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Post by Boomer on Feb 27, 2014 18:13:19 GMT -6
Forgive me for continuing mention of rules that seem to be misunderstood. But I posted a note on the women's soccer board that time was not stopped during substitution. I received a PM from a member who identified himself as a HS ref in the New Orleans area. He informed me that time was indeed stopped during substitution.
Well, if some HS refs are doing this, it could explain some odd things this year. However, he is incorrect so far as my understanding. I sent him the following note referencing NFHS rules:
RULE 7 TIME-IN AND OUT (see p. 35 NFHS rule book.)
SECTION 4
ART. 1 . . . The clock shall be stopped for an injury, for a penalty kick, for cautioning (yellow card), for disqualifications (red card), following the scoring of a goal and when a referee orders the clock be stopped. ART. 2 . . . The clock shall be restarted when the ball is properly put into play.
Note that there is nothing about stopping for substitution. Indeed a new rule this year allows the ref to stop the clock if he deems a team is deliberately stalling by making excessive substitutions. If the Association is stopping the clock, they are all applying the rules incorrectly. Not the first or last time... I'm open to being corrected, but....
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Post by Steven Gerrard on Feb 27, 2014 18:29:53 GMT -6
Sometimes, just for fun, I will add time when the goalie is holding the ball before a punt. But, I will then subtract time if there is a quick counter attack that makes the game seem like it is moving at a fast pace. Especially if the hooligans are making me run.
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Post by time2retire on Feb 27, 2014 22:45:09 GMT -6
We have several issues at hand when this is brought up:
Read into the Rule that you posted. I'll quickly point to the last reason in Art 1 "when the referee orders the clock stopped"
A point of emphasis was excessive substitution to consume time remaining on the clock. This was to be countered with the referee simply stopping the clock if he deems it to be a method of time wasting. It actually allows us a way out of a card and solves the problem with a simple "guys, I have the clock" instead of a caution.
Another thing I would like to point out is that the referee, at any stoppage, may approach the timekeeper and adjust the clock as necessary.
And finally, in HS, the clock starts at 40:00 and works its way down. I must emphasize that in HS there is no concept of "stoppage time" as there is in club ball...the clock is simply stopped and adjusted as necessary by the referee. When the clock hits 00:00, time is up...good, bad or indifferent, this is the way it is in HS ball. Time remaining should never be kept secret with XX amount of "stoppage time".
Allowing a stadium clock to be official solves a lot of problems. A referee's signal for stopping the clock along with three specific instances (goal, card, injury) and one catch-all (referee's discretion) can easily be seen and administered through proper training of clock operators. Too much, you say? If the districts mandated two clock operators for each school to go through a one hour training with a referee representative, it will benefit the enjoyment of all...the time is no secret.
This is one area where a little more effort on the part of both the schools and the referees will benefit the players and spectators (and would make that portion of the game easier on referees as well).
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Post by kevin on Feb 27, 2014 23:47:43 GMT -6
We have several issues at hand when this is brought up: Read into the Rule that you posted. I'll quickly point to the last reason in Art 1 "when the referee orders the clock stopped" A point of emphasis was excessive substitution to consume time remaining on the clock. This was to be countered with the referee simply stopping the clock if he deems it to be a method of time wasting. It actually allows us a way out of a card and solves the problem with a simple "guys, I have the clock" instead of a caution. Another thing I would like to point out is that the referee, at any stoppage, may approach the timekeeper and adjust the clock as necessary. And finally, in HS, the clock starts at 40:00 and works its way down. I must emphasize that in HS there is no concept of "stoppage time" as there is in club ball...the clock is simply stopped and adjusted as necessary by the referee. When the clock hits 00:00, time is up...good, bad or indifferent, this is the way it is in HS ball. Time remaining should never be kept secret with XX amount of "stoppage time". Allowing a stadium clock to be official solves a lot of problems. A referee's signal for stopping the clock along with three specific instances (goal, card, injury) and one catch-all (referee's discretion) can easily be seen and administered through proper training of clock operators. Too much, you say? If the districts mandated two clock operators for each school to go through a one hour training with a referee representative, it will benefit the enjoyment of all...the time is no secret. This is one area where a little more effort on the part of both the schools and the referees will benefit the players and spectators (and would make that portion of the game easier on referees as well). Seems to me that most HS refs don't do it this way. By and large it works like it does in the rest of the world...ref adds on some time, then finds an innocuous spot in the game to end the half (notice how they never seem to blow the half dead right before a corner or attacking free kick). That, to me, is greatly preferable to worrying about scoreboards. How many tournament games are played without a scoreboard? How many games (anywhere) are played with a scoreboard that isn't turned on? I can see the argument for stopping the clock, but if it's such a good idea, why doesn't the rest of the world do it? It's just NFHS mucking things up for no good reason. Also, if a game isn't close the "stoppage" time is virtually NEVER made up. 40:00 (or a few seconds after), whistle blows, even if there were four goals and two injuries. Not to mention tournaments--good luck if you're a coach and you want stoppage time as you're pressing for an equalizer. There's 6 more games coming up on the same field.
