blow the whistle as soon as the ball is touched. time is up when time is up...sometimes it works to your benefit, and sometimes it doesn't
I do this so I don't have to go get the ball! Earlier this year, we were winning a game 1-0 and we had to win by 2 goals to advance. With 30 seconds remaining, a thru-ball released one of our forwards on a 1-on-1 breakaway, and she was tripped from behind just as she entered the penalty box. The referee was back at midfield, but he did see the foul, and he blew his whistle. He jogged up to the play, got the ball, set it down, only to realize that in the time it took for him to do all of this, time had just expired. He blew the whistle and did not let our team take the kick, even though she was just about to score when she was tripped, and there were 30 seconds left when the foul occurred. You could argue that the reason time expired before the kick was only because the referee was lagging behind and not up with the play. The idea of not even letting the offensive team take the kick in such circumstances is unbelievable. No one can tell me this was the correct decision - do not tell me "time is up when time is up" in a situation like this. I cannot remember whether it would have been a free kick or a penalty - I want to say that it definitely looked to be in the box but he called it a free kick right outside the box (obviously not a great view from midfield). Of course, we have two or three free kick specialists and always love our chances with such free kicks, and have scored a few this season. (I wanted to know why the defender was not red-carded for the reckless challenge from behind that denied a goal-scoring opportunity, but that's a different issue...) I do believe the laws state the only thing the end of a half may be extended for is the taking of a PK.
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Post by Steven Gerrard on Dec 3, 2010 14:09:47 GMT -6
This gets into the question of whether a ref should add time or not. Do you add time for the team to take the free kick? But for the foul, the attacking team would have been able to take the shot. So, with the foul, you are now rewarding the defending team for making the foul by whistling that time is out.
Lets change the example. Time is running down and the ball is about to go out in the attacking 1/3. The defender, knowing that time is running out, proceeds to clear the ball out of bounds with a huge kick. The ball goes 50 yards into (and maybe past) the next field. By the time the attacking team goes to get the ball and comes back for a throw in, time has run out. Do you blow the whistle right then, on the second that it runs? Or, do you add some time since the defending team is obviously delaying the restart?
Does the ref have discretion to add time to the end of the game if one team is obviously delaying things? Like, subbing out 1 player at a time at each stoppage in play? Or, having the player from the far side of the field come over (at a walk or very slow jog) to take the throw in?
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Post by Ronaldinho on Dec 3, 2010 16:05:26 GMT -6
There is no way logically that the defensive team should be rewarded for denying a goalscoring opportunity. The foul occurs with 30 seconds left, and the 30 seconds tick away in the time it takes the referee to catch up to the players and set the ball down. You cannot tell me the offensive team should not get to take the kick - it's not like the foul took place in stoppage time, there were still 30 seconds left.
I also do not buy the PK v Free Kick concept. Who cares where the foul was, the team should get to take the kick instead of rewarding the defensive team for a bad foul. A matter of feet or inches determines whether you blow the whistle or allow the kick? That simply does not make sense. A free kick is just as much of an opportunity to score a needed goal.
Think football. Last play of the game, quarterback throws the ball into the endzone, and there is obvious defensive pass interference preventing the touchdown catch. The game cannot end on such a defensive penalty. The defensive team does not get to benefit from the foul and win the game - the offensive team gets another play. To me it's the exact same thing as the play I described above - you simply cannot end the game before the kick is taken.
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Post by Steven Gerrard on Dec 6, 2010 15:32:03 GMT -6
This gets into the question of whether a ref should add time or not. Do you add time for the team to take the free kick? But for the foul, the attacking team would have been able to take the shot. So, with the foul, you are now rewarding the defending team for making the foul by whistling that time is out. Lets change the example. Time is running down and the ball is about to go out in the attacking 1/3. The defender, knowing that time is running out, proceeds to clear the ball out of bounds with a huge kick. The ball goes 50 yards into (and maybe past) the next field. By the time the attacking team goes to get the ball and comes back for a throw in, time has run out. Do you blow the whistle right then, on the second that it runs? Or, do you add some time since the defending team is obviously delaying the restart? Does the ref have discretion to add time to the end of the game if one team is obviously delaying things? Like, subbing out 1 player at a time at each stoppage in play? Or, having the player from the far side of the field come over (at a walk or very slow jog) to take the throw in? Bump. I actually would like to get some feedback on this issue. And, whether there is any difference between HS and FIFA on this issue. Thanks.
