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Post by lordlars on Jan 15, 2019 21:23:53 GMT -6
Spin indicates one hand is dominant. Spin does not make a throw illegal. Probably a year ago we had to reiterate that a throw from a kneeling position was not legal. Personally too many are too critical when it comes to throws and a lot of legal throws are being whistled. "Ugly but legal never got me in trouble" I appreciate your response. I really do, but it does not in my opinion clear the water.
If a hand is behind the ball it is physically impossible to throw the ball with two hands as all three organizations say how the ball must be thrown.
The hand behind the ball gives the thrower the ability to throw the ball farther (less arch) and I believe more accurately (guiding hand).
I have yet to see a rule that says a dominate hand allowed. is not allowed. There fixed it for you.
I have found this from IFAB: www.thefa.com/football-rules-governance/lawsandrules/laws/football-11-11/law-15---the-throw-in No dominate hand, you have to Open FAQ #1
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Post by uhscubs1 on Jan 16, 2019 5:50:31 GMT -6
I appreciate your response. I really do, but it does not in my opinion clear the water.
If a hand is behind the ball it is physically impossible to throw the ball with two hands as all three organizations say how the ball must be thrown.
The hand behind the ball gives the thrower the ability to throw the ball farther (less arch) and I believe more accurately (guiding hand).
I have yet to see a rule that says a dominate hand allowed. is not allowed. There fixed it for you.
I have found this from IFAB: www.thefa.com/football-rules-governance/lawsandrules/laws/football-11-11/law-15---the-throw-in No dominate hand, you have to Open FAQ #1
And you would be wrong. Please look at link before trying to correct my post. TIA.
Edit: Actually all rules say use with both hands. You can interpret that anyway you chose but use both hands means to me use both hands to throw. It seems pretty clear to me.
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Post by straightdummin on Jan 16, 2019 7:47:38 GMT -6
I would prefer the "old" throw-in method. But, when rules are vague, it leaves room for interpretation. this is a classic example. you can't read anything into a rule that is not expressly stated. "throw the ball with two hands" means both hands, not one. There is no mention of a dominant hand, either allowing or not allowing. Therefore, that was not contemplated by the rule makers. As a result, as long as two hands are touching the ball, it would appear to be legal. Using a dominant hand is obviously not being called a foul-throw. apparently some coaches/players have found a niche in the rule and have taken advantage of it. As a result, unless the rule is modified, then others should adapt.
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Post by cardsinhand on Jan 16, 2019 7:54:05 GMT -6
I would prefer the "old" throw-in method. But, when rules are vague, it leaves room for interpretation. this is a classic example. you can't read anything into a rule that is not expressly stated. "throw the ball with two hands" means both hands, not one. There is no mention of a dominant hand, either allowing or not allowing. Therefore, that was not contemplated by the rule makers. As a result, as long as two hands are touching the ball, it would appear to be legal. Using a dominant hand is obviously not being called a foul-throw. apparently some coaches/players have found a niche in the rule and have taken advantage of it. As a result, unless the rule is modified, then others should adapt. And there you go. People in Europe throw in with both feet together, people in the US don't. It is all about what works for you.
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Post by Skippers on Jan 16, 2019 8:33:05 GMT -6
Notice there's no rule or law about spinning the ball.
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Post by straightdummin on Jan 16, 2019 14:50:48 GMT -6
wow this got quiet real quick
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Post by lordlars on Jan 17, 2019 8:05:02 GMT -6
Well, since most of the responders on this page are refs, and keep saying the same thing (its legal), there's no need to keep repeating the same answer over and over again to someone who won't listen.
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Post by uhscubs1 on Jan 17, 2019 9:48:33 GMT -6
I've talked to several refs and most say any hand position is OK and that is their opinion. One ref has told me hand behind the ball is illegal. I talked to the refs for our game last night and the most senior ref said it was passed down to them that any hand position is legal as long as the ball goes behind head and comes forward over head (not to the side) passed the face. They did not say who passed that ruling down and I did not ask but assumed from LHSAA. That was at least an answer that explained that interpretation of the rule had passed been down since as it is written it is open to debate as this thread shows.
FWIW, I hope to discuss it again with other refs before some other games before the season ends. The one somewhat troubling thing to me was a few I have discussed it with said it was their opinion. I would think this rule would be cut and dried but it appears not to be completely.
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Post by cardsinhand on Jan 17, 2019 15:31:12 GMT -6
Well, since most of the responders on this page are refs, and keep saying the same thing (its legal), there's no need to keep repeating the same answer over and over again to someone who won't listen. But look at his signature line.... You have to admire it. Mistakes make you better....quitting does not
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Post by straightdummin on Jan 17, 2019 16:47:44 GMT -6
Well, since most of the responders on this page are refs, and keep saying the same thing (its legal), there's no need to keep repeating the same answer over and over again to someone who won't listen. But look at his signature line.... You have to admire it. Mistakes make you better....quitting does not so I assume that you think that uhscubs1 is not going to let this topic go ...
