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Post by beauchenecoach on Jun 2, 2021 7:00:41 GMT -6
I requested an official ruling on behalf of the Louisiana Soccer Coaches Association.
Ruling in email per Michael Federico, Assistant Executive Director of the LHSAA (in charge of Soccer)
After reading the information you have provided, this league would not fall under 4.2.9.6 or 4.2.9.7 . Any student who participates in this league and participates with and LHSAA member school during the posted season dates for soccer would be open to sanctions and penalties under rule 5.11.26
Ruling request was sent in to myself on behalf of LHSAA in regards to MLS Next league and TDP Elite team and participation during High School season at same time due to the exception in Rule 4.2.9.6 and 4.2.9.7. As per the ruling above, players from the TDP Elite team would not be able to play both at the same time during High School season.
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Post by viewgator91 on Jun 2, 2021 10:25:23 GMT -6
I requested an official ruling on behalf of the Louisiana Soccer Coaches Association. Ruling in email per Michael Federico, Assistant Executive Director of the LHSAA (in charge of Soccer) After reading the information you have provided, this league would not fall under 4.2.9.6 or 4.2.9.7 . Any student who participates in this league and participates with and LHSAA member school during the posted season dates for soccer would be open to sanctions and penalties under rule 5.11.26 Ruling request was sent in to myself on behalf of LHSAA in regards to MLS Next league and TDP Elite team and participation during High School season at same time due to the exception in Rule 4.2.9.6 and 4.2.9.7. As per the ruling above, players from the TDP Elite team would not be able to play both at the same time during High School season. There is some healthy debate going on over on the boys club board. My question is why wouldn't we give the athletes the opportunity to make the choice if doing both is right for them? Why does it have to be either or? I would understand from MLS Next perspective about injuries and negative development (bad habits), but why would LHSAA or anyone involved with HS soccer want to prevent those kids from having the choice? |
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Post by dualdellortos on Jun 3, 2021 11:04:15 GMT -6
I requested an official ruling on behalf of the Louisiana Soccer Coaches Association. Ruling in email per Michael Federico, Assistant Executive Director of the LHSAA (in charge of Soccer) After reading the information you have provided, this league would not fall under 4.2.9.6 or 4.2.9.7 . Any student who participates in this league and participates with and LHSAA member school during the posted season dates for soccer would be open to sanctions and penalties under rule 5.11.26 Ruling request was sent in to myself on behalf of LHSAA in regards to MLS Next league and TDP Elite team and participation during High School season at same time due to the exception in Rule 4.2.9.6 and 4.2.9.7. As per the ruling above, players from the TDP Elite team would not be able to play both at the same time during High School season. There is some healthy debate going on over on the boys club board. My question is why wouldn't we give the athletes the opportunity to make the choice if doing both is right for them? Why does it have to be either or? I would understand from MLS Next perspective about injuries and negative development (bad habits), but why would LHSAA or anyone involved with HS soccer want to prevent those kids from having the choice? Since these rules impact all sports, I would think that injuries from overplaying are a concern for all sides. In addition, the arrogance of US Soccer/MLS regarding style of play, player development and tunnel vision coaching is exactly why the teams on our men’s side can’t defeat powerhouses like TandT, Honduras or Panama in crunch matches. |
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Post by cosmos on Jun 3, 2021 16:09:45 GMT -6
I requested an official ruling on behalf of the Louisiana Soccer Coaches Association. Ruling in email per Michael Federico, Assistant Executive Director of the LHSAA (in charge of Soccer) After reading the information you have provided, this league would not fall under 4.2.9.6 or 4.2.9.7 . Any student who participates in this league and participates with and LHSAA member school during the posted season dates for soccer would be open to sanctions and penalties under rule 5.11.26 Ruling request was sent in to myself on behalf of LHSAA in regards to MLS Next league and TDP Elite team and participation during High School season at same time due to the exception in Rule 4.2.9.6 and 4.2.9.7. As per the ruling above, players from the TDP Elite team would not be able to play both at the same time during High School season. There is some healthy debate going on over on the boys club board. My question is why wouldn't we give the athletes the opportunity to make the choice if doing both is right for them? Why does it have to be either or? I would understand from MLS Next perspective about injuries and negative development (bad habits), but why would LHSAA or anyone involved with HS soccer want to prevent those kids from having the choice? Not trying to defend the LHSAA, but to be fair the LHSAA is just enforcing the bylaws they had in place prior to our state ever having something like this. Club soccer and high school soccer have rarely overlapped until now. They have allowed exceptions for ODP and showcase tournaments also. I am unsure of the exact process, but there are ways to change most things with a vote if the right person brings it up at the right time. I wonder if kids were theoretically allowed to play higher levels of club soccer in season if they would have to allow it for all LHSAA Sports like baseball and volleyball etc. This might not just be a minor exception for soccer in the bylaws. It might require a major change to the bylaws that could affect all LHSAA sports. If it was only for soccer, would we allow it for only MLS Next, for all national leagues, for all regional leagues or all of club soccer. Furthermore we need to figure if these kids can realistically even do both anyways and will the MLS Next really allow it or is this just a tough transition phase for a few years affecting mainly the older ages. |
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Post by futbalfan on Jun 4, 2021 10:38:49 GMT -6
So a bunch of kids will get invites Monday and Tuesday after last tryout Sunday so we have a short period of time here to know what the high school availability will be for:
A. Rostered LA TDP Elite players
B. Part-time LA TDP Elite players
And is from both sides:
