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Post by Boomer on Jan 6, 2011 10:49:35 GMT -6
Wow... either some of you never played football, or you are unaware of the athletic requirements of that sport. I suggest you go out to John Curtis school (for instance) any summer afternoon and see what those "fat" boys are doing every day in the heat... I guarentee they are doing a lot more than most HS soccer players do every day.
You would probably be pretty surprised about how quickly even those "big fat" players adapt to the game of soccer if they were tasked to do it. It doesn't help the game of soccer to sneer at another sport that is probably the most demanding "team game" in the world.
A great many high schools work out year round... for football. Fat? Many of Curtis' linemen will out sprint some of the "stars" on some very good soccer teams. Sumo wrestlers look fat... how would you like to see a huge, nimble guy dribbling a ball into the box? Or how would you like to dribble a ball toward the box and be faced with four 250 lb, five percent body fat, defensive players, all of whom are faster and quicker than you by a considerable margin?
I've seen it... and if you ever do, it will open your eyes quite a bit.
Regards...
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Post by Tiger4Life on Jan 6, 2011 11:26:25 GMT -6
lets not get into the "shape" aspect of the game; it is about endurance. I have seen many "Football" players i.e. Wrs, RBs run to the sideline and suck up some oxygen after a sprint of 80 yards. They maybe able to outsprint a soccer player after ten yeard but lets do it for 80 to 90 minutes.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2011 11:51:51 GMT -6
Boomer, how do you know I didn't play?
Nobody outside of this country (and many inside it) care for gridiron football.
We have an obesity problem in this country. Football is not a lifetime sport. Many, dare I say most high school players gain massive amounts of body fat when they get older.
I think you are making the grave mistake many "old" American soccer players make....that soccer athletes are somehow inferior to the gridiron types.
I think the typical American soccer athlete is far superior to the types that played in the 60's and 70's. When soccer really was a "niche" sport.
And I can tell you, from experience, that I was hell of a lot faster than the guys that played football at my school. At every distance.
You look at "athleticism" with drink goggles on. Bench press and 40 yd dash times. (Most of which are highly inflated anyway.)
I'm not saying that there aren't true athletes playing football.
I'm just saying that football players are not the epitome of athleticism. Far from it.
You keep touting that gridiron crap like its somehow superior. As if having some outside linebacker playing on a mens rec/intramural team in the 70's somehow gives the sport credibility.
What we need are more technically oriented players who are also exceptional athletes.
We have the most "athletic" soccer athletes in the world. That isn't the problem. (Although the Jim Rome types like to think it is) If it was all about athleticism we would have won a World Cup by now.
The prototypical "soccer athlete" is similar to the elite body types of 400 meter sprinters, 800 meter runners and 400 meter hurdlers.
How many exceptional 400/800 meter guys are 6'5 and 250?
Not a WHO DAT one.
When you're sprinting over and over again for 80 and 90 minutes, bulk becomes a burden.
Cheers!
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Post by Tiger4Life on Jan 6, 2011 11:54:31 GMT -6
Boomer, how do you know I didn't play? Nobody outside of this country (and many inside it) care for gridiron football. We have an obesity problem in this country. Football is not a lifetime sport. Many, dare I say most high school players gain massive amounts of body fat when they get older. I think you are making the grave mistake many "old" American soccer players make....that soccer athletes are somehow inferior to the gridiron types. I think the typical American soccer athlete is far superior to the types that played in the 60's and 70's. When soccer really was a "niche" sport. And I can tell you, from experience, that I was hell of a lot faster than the guys that played football at my school. At every distance. You look at "athleticism" with drink goggles on. Bench press and 40 yd dash times. (Most of which are highly inflated anyway.) I'm not saying that there aren't true athletes playing football. I'm just saying that football players are not the epitome of athleticism. Far from it. You keep touting that gridiron crap like its somehow superior. As if having some outside linebacker playing on a mens rec/intramural team in the 70's somehow gives the sport credibility. What we need are more technically oriented players who are also exceptional athletes. We have the most "athletic" soccer athletes in the world. That isn't the problem. (Although the Jim Rome types like to think it is) If it was all about athleticism we would have won a World Cup by now. The prototypical "soccer athlete" is similar to the elite body types of 400 meter sprinters, 800 meter runners and 400 meter hurdlers. How many exceptional 400/800 meter guys are 6'5 and 250? Not a WHO DAT one. When you're sprinting over and over again for 80 and 90 minutes, bulk becomes a burden. Cheers! thank you
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Post by Boomer on Jan 6, 2011 12:26:29 GMT -6
"Giddy up dobbin, giddyup... don't just lie there and pretend you are dead..."