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Post by time2retire on Feb 28, 2014 9:16:06 GMT -6
I can see your points in USSF games. But by accepting HS assignments, you implicitly accept to enforce their rules of competition, whether or not you agree with them. We didn't agree with the soft red concept but we had to enforce that as it was.
I see more benefit of making the clock official (in HS) than the status quo.
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Post by hsref3 on Dec 15, 2014 20:33:32 GMT -6
As a HS ref for the past three years, I have yet to see an official scoreboard clock operated by trained personel. In fact, if the scoreboard is even on, it is just a running clock and the cr keeps official time on the field. Many refs have their own method for accounting for stops and starts of the time per rules. You won't see many refs using the official signals for stopping the clock because there is no one home at the controls. The pressbox simply stops the clock at the 2:00 remaining mark to allow the on field time to be official and game stops when ref blows the whistle. I would love to see lhsaa make clock operators mandatory and remove all the confusion. A ref simply cannot keep all players, coaches, and others accuratley informed of remaining time and has no obligation to do so. If asked, however most refs will reply with an answer of time remaining.
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Post by happyjack on Dec 15, 2014 22:47:06 GMT -6
The more a coach yells at me, the less time we play...had a 6 minute second half the other day...
Okay, seriously, I've done high school for a lot of years, have yet to have an official scoreboard operator, including in the 8 state finals I've worked. Just doesn't happen. You will see a few officials give the signal for clock stoppage....these are few and far between. Most treat time just like USSF, start at 0:00 and go up, adding time as needed. I've tried the count down stopping my watch...problem is at some point I always forget to restart it. Running time with addition is easier for me to manage, but the bottom line is what works best for each official to get it right
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p_malinich
Data Expert
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Post by p_malinich on Dec 15, 2014 23:05:08 GMT -6
In PA, games do not start without an official clock AND two ball boys. Clock runs in HS like it does in NCAA. Counts down to a buzzer. Stopped during game (by official signal) for goals, injuries, excessive delays by winning team, and late dead balls.
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Post by smee on Dec 16, 2014 10:21:30 GMT -6
IMMHOO, this is what makes soccer special. A quick show of hands is needed here: who wants to see a game stopped when there is a one-on-one breakaway? Or worse, once a shot has been taken, but before the ball crosses the line?
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Post by time2retire on Dec 16, 2014 10:27:41 GMT -6
What we would like to see and what we are bound to enforce are two different things. Rule 5-3-2g on page 34 does not apply.
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Post by hsref3 on Dec 16, 2014 10:35:22 GMT -6
I agree with time2retire. The rules require us to stop the clock at certain points; however, LHSAA has given us a set of rules to apply, and yet the schools do not allow us to apply these rules by providing a trained clock operator. Until that happens, the refs will keep time on the field, the scoreboard will stop at 2:00 (usually), no one but the CR will know true time remaining, and the CR will make the final determination of when the game is over. For the record I do not know a single ref who would stop play with the ball in flight towards a goal. That simply is not going to happen.
Imagine the reaction of the crowd if the scoreboard clock was not used in high school American football. CHAOS! Soccer still is not recognized with the status of football in America, so we don't have clock operators.
