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Post by kahnman on Feb 28, 2020 11:07:02 GMT -6
Then, it will be, well, Iâm the best. No, Iâm the best. How about.... Iâm the best with these set of rules. And, Iâm the best with those set of rules. Until all rules are the same for every school involved, how can anyone say it is fair?? It is interesting that there are 2 public schools playing for the state championship at the highest level this year, one from your school. The winner will simply be the best, not the best with one set of rules or another, but the best. But lets think about this.... is it fair that these teams are heavily populated with club players playing at the highest level? Is it fair that these teams are coached by club coaches who are also highly qualified and active club coaches? There are rules that prevent a coach from coaching a certain number of his own players on a club team, but if we are honest, is it fair to make a team from an area of the state that is not served by one of the big five clubs compete against a team that could be composed almost entirely of high level club players. I go back to my original theory, at least in soccer, training is the issue. Get more kids training younger. You bemoan the fact that there are players from your district playing in private schools, but most of those kids were in private schools from kindergarten and were never going to be your players. Again, figure a way to train more kids and I have a feeling the screams of unfairness will die down. I assume you are taking about girls b/c there have only been 2 teams to play for the state title in the highest division for boys in 10 years, 2 total, out of 20 participants.
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Post by bubbasize5balls on Feb 28, 2020 11:12:39 GMT -6
It is interesting that there are 2 public schools playing for the state championship at the highest level this year, one from your school. The winner will simply be the best, not the best with one set of rules or another, but the best. But lets think about this.... is it fair that these teams are heavily populated with club players playing at the highest level? Is it fair that these teams are coached by club coaches who are also highly qualified and active club coaches? There are rules that prevent a coach from coaching a certain number of his own players on a club team, but if we are honest, is it fair to make a team from an area of the state that is not served by one of the big five clubs compete against a team that could be composed almost entirely of high level club players. I go back to my original theory, at least in soccer, training is the issue. Get more kids training younger. You bemoan the fact that there are players from your district playing in private schools, but most of those kids were in private schools from kindergarten and were never going to be your players. Again, figure a way to train more kids and I have a feeling the screams of unfairness will die down. I assume you are taking about girls b/c there have only been 2 teams to play for the state title in the highest division for boys in 10 years, 2 total, out of 20 participants. Are you saying itâs easier for girls?
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Post by kahnman on Feb 28, 2020 11:22:29 GMT -6
The numbers reflect it is easier for girls. Also, in my opinion it is easier for girls. The girls game can be taken over easier by 1 or 2 dominant players.
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Post by lovenorthshoresoccer on Feb 28, 2020 12:27:30 GMT -6
The numbers reflect it is easier for girls. Also, in my opinion it is easier for girls. The girls game can be taken over easier by 1 or 2 dominant players. Wow, we really went there..... The Northshore and Mandeville teams who will be competing tonight are both made up of far more than 1 or 2 dominant players, and each have players who will be playing in college. A version of this Northshore team came very close last year as well. They are competing at the highest level for all of the same reasons that SPS, SSA and every other private school competes, because their rosters are made up of large numbers of talented well trained players. To disrespect what these girls have accomplished to support your argument is just wrong....
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Post by bubbasize5balls on Feb 28, 2020 13:27:21 GMT -6
The numbers reflect it is easier for girls. Also, in my opinion it is easier for girls. The girls game can be taken over easier by 1 or 2 dominant players. The girls teams in the final can certainly beat most D4 teams Ive seen this year, including some in the playoffs
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Post by kahnman on Feb 28, 2020 15:04:26 GMT -6
The numbers reflect it is easier for girls. Also, in my opinion it is easier for girls. The girls game can be taken over easier by 1 or 2 dominant players. Wow, we really went there..... The Northshore and Mandeville teams who will be competing tonight are both made up of far more than 1 or 2 dominant players, and each have players who will be playing in college. A version of this Northshore team came very close last year as well. They are competing at the highest level for all of the same reasons that SPS, SSA and every other private school competes, because their rosters are made up of large numbers of talented well trained players.  To disrespect what these girls have accomplished to support your argument is just wrong.... I did not mean to insinuate anything about those two teams. I literally know zero about them. I havenât seen either play and canât have an opinion either way. First, I was under the Impression that since this is the boys section of the board, that was the conversation being had. If it is not, I will admit, I know way less about the girls side of high school soccer and itâs history. I do think that as a general rule it is easier for a dominant girls player or 2 to take over an entire game. That was all my statement was meant to reflect. I am sorry if it came out any other way.