A. MLS Next - will they allow players to play HS in the Dec-end of March window?
B. LHSAA - will they allow MLS Next players to join HS teams late and play?
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Post by cosmos on Jun 4, 2021 13:58:53 GMT -6
So a bunch of kids will get invites Monday and Tuesday after last tryout Sunday so we have a short period of time here to know what the high school availability will be for: A. Rostered LA TDP Elite players B. Part-time LA TDP Elite players And is from both sides: A. MLS Next - will they allow players to play HS in the Dec-end of March window? B. LHSAA - will they allow MLS Next players to join HS teams late and play? It seems the purpose of this thread was to release the LHSAA part of the answer I am not speaking for them, but it sounded pretty clear to me: 1. You can not play both at the same time 2. You can not report late to high school or leave high school soccer early 3. It really makes no difference in regards to the above if you are rostered or not As far as MLS Next part I have no idea, but: 1. The MLS Next would have to officially allow it. They did allow high school last year, but I have no idea about 2021-2022. 2. If the MLS Next allows it, then the MLS next coach would have to release whatever players (rostered or non rostered) from all MLS Next practices and games from the start of the LHSAA soccer season, October 25th I believe, until the team is done with playoffs (potentially as late as February 17th). |
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Post by futbalfan on Jun 4, 2021 14:35:27 GMT -6
So a bunch of kids will get invites Monday and Tuesday after last tryout Sunday so we have a short period of time here to know what the high school availability will be for: A. Rostered LA TDP Elite players B. Part-time LA TDP Elite players And is from both sides: A. MLS Next - will they allow players to play HS in the Dec-end of March window? B. LHSAA - will they allow MLS Next players to join HS teams late and play? It seems the purpose of this thread was to release the LHSAA part of the answer I am not speaking for them, but it sounded pretty clear to me: 1. You can not play both at the same time 2. You can not report late to high school or leave high school soccer early 3. It really makes no difference in regards to the above if you are rostered or not As far as MLS Next part I have no idea, but: 1. The MLS Next would have to officially allow it. They did allow high school last year, but I have no idea about 2021-2022. 2. If the MLS Next allows it, then the MLS next coach would have to release whatever players (rostered or non rostered) from all MLS Next practices and games from the start of the LHSAA soccer season, October 25th I believe, until the team is done with playoffs (potentially as late as February 17th). I get all that...except what rule does starting school soccer season late violate? Football players do it all the time. Cross country guys do it all the time. Is the difference that it’s not going from a school sport to a school sport like those? |
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Post by cosmos on Jun 4, 2021 15:06:12 GMT -6
It seems the purpose of this thread was to release the LHSAA part of the answer I am not speaking for them, but it sounded pretty clear to me: 1. You can not play both at the same time 2. You can not report late to high school or leave high school soccer early 3. It really makes no difference in regards to the above if you are rostered or not As far as MLS Next part I have no idea, but: 1. The MLS Next would have to officially allow it. They did allow high school last year, but I have no idea about 2021-2022. 2. If the MLS Next allows it, then the MLS next coach would have to release whatever players (rostered or non rostered) from all MLS Next practices and games from the start of the LHSAA soccer season, October 25th I believe, until the team is done with playoffs (potentially as late as February 17th). I get all that...except what rule does starting school soccer season late violate? Football players do it all the time. Cross country guys do it all the time. Is the difference that it’s not going from a school sport to a school sport like those?[ You can play multiple LSHAA sports during the same season. You can report late to an LSHAA sport from another LSHAA sport. You can even play a club sport at the same time as a LSHAA sport as long as they are not the same sport. The rules may not seem fair, but they were in place already and to change them is a process. |
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Post by soccermomea on Jun 4, 2021 16:10:08 GMT -6
The plain language of existing LHSAA Rules 4.2.1, 4.2.4 and 4.2.6 allow a student athlete to remain on an independent team until he or she chooses to become a member of the high school team. First, Rule 4.3.1 says a student who is a MEMBER of an LHSAA team may not participate on an independent team in the same sport he is playing. Rule 4.2.4 allows participation on an independent team until the student BECOMES A MEMBER of the high school team: "Once a student becomes a member of an LHSAA team, he/she may not participate with an independent team or an organized exhibition group in that same sport." It does not say anything about having to be a member at the start of the season.