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Post by furriner on Dec 6, 2010 21:31:47 GMT -6
Bump. I actually would like to get some feedback on this issue. And, whether there is any difference between HS and FIFA on this issue. Thanks. I may be wrong here, perhaps Happy, FIL, CIH or Dulac could answer better, but in HS, assuming there is a stadium clock running, when time is up, time is up: even if the ball is flying towards goal and nobody to block it. Regular soccer, center has time. they decide when there has been ample time played (assuming there has been at least 90). I always get it wrong: can time be added on to just the 2nd half, or MUST it be added to each half (if any is added)?
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dulac
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Post by dulac on Dec 6, 2010 22:29:08 GMT -6
IF, and that's a big IF, the clock operator is knowledgeable of the rules, then when the clock hits zero, the game ends, no matter where the ball is. College soccer operates this way but most of their clock operators know what they are doing. They must know that the clock stops on cards, injuries, when the ref signals, etc. For HS, what we refs usually do is have the clock operator stop running the clock when it hits two minutes. I've yet to meet a clock operator knowledgeable enough to run a clock correctly. I had one promise me he knew what he was doing. I signaled for the clock to be stopped for a card and it kept running. I mentioned this to him at half time and he said he wasn't aware of that rule. So, I like to keep the time on the field. They have good intentions but you are better off entrusting yourself. There should be no reason to "add" time for HS because there should be ball people. Can a half end on a corner kick or a free kick? For sure. However, if a PK is awarded at the end of reg time, then time must be allowed for the PK to be taken.
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Post by happyjack on Dec 7, 2010 20:39:40 GMT -6
it also depends if it is a tournament game or not...in tourneys, there usually is no extension of time due to closeness of match times. Non tourneys, likely you should add time if the game has bearing (league play, etc), but not much if just a normal game on a weekend that has no bearing on anything. age of players also comes into account when making this decision.
a defender kicking a ball 50 yards out of play to kill the clock is a delaying tactic that is not an infringement of the rules, as long as he is in the field of play when he does this and the referee has not previously signaled a stoppage. and it is not a reason to add time at the end of either half.
high school and fifa both allow the extension of time for the taking of the PK. I think college does as well, but I haven't done college in 5 years and haven't looked at their laws since tehn, so i may be incorrect.
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Post by grandpasoccer on Dec 12, 2010 18:54:03 GMT -6
i pay for the pleasure of watching the game, the players, coaches and refs are part of the game, so that gives me the right to critique the ones i pay for. but if i get in the games free i should have no voice.
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Post by cardsinhand on Dec 13, 2010 10:23:37 GMT -6
i pay for the pleasure of watching the game, the players, coaches and refs are part of the game, so that gives me the right to critique the ones i pay for. but if i get in the games free i should have no voice. While I agree with this to a certain point, I pay taxes that employ the judges and law enforcement officers, and there are just "certain things" I shouldn't say to them or in their presence. Oh and they don't have to be vulgar comments. "I pay your salary!" "Are you a crook too?" "Are you smoking the crack you confiscated?" "Bomb!!" You know some comments just don't belong in certain situations. My $.02! Delete it if you must! ;D
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Post by Steven Gerrard on Dec 13, 2010 10:38:29 GMT -6
i pay for the pleasure of watching the game, the players, coaches and refs are part of the game, so that gives me the right to critique the ones i pay for. but if i get in the games free i should have no voice. While I agree with this to a certain point, I pay taxes that employ the judges and law enforcement officers, and there are just "certain things" I shouldn't say to them or in their presence. Oh and they don't have to be vulgar comments. "I pay your salary!" "Are you a crook too?" "Are you smoking the crack you confiscated?" "Bomb!!" You know some comments just don't belong in certain situations. My $.02! Delete it if you must! ;D Whenever I ref, parents are always asking me if I am smoking crack. That includes my wife.
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Post by cardsinhand on Dec 13, 2010 10:45:56 GMT -6
[/quote]Whenever I ref, parents are always asking me if I am smoking crack. That includes my wife. [/quote] Well, she should know you best! And that may be EX-wife if you keep that up! Maybe you should keep her away from the fields by sending her shopping, then just give her the money you make on the match. It may just save a marriage!
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