We are talking Louisiana high school soccer. Most HS soccer teams are composed of moderately athletic guys who have chosen NOT to play football, basketball or whatever, mostly because they are... well... moderately athletic guys.
We are not talking about world-wide, pro-level athletes who are the best their country has to offer. If our country had all those wide receiver-defensive back-linebacker-running back-point guard-second basemen-shortrstop types playing soccer from an early age, the US National team would be in the top echelon of the world... period.
Peripheral sports always attract the marginal athlete first. Only after the sport becomes established do better athletes begin choosing it over main stream sports. High school soccer in Louisiana is still at that level in my opinion, as is the growth of Lacrosse.
This is not to demean our soccer players or their skills. I played high school football (not that much demand for a 150 lb linebacker at my school though), college soccer, ran x-country, high hurdles, 440. But if you think your HS soccer team is composed of the best athletes in your school ... your school has a very enlightened student body.
regards...
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2011 13:11:21 GMT -6
Well, with La high school soccer, you are probably correct on a lot of points.
Soccer being a peripheral sport is highly debatable though. Both on a national level and even the state level. When you look at participation levels nationwide (high school) soccer isn't that far behind baseball.
Gonna have to disagree with you on your "other sport athletes playing soccer analogy" though. Especially when using baseball players. Totally different skil set. And again, fitness levels have to be taken into consideration.
Plus, you forget that soccer is as much a mental game as a physical one.
Not even basketball players run the equivalent of 6 miles a game either.
Soccer players tend to be smaller in stature due to the nature of the game.
I think this adds to the misconception that they are inferior athletes.
If football and baseball players make up the majority of high school rosters, then how can players be considered "moderately athletic"?
True, I think a lot of kids that do play soccer are not necessarily football or basketball type athletes.
Baseball players are specialists for the most part. Most baseball players lack the stamina to play soccer. With a few exceptions.
A kid that loves soccer and isn't built for basketball or football isn't a soccer player "by default" necessarily.
At any rate, we have to get away from this type of thinking. Which, I believe stems from the "old guard" American sports media. As a society, we tend to think bigger is always better.
To play at the highest levels, yes, you need a requisite amount of athletic ability.
But, I would venture to say that even the average La soccer player is an above average athlete. Based on the demands of the sport.
Leo Messi, Maradona, Xavi, etc. would never have made it with that type of thinking.
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Post by loJic on Jan 6, 2011 13:35:12 GMT -6
I went ahead and created another thread for this because it's off topic of soccer players missing practice.
We have now moved on to the "What if" of American athletes and the sports they chose to play.
My two cents. If football athletes played soccer than they wouldn't have been football athletes. Would Reggie Bush be 205 lbs at 5'11 if he didn't play football? I guess we will never know. But would Drogba have been a perfect specimen for gridiron? This is all big "What ifs" The real question is, can we take a football athlete at an age of 13 and mold him into being a soccer player. My guess will be no.
Once again it comes to this. And I believe boomer said this as well. Once we start seeing inner city kids in their bare feet on a dirt field going at it for hours on end. We'll just be at the middle of the ladder looking up.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2011 14:12:33 GMT -6
Lojic, nearly every thread on this forum strays off topic. If it goes on long enough.
Could you explain your last comment?
When you say "inner city" do you mean black? That's a whole ther myth debunking that needs to be done.
If that were true then how did Spain win the World Cup?
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Post by cortex on Jan 6, 2011 14:51:10 GMT -6
aerobic vs anaerobic metabolism;fast twitch vs slow twitch muscle,and the proper proportions of each-thats whats important here. Oh yeah, not to mention the requisite ridiculous skill set necessary to play the game at the highest level.There is not a single football,baseball or basketball player(pro) who could play at the epl or german pace for 1 match. Conversely, there probably isn't a soccer player who could hit a 90mph pitch, run over a 230 lb linebacker or sink 35% of 3 pointers.
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Post by goat on Jan 6, 2011 15:01:23 GMT -6
I have two sons one played soccer, 5’ 9” tall 145 lbs. the other played football 6’ 2” tall 250 lbs. The football player played soccer until age 11 then went to football. He played on the offensive line and his coaches were impressed with his quickness, foot speed, and balance. I told them he got all of that from playing soccer.