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Post by time2retire on Jan 17, 2019 18:02:44 GMT -6
But look at his signature line.... You have to admire it. Mistakes make you better....quitting does not so I assume that you think that uhscubs1 is not going to let this topic go ... If he does, I hope he uses both hands from behind and over the top of his head.
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Post by uhscubs1 on Jan 18, 2019 5:14:54 GMT -6
Refs last night said hand behind the ball was illegal.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2019 6:45:54 GMT -6
I've talked to several refs and most say any hand position is OK and that is their opinion. One ref has told me hand behind the ball is illegal. I talked to the refs for our game last night and the most senior ref said it was passed down to them that any hand position is legal as long as the ball goes behind head and comes forward over head (not to the side) passed the face. They did not say who passed that ruling down and I did not ask but assumed from LHSAA. That was at least an answer that explained that interpretation of the rule had passed been down since as it is written it is open to debate as this thread shows. FWIW, I hope to discuss it again with other refs before some other games before the season ends. The one somewhat troubling thing to me was a few I have discussed it with said it was their opinion. I would think this rule would be cut and dried but it appears not to be completely. I agree, sound like it always comes down to who the ref is and how they want to call it. Hate to say the long throw ins have become a weapon for those team that can do it or get away with it. Kinda like the NFL, some QBs get calls and some don't, again that to is for the ref to decide. i have seen more spinning and one handed throws this season than all in past years, Are coaches coaching this?, or players just pushing the limits ?
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Post by uhscubs1 on Jan 18, 2019 6:56:47 GMT -6
I would like consistency. I would say some are coaching/working on it.
When some refs say it is illegal and others say it is not then that is the rub to me. I just think hand position should be clearly stated and it should be called uniformly.
Folks can say what they want about this thread. They can say I'm not listening but I think the reverse is true. There is inconsistency in this rule/law and I think it could be cleared up easily.
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Throw Ins
Jan 18, 2019 7:39:32 GMT -6
via mobile
Post by time2retire on Jan 18, 2019 7:39:32 GMT -6
Then there are a lot of cases "in the opinion of the referee" that will have to be re-written
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Post by straightdummin on Jan 18, 2019 8:57:04 GMT -6
Then there are a lot of cases "in the opinion of the referee" that will have to be re-written there are lots of rules in soccer that are left to the interpretation of the ref. unless there is a body that dictates how the rules should be interpreted, and actually grades and enforces ( a dream), then it will remain as is and be up to the interpretation of the individual ref. I don't see why it is that hard to understand. maybe you don't like it. Well unless the rule is changed, or some body dictates how rules should be interpreted then all of the "investigation" is a waste of time
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Throw Ins
Jan 18, 2019 10:05:42 GMT -6
via mobile
Post by time2retire on Jan 18, 2019 10:05:42 GMT -6
Not exactly a waste of time IMO I'd rather have the civil discussion than silence. We all gain value from these questions.
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Post by straightdummin on Jan 18, 2019 10:45:02 GMT -6
Not exactly a waste of time IMO I'd rather have the civil discussion than silence. We all gain value from these questions. I wasn't referring to you. yes a civil discuss, but it isn't going to change unless one of the aforementioned options takes place
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Post by uhscubs1 on Jan 18, 2019 10:58:49 GMT -6
There are obviously lots of things in soccer that are left to the opinion of the ref. Hand position on a throw in does seem like it should be one. Seems easy to fix but that is just me.
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Post by kevin on Jan 18, 2019 12:00:56 GMT -6
uhscubs, I agree that the rule could be worded better.
The problem is, you could say that about almost any rule. So much of the NFHS rulebook is obnoxiously overwritten as a result of years and years of rewriting by committee. There's a rule that says a sweatband on the wrist is acceptable, but if it has a player's initials on it, it's decoration and therefore not allowed. If you try to cover every possible situation, the rulebook will be a thousand pages long and no one would ever be able to remember it.
But the situation we have is somewhat frustrating, because there are rules and then there are a lot of unwritten rules. We just had a thread talking about delaying free kicks by standing in front of the ball. Technically, it should be a yellow card (whether it's HS or club). But that doesn't happen all the time. Some kids are coached, even at U10 or so, to sprint and get in front of the ball. I personally would love to see this rule enforced more strictly, but if you start throwing yellow cards around for this without any warning, you are going to get lots of coaches and players mad at you. On the other hand, if you warn a player first and then show a yellow card for a repeat offense, you'll get a lot less blowback. And technically, being 8 yards from the ball is just as much of an offense as being 6 inches from the ball, but if the player who is 7-8 yards away going to get carded? That's very unlikely. I've read that some coaches are taught to have their players get 7-8 yards away--close enough that it still might have an effect on the free kick if an opponent wants to play quickly, but far enough that they can plausibly claim they didn't know they were too close. It's an unwritten rule (and common sense) that the player at 7 yards--even though he is technically just as guilty--is having much less effect than the player standing 6 inches from the ball.
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