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Post by smee on Dec 16, 2014 11:18:37 GMT -6
HSREF3: In football, the game continues after time gets to zero in 2 distinct circumstances: if the ball is snapped before the buzzer sounds, and if there is ANY defensive penalty on the play regardless of where it occurs on the field. So, using the rules as intimated above, we should keep playing until the ball goes out of play?
TimetoRetire: p33, 5-3.2g applies at all times. I would also point out articles c, f and i. (decide matters upon which the timers disagree, keep time & instruct the time to correct the clock).
I am sure I do not have to add Rule 19, or Law 18 to this conversation: most decent referees figure this out by the time they renew their licences for the first time.
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Post by hsref3 on Dec 16, 2014 12:32:56 GMT -6
I think were on the same page here. But my simple mind is a little confused by last comment. Of course football rules have nothing to do with soccer. My point was just about what would happen if high schools never used scoreboard time for football. (Only with a malfunction will time be kept on the field.)
NCAA games seem to work just fine with official time on the scoreboard operated by an official timer. I think it would work well for HS soccer games as well. And it seems that the rules do intend for a "visible clock" (6-2.2), but in practice official time is usually kept by the CR which is allowed by 6-2.1. Perhaps in the future....
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Post by time2retire on Dec 18, 2014 14:21:07 GMT -6
IMMHOO, this is what makes soccer special. A quick show of hands is needed here: who wants to see a game stopped when there is a one-on-one breakaway? Or worse, once a shot has been taken, but before the ball crosses the line? If the time is kept on your wrist, do you allow this goal after the expiration of time? And if you do, have you done the game justice according to the rules of competition? With each league or group wanting their own ROC enforced, we have to adjust to the way they want their games managed. For items covered in NFHS Rules (which I interpret time management as being covered), 5.3.2g does not apply. You do have the power to make corrections as necessary at stoppages of play. But as happyjack said, however you can properly manage the time, do it. What works for me may not work for you. The goal after expiration in the video is a beautiful goal for that level of play. For me, I cannot allow the goal in HS soccer. In USSF if this occurs during stoppage time, theoretically, I have a full minute to work with. I don't have that flexibility in the HS game.
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Post by randomstranger on Jan 10, 2015 21:03:57 GMT -6
The rule is you "play" two 40 min half
Doesn't seem hard to understand
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Post by randomstranger on Jan 10, 2015 21:07:34 GMT -6
IMMHOO, this is what makes soccer special. A quick show of hands is needed here: who wants to see a game stopped when there is a one-on-one breakaway? Or worse, once a shot has been taken, but before the ball crosses the line? If the time is kept on your wrist, do you allow this goal after the expiration of time? And if you do, have you done the game justice according to the rules of competition? With each league or group wanting their own ROC enforced, we have to adjust to the way they want their games managed. For items covered in NFHS Rules (which I interpret time management as being covered), 5.3.2g does not apply. You do have the power to make corrections as necessary at stoppages of play. But as happyjack said, however you can properly manage the time, do it. What works for me may not work for you. The goal after expiration in the video is a beautiful goal for that level of play. For me, I cannot allow the goal in HS soccer. In USSF if this occurs during stoppage time, theoretically, I have a full minute to work with. I don't have that flexibility in the HS game. Considering time on the clock is not the accurate/official time, I find it really really hard to believe there was zero stoppage time.
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Post by time2retire on Jan 10, 2015 23:40:14 GMT -6
That particular game was a state championship game. There was a trained clock operator...another official running the clock. Guarantee you that the time was accurate. Some states have this done during the semis and final, some don't do it at all.
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Post by soccerdad23 on Jan 11, 2015 9:39:14 GMT -6
is it like basketball where if the shot is released before the time expires it counts.. not sure that it was the situation in the video clip but it looked pretty close...OR (for soccer)if the time expires and the ball is still in the air but has not crossed the goal until after the time expires its still nullified??
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Post by time2retire on Jan 11, 2015 10:48:15 GMT -6
The whole ball must cross the whole line before time expires, or it does not count. Not like basketball.
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Post by oldhattrick3 on Jan 11, 2015 11:19:43 GMT -6
The whole ball must cross the whole line before time expires, or it does not count. Not like basketball. Which really in lies the problem - who can actually judge a ball in motion as to whether it is "completely" pass the line or not while waiting on a whistle. Sent from my SM-P600 using proboards
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