The answer is YES a football player can convert to soccer and vice versa. My football playing son played with a kid named Jacob Cutrera, (he plays for the Jacksonville Jaguars now). That kid is 6’ 4” tall and can run forever and is fast. For someone to suggest he couldn’t be a soccer player is just lying to themselves. Look at the German team, tall fast and strong. I agree that when and if the inner city, black athlete ever decides to buy into soccer a lot of our select players now will be just good D1 players sorry but it is true
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2011 15:31:46 GMT -6
Goat, I'm going to agree with you...partially anyway. I think there are a few football players and probably basketball athletes could be elite soccer players.
Provided, if they had the proper technical skill base.
The problems arise when we make blanket statements and assume certain stereotypes.
Speaking of stereotypes, if the inner city black athlete was the answer then that would be the bulk of every Epl and Champions League roster.
But assuming that every defensive back, receiver, running back, et al would automatically make a better soccer player is ridiculous.
It is precisely this type of logic that is the core problem with soccer in this country and especially this state.
Eddie Johnson is a perfect example of an inner city athlete that has underachieves as a soccer player. Marvell Wynne is another. No one can deny that these guys aren't superior athletes.
It's really an apples to oranges argument anyway. Those football players would have to drop 30-50 lbs of bulk to be able to compete from a fitness standpoint.
Different sport. Different skill set. Gotta have more cognitive decision making skills.
Ask guys who have played high level soccer. They'll tell you. Technique and tactical awareness are what separate the good from the elite.
I'd like to see more of our inner city kids take up soccer as well. The desire and devotion to the game would be the successful traits needed. Not just raw athletic ability
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Post by Boomer on Jan 6, 2011 16:14:12 GMT -6
lets not get into the "shape" aspect of the game; it is about endurance. I have seen many "Football" players i.e. Wrs, RBs run to the sideline and suck up some oxygen after a sprint of 80 yards. They maybe able to outsprint a soccer player after ten yeard but lets do it for 80 to 90 minutes. Interesting purely theorectical discussion... but no good athlete will step on a soccer field for the first time and demonstrate the ability to go for 80 mins. Why... because lasting 80 mins. requires knowing WHEN to run or sprint or jog. Most new players exhaust themselves realtively quickly, not because of their VO2 max, or becuase of their pschy endurance, but becaust they react full speed to every and all situations, even when it is not required of them. Here is where learning the game and anticipating when and where to go, at what speed, will allow those inexperienced soccer players to play a full game. This is what happened in our little experiment at Alabama decades ago. By the end of the summer, those big... no... huge... Alabama football players were becoming dangerous...in a soccer sense. (of course "big" in the 1970s was 240 lbs). Oh yeah... that rec/club team i mentioned? On it I played with one of the top soccer players in the world of his time, Porfirio Armando Betancourt, later Herman trophy winner, and World Cup starter for Honduras...6'1" 180 lbs of pure athletic ability. .. goggle him in Wikipedia. It also had Jan Johnson, bronze medal winner in the Munich olympic pole vault and Jonty Skinner, South Aftrica, world record holder in the 100 yd freestyle. Most of us just do not face true top athletes very often ... but if and when you do it is obvious and it is REALLY humbling. Our HS team got beaten badly recently... due partly to a new defensive scheme that was a titanic failure. One ODP player on the opposition scored 3 goals ... but I watched him sprint for a through ball and marveled at his lack of foot speed... yet he could well be an All-state player this year. Put the top Louisiana HS athletes into soccer even relatively late and some of our best HS teams in the state will suddenly look like they are in slow motion. But... soccer in Louisiana will not get those lads away from the other sports for a long long time so it is a moot point. In the meantime, most of our schools will adjust to making the most of the good athletes and players that we have. It's just that we are comparing our best players and coming to the conclusion that they are the best athletes. I used to run the HS 120 yd high hurdles in mid 15s... I thought I was good ... until the District and State meets when the real fast boys beat me by 10 yards in the heats like I was a 5-step hurdler. Regards... PS... notice I measure track distance in "yards" not meters? God I'm getting old... one other thing... about 30 years ago the Minnasota Vikings had an all-pro defensive end who fell in love with marathon running. In two years his 6'5" weight dropped from about 250 to 195..and he was running sub 2:50. He played the next season at that weight and then was given a choice, quit running or quit pro football. Since he was about 35 years old, he quit football.