Rule 4.2.6 then repeats the same rule by providing: "A student-athlete who plays on an independent team shall not have his/her high school eligibility affected, provided such play takes place . . . before he/she becomes a MEMBER of a school team in the fall." The provision then goes on to provide examples of when participation on an independent team is legal, but does not state that a player cannot become a member of a high school team when he finishes with the independent team after the high school season starts.
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Post by firebruin on Jun 4, 2021 17:46:21 GMT -6
The rules have always allowed for a player to finish the fall club season and then join their high school team. This is how it was handled before the additional language addressing regional and national leagues was added. I am not sure why certain individuals are saying that they can't join their team after they conclude the fall season according to the LHSAAA policies.
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Post by cosmos on Jun 4, 2021 17:56:24 GMT -6
The plain language of existing LHSAA Rules 4.2.1, 4.2.4 and 4.2.6 allow a student athlete to remain on an independent team until he or she chooses to become a member of the high school team. First, Rule 4.3.1 says a student who is a MEMBER of an LHSAA team may not participate on an independent team in the same sport he is playing. Rule 4.2.4 allows participation on an independent team until the student BECOMES A MEMBER of the high school team: "Once a student becomes a member of an LHSAA team, he/she may not participate with an independent team or an organized exhibition group in that same sport." It does not say anything about having to be a member at the start of the season. Rule 4.2.6 then repeats the same rule by providing: "A student-athlete who plays on an independent team shall not have his/her high school eligibility affected, provided such play takes place . . . before he/she becomes a MEMBER of a school team in the fall." The provision then goes on to provide examples of when participation on an independent team is legal, but does not state that a player cannot become a member of a high school team when he finishes with the independent team after the high school season starts. Is there some ambiguity? Probably so I previously thought players could report late from club soccer, it just rarely happened. 4.2.4 makes it seem they can report late, but then 4.2.6. states they must report on the first practice date The bylaws they clarified were 4.2.9.6 or 4.2.9.7 and I thought these pertained more to doing both at the same time, but the LHSAA then went on to say you could not play on an independent team at all during the season dates. I have known of a few players (young players) who have reported a few days late from club soccer in the past and the coaches felt they were following all the rules. I am sure due to 4.2.4. This is much different now and not something that can go under the radar by well intentioned coaches. You will need the bylaws interpreted and a formal statement from the LHSAA that says it is allowed. You can ask the LHSAA for clarification of 4.2.4 and 4.2.6 if you feel it might change things, It seems to me at this point they have already made it clear how they are interpreting things. Others have also said MLS next is not officially changing their stance on allowing high school soccer. If the MLS Next coaches are going to allow the kids to play high school on the break anyways, well that is not really the LHSAA concern what the MLS next rules say in my opinion. 4.2.4 and 4.2.6 might come up again if ECNL or GA come to Louisiana, so asking for clarification on this would not be a bad idea if someone feels the LHSAA needs to clarify things more. |
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Post by soccermomea on Jun 4, 2021 21:25:21 GMT -6
The ruling from LHSAA only states that MLS Next does not fall within the exceptions under 4.2.9.6 and .7 for showcases and RPL now Midsouth. There is no ruling from LHSAA on 4.2.1, 4.2.4 and 4.2.6, and these rules unambiguously state 3 different times that you can play on an independent team until you become a member of your high school team. There is no language in 2.4.6 stating that you must report or be a member of the team by the first practice date. 2.4.6 does not contain language stating that the examples of situations where it is legal to play on an independent team are the exclusive situations for playing on a independent team or that a player cannot delay becoming a member of the high school team after the start of the season. This would make no sense considering the language in the prior rules and the language immediately proceeding the examples.