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Post by kahnman on Feb 28, 2020 15:06:41 GMT -6
The numbers I was referring to are the number of public school girls teams in the finals in the last 10 years. That ânumberâ is more than 2. Therefore the numbers say it is easier to do on the girls side as opposed to the boys.
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Post by lovenorthshoresoccer on Feb 28, 2020 16:03:16 GMT -6
The numbers I was referring to are the number of public school girls teams in the finals in the last 10 years. That ânumberâ is more than 2. Therefore the numbers say it is easier to do on the girls side as opposed to the boys. Sometimes numbers prove our point, sometimes they do not. On the boys side, in the highest classification, the actual numbers are as follows, between 2003 and 2020, 34 boys public schools teams have made the semi finals and 38 boys private school teams, hmm, pretty even. In that same time period, 11 boys public schools made the finals and 23 boys private, a wider disparity, but still not quite the drastic differences being claimed. Granted, the actual champion has been heavily on the private side, but that is just as much a product of two powerhouse programs with powerhouse coaches as it is any other reason. For the last four years on the boys side, the teams are split in the semis, with no publics making the finals. On the girls side, also in the highest classification, the actual numbers are as follows. For the same time period, 40 public schools have made the semis, 32 private schools. For the Finals, 17 public schools, 19 privates. For the last three years on the girls side, there have been 3 publics and 1 private each year in the semis with this year culminating in 2 publics in the finals. Not sure how you define "easier" but it sure seems like you are stating that since there are so many girls public teams making the finals, it must be "easier" Could I offer an alternative, the girls public schools have done a better job of stepping up to the competition.
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Post by gallstar on Feb 28, 2020 16:46:02 GMT -6
The numbers I was referring to are the number of public school girls teams in the finals in the last 10 years. That ânumberâ is more than 2. Therefore the numbers say it is easier to do on the girls side as opposed to the boys. Sometimes numbers prove our point, sometimes they do not. On the boys side, in the highest classification, the actual numbers are as follows, between 2003 and 2020, 34 boys public schools teams have made the semi finals and 38 boys private school teams, hmm, pretty even. In that same time period, 11 boys public schools made the finals and 23 boys private, a wider disparity, but still not quite the drastic differences being claimed. Granted, the actual champion has been heavily on the private side, but that is just as much a product of two powerhouse programs with powerhouse coaches as it is any other reason. For the last four years on the boys side, the teams are split in the semis, with no publics making the finals. On the girls side, also in the highest classification, the actual numbers are as follows. For the same time period, 40 public schools have made the semis, 32 private schools. For the Finals, 17 public schools, 19 privates. For the last three years on the girls side, there have been 3 publics and 1 private each year in the semis with this year culminating in 2 publics in the finals. Not sure how you define "easier" but it sure seems like you are stating that since there are so many girls public teams making the finals, it must be "easier"  Could I offer an alternative, the girls public schools have done a better job of stepping up to the competition. yeap thatâs it. Youâre right. Boys from public schools just donât want it bad enough. đ
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Post by uhscubs1 on Feb 28, 2020 17:36:36 GMT -6
The numbers reflect it is easier for girls. Also, in my opinion it is easier for girls. The girls game can be taken over easier by 1 or 2 dominant players. The girls teams in the final can certainly beat most D4 teams Ive seen this year, including some in the playoffs Do you what age group boys, and I mean boys, scrimmage the women's national team and beat them? U15
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Post by Tank on Feb 28, 2020 17:56:43 GMT -6
The girls teams in the final can certainly beat most D4 teams Ive seen this year, including some in the playoffs Do you what age group boys, and I mean boys, scrimmage the women's national team and beat them? U15 Yeah gotta agree with ya - D4 Mens team vs any girls team wouldnt end well. Stay in the realm of competition - men vs. men, women vs. women. As funny as it is to talk about, Alabama and Clemson would be destroyed by the worst NFL or XFL team.