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Post by soccerislife on Jan 6, 2011 16:23:20 GMT -6
Boomer just gets a kick out of arguing and making his opinion known. If you disagree with the guy, don't argue back. All that comes from it is a fifteen page thread that accomplishes nothing. Just saying.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2011 16:36:34 GMT -6
Don't worry Boomer, I only use meters to sound younger. Only when I got to college did I use the term meters.
I think any player that can partner skill with tactical awareness AND athletic ability will make a better player.
I'd agree that many of our soccer players in La don't fit the conventional athlete stereotype.
Lacrosse is in much worse shape. Probably where soccer was 25 years ago.
You have to have the body, the brain and the skill to make it big in this game.
If it's just about athleticism, why do the teams of club players(mediocre athletes) beat the teams composed of football players?
Those of us who love the game need to shed the "inferiority complex" so many us take on from the infidels.
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Post by Boomer on Jan 6, 2011 16:54:04 GMT -6
LOL Moi? Opinionated? Dogmatic? Argumentative? Moi? Gosh... i thought i was giving a college lecture with numerous bon mots of collected wisdom passed on the the younger generation for their thoughtful consideration. By cracky you young whippersnappers ... just remember your comments about 50 years from now... when you are my age ;D LOL
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2011 17:25:42 GMT -6
I really enjoy your posts Boomer. Even if some of them are 'heretical'.
In the days of the Cold War, athletes in the eastern bloc were 'tested'. Whatever special skills and body type they had dictated what sport they played. A lot can be said about that methodology.
There are different types of athletes out there. I don't think football players in a general sense are superior to soccer athletes.
At a local level it can be argued that the majority of superior athletes choose not to play soccer.
Or even play soccer as their main sport.
And that is because soccer is so underdeveloped relative to the rest of the country.
Even if the mainstream media doesn't cooperate, in certain areas of the country 5,000 people or more will go to a major high school soccer match.
I think if a kid is big, has the genetics, etc. then gridiron may be the right call. The problem is, the overwhelming majority of kids that play high school football just don't have the requisite size/genetics to play at a higher level. When the dad is 5'9 and mom is 5'2, it just ain't in the cards for that kid.
So, why limit yourself from the beginning?
I'm not one of those parents who put my kid into soccer to shield him from that "dangerous, barbaric football". I don't want to brag but to make the point....
Let's just say I don't have to worry about his overall athletic ability. He's played other sports and was physically dominant there. Even going up against bigger, older players and even the "inner city" kids everyone likes to tout.
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Post by Tiger4Life on Jan 6, 2011 18:18:51 GMT -6
Boomer just gets a kick out of arguing and making his opinion known. If you disagree with the guy, don't argue back. All that comes from it is a fifteen page thread that accomplishes nothing. Just saying. Classical... I love your post; that is I why I didnt respond to his last post. I don't believe a point could be made without a manifesto response from him. Any comparison between these type of athletes is comparing apples to oranges
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Post by Tiger4Life on Jan 6, 2011 18:22:02 GMT -6
Everyone makes their arguments and what they believe in...Hall97 great posts. Everyone let's concentrate on what this board is about "SOCCER".
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Post by lvjdad on Jan 6, 2011 21:25:14 GMT -6
Put the top Louisiana HS athletes into soccer even relatively late and some of our best HS teams in the state will suddenly look like they are in slow motion. But... soccer in Louisiana will not get those lads away from the other sports for a long long time so it is a moot point. You disrespect the top LA HS athletes who DO play soccer. Many on the the best HS teams in the state. I know many players on the top teams and they DID play football and baseball and basketball at the top levels (traveling teams, etc.) and chose soccer over the other sports, not because they weren't acheiving, but because they preferred soccer. This means that if you took other top HS athletes from other sports late in their career and put them against the top soccer teams in the state, they would look clumsy and out of shape and lose every game miserably. OK, maybe there are MORE top athletes in other sports, which makes parity more difficult. This will come for soccer when there are city leagues in all the small towns that have bitty basketball and dixie youth baseball and pop warner football. This will come when LSU and all other popular universities have men's soccer programs. This will come when 5th avenue figures out how to sell trucks & drink without TV timeouts. This may not happen for a long while, but those of us who have been bitten by the "bug" can continue to show our support by going to the games, watching it on TV, learning more about the sport and showing respect to the young athletes who play it.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2011 22:02:18 GMT -6
Great post.
I will add though that most of the top universities do have mens soccer.
Most ACC, Big 10, all Big East, Pac 10 schools have mens soccer.
Only the Big 12 and most of the SEC don't.
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