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Post by cosmos on Jun 5, 2021 6:27:25 GMT -6
The ruling from LHSAA only states that MLS Next does not fall within the exceptions under 4.2.9.6 and .7 for showcases and RPL now Midsouth. There is no ruling from LHSAA on 4.2.1, 4.2.4 and 4.2.6, and these rules unambiguously state 3 different times that you can play on an independent team until you become a member of your high school team. There is no language in 2.4.6 stating that you must report or be a member of the team by the first practice date. 2.4.6 does not contain language stating that the examples of situations where it is legal to play on an independent team are the exclusive situations for playing on a independent team or that a player cannot delay becoming a member of the high school team after the start of the season. This would make no sense considering the language in the prior rules and the language immediately proceeding the examples. I am honestly not arguing or lobbying against the MLS Next. Based on the ruling from the LHSAA it is obvious you can not do both at the same time. They also seemed to say you could not participate at all with an independent team during any of the LHSAA soccer dates. Yes, there are other bylaws and I would highly encourage anyone that thinks they can play to make sure the LHSAA further clarifies things based on the other bylaws if they can report late or not. Their is even an Louisiana MLS Next Coach that also coaches high school.....they should ask the LSHAA for clarification if they feel the kids can do both based on the bylaws. In a perfect world the kids could report late if the MLS Next allows it and the particular high school coach also allows it. High school may not be what prepares kids for the next level, but it certainly has other benefits. As per the bylaws I still think 2.4.6 might be the one that poses a problem. It really does matter though what I think or what is said on here in speculation. It matters what the LHSAA states. Lets be clear though, if the kids can play high school soccer, they will probably need a statement from the LHSAA that make it clear they can report late. Otherwise they will jeopardize their teams eligibility if someone else asks for a ruling and it is not in their favor. As per 4.2.6 4.2.6 A student-athlete who plays on an independent team shall not have his/her high school eligibility affected, provided such play takes place after his/her school has completed its sports season and/or before he/she becomes a member of a school team in the fall. Participation with an independent team is legal in the following situations: 1. Prior to reporting for the school team for the first official practice date. |
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Post by soccermomea on Jun 5, 2021 7:32:43 GMT -6
The ruling from LHSAA only states that MLS Next does not fall within the exceptions under 4.2.9.6 and .7 for showcases and RPL now Midsouth. There is no ruling from LHSAA on 4.2.1, 4.2.4 and 4.2.6, and these rules unambiguously state 3 different times that you can play on an independent team until you become a member of your high school team. There is no language in 2.4.6 stating that you must report or be a member of the team by the first practice date. 2.4.6 does not contain language stating that the examples of situations where it is legal to play on an independent team are the exclusive situations for playing on a independent team or that a player cannot delay becoming a member of the high school team after the start of the season. This would make no sense considering the language in the prior rules and the language immediately proceeding the examples. I am honestly not arguing or lobbying against the MLS Next. Based on the ruling from the LHSAA it is obvious you can not do both at the same time. They also seemed to say you could not participate at all with an independent team during any of the LHSAA soccer dates. Yes, there are other bylaws and I would highly encourage anyone that thinks they can play to make sure the LHSAA further clarifies things based on the other bylaws if they can report late or not. Their is even an Louisiana MLS Next Coach that also coaches high school.....they should ask the LSHAA for clarification if they feel the kids can do both based on the bylaws. In a perfect world the kids could report late if the MLS Next allows it and the particular high school coach also allows it. High school may not be what prepares kids for the next level, but it certainly has other benefits. As per the bylaws I still think 2.4.6 might be the one that poses a problem. It really does matter though what I think or what is said on here in speculation. It matters what the LHSAA states. Lets be clear though, if the kids can