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Post by gallstar on Feb 28, 2020 18:14:51 GMT -6
I've figured the girls on the north shore out. St. Paul's is an all-boy school. They don't recruit girls! You're all welcome!
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Post by kahnman on Feb 28, 2020 21:02:42 GMT -6
The numbers I was referring to are the number of public school girls teams in the finals in the last 10 years. That ânumberâ is more than 2. Therefore the numbers say it is easier to do on the girls side as opposed to the boys. Sometimes numbers prove our point, sometimes they do not. On the boys side, in the highest classification, the actual numbers are as follows, between 2003 and 2020, 34 boys public schools teams have made the semi finals and 38 boys private school teams, hmm, pretty even. In that same time period, 11 boys public schools made the finals and 23 boys private, a wider disparity, but still not quite the drastic differences being claimed. Granted, the actual champion has been heavily on the private side, but that is just as much a product of two powerhouse programs with powerhouse coaches as it is any other reason. For the last four years on the boys side, the teams are split in the semis, with no publics making the finals. On the girls side, also in the highest classification, the actual numbers are as follows. For the same time period, 40 public schools have made the semis, 32 private schools. For the Finals, 17 public schools, 19 privates. For the last three years on the girls side, there have been 3 publics and 1 private each year in the semis with this year culminating in 2 publics in the finals. Not sure how you define "easier" but it sure seems like you are stating that since there are so many girls public teams making the finals, it must be "easier"  Could I offer an alternative, the girls public schools have done a better job of stepping up to the competition. Again, I have limited knowledge about the girls games. My original number is still true, 10 games, 2/20 public right? You opened it up to semifinals, but there are only 4 Div I private schools that I can think of. Literally they must play each other at least once before the semi every now and then right? If all 4 make it, the odds are pretty good 2 will see each other before the semi. To be that outnumbered yet still dominate says something doesnât it? They are out numbered 15-1 yet dominate the final game with a 10-1 ratio. To state there are not different eligibility rules is simply an incorrect statement. Clearly they exist. To state those rules differences do not create an advantage is very tough for me to see. When you look at a year individually, it can be said each year âteam A almost did it, they were right there, see it is possibleâ is one thing but when you step back and look at it from farther away, no matter how close team A has gotten, it has not translated, in 10,12,or 14 consecutive years, no matter how good team A was, none of them got it done. Was that because none of them wanted it bad enough or is there something else influencing that?
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Post by firebruin on Feb 28, 2020 21:13:03 GMT -6
Lots of club players = better results
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Post by lovenorthshoresoccer on Feb 29, 2020 8:23:28 GMT -6
Sometimes numbers prove our point, sometimes they do not. On the boys side, in the highest classification, the actual numbers are as follows, between 2003 and 2020, 34 boys public schools teams have made the semi finals and 38 boys private school teams, hmm, pretty even. In that same time period, 11 boys public schools made the finals and 23 boys private, a wider disparity, but still not quite the drastic differences being claimed. Granted, the actual champion has been heavily on the private side, but that is just as much a product of two powerhouse programs with powerhouse coaches as it is any other reason. For the last four years on the boys side, the teams are split in the semis, with no publics making the finals. On the girls side, also in the highest classification, the actual numbers are as follows. For the same time period, 40 public schools have made the semis, 32 private schools. For the Finals, 17 public schools, 19 privates. For the last three years on the girls side, there have been 3 publics and 1 private each year in the semis with this year culminating in 2 publics in the finals. Not sure how you define "easier" but it sure seems like you are stating that since there are so many girls public teams making the finals, it must be "easier"  Could I offer an alternative, the girls public schools have done a better job of stepping up to the competition. Again, I have limited knowledge about the girls games. My original number is still true, 10 games, 2/20 public right? You opened it up to semifinals, but there are only 4 Div I private schools that I can think of. Literally they must play each other at least once before the semi every now and then right? If all 4 make it, the odds are pretty good 2 will see each other before the semi. To be that outnumbered yet still dominate says something doesnât it? They are out numbered 15-1 yet dominate the final game with a 10-1 ratio. To state there are not different eligibility rules is simply an incorrect statement. Clearly they exist. To state those rules differences do not create an advantage is very tough for me to see. When you look at a year individually, it can be said each year âteam A almost did it, they were right there, see it is possibleâ is one thing but when you step back and look at it from farther away, no matter how close team A has gotten, it has not translated, in 10,12,or 14 consecutive years, no matter how good team A was, none of them got it done. Was that because none of them wanted it bad enough or is there something else influencing that? It is clear my point is lost. Yes the publicâs are limited by geography where the privates are not. But geography, particularly in st Tammany and any other area where club soccer flourishes, does not limit the ability of students within any attendance zone to be well trained. Your assumption is that the privates are better because they have a bigger player pool to draw from. In fact, in the general population the pool of students is much smaller as it is necessarily limited to those who can and then are willing to pay the tuition. The soccer culture and the costs involved just happen to align perfectly with the private school population. My point throughout has been and continues to be, there should be a way to train more players particularly in areas like st Tammany, br, no. The girls side has found a way without simply throwing in the towel and wow was that game last night great! Made even greater by the fact that each of these teams got to where they were by rising to the competition. More trained players will always be the best answer. Unfortunately more trained players = money and time. The easier answer for many, just split, the competition wonât be as good, it will still be unfair with the publics dominated by those public schools with the most club players, but more Johnnyâs ( and their parents) get trophies, and isnât that what this is all about. đł
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Post by kahnman on Feb 29, 2020 15:20:08 GMT -6
Donât want more trophies, and not in favor of a split, I thought I made that clear. I would like to see to see the same number of trophies distributed more evenly, and with a level playing field. Clearly the private side has no interest in that and will protect that at all costs.
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Post by tlabat on Feb 29, 2020 17:47:31 GMT -6
Donât want more trophies, and not in favor of a split, I thought I made that clear. I would like to see to see the same number of trophies distributed more evenly, and with a level playing field. Clearly the private side has no interest in that and will protect that at all costs. âThe private sideâ gets crushed by the same 6-7 teams every year too, man. SPS/Jesuit/Catholic/STM/HC/Vandy/StLouis/Newman/Episcopal. What you really want is those schools to go away so itâs âfairâ. I want to beat them.
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Post by tlabat on Feb 29, 2020 17:53:34 GMT -6
Iâm just so tired of this argument. You really think kids that right now go to St. Paulâs wouldnât go there if St. Tammany was open enrollment? You really think the kids that go to Jesuit/Holy Cross would go to public school if they had the choice?
If you make every parish in the state open enrollment youâll still complain because the top dogs are the top dogs. Private schools do have âdistrictsâ that make kids ineligible their first year if they come from out of district. If youâre suggesting that every school that is private the kids shouldnât be able to play sports you are insane. Some people want a private education, some donât/canât.
If you made Ascension parish open enrollment and every single soccer player who didnât go to a private school decided to go to Dutchtown some people in St. Amant are going to be upset.
Beat them. Stop complaining.
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Post by chelsea007 on Mar 1, 2020 9:23:29 GMT -6
I agree...beat them or be quiet.
However...that means ONE state champion...not 4, not 40, not 400.
No excuses such as: -Geographic footprint -School enrollment -Club player % -Socio-economics
I repeat ONE state champion.
If you argue with this logic, then you are being disingenuous imho. By arguing against this logic, you are actually supporting the logic behind the split.
I am against the split.
I am also against more than one state champion.
My thoughts... 4 divisions 8 "play in" teams per division The divisional champ of the "play in" advances to the playoffs.
Two matches later we have
THE State Champion.
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Post by gallstar on Mar 1, 2020 11:31:49 GMT -6
I like it and this leads nicely into Gallstarâs final top 10 for 2020 all divisions:
1. St. Paul 2. University of BR 3. Catholic of BR 4. Dutchtown 5. Vanderbilt 6. Newman 7. Holy Cross 8. Loyola 9. Denham 10. St. Thomas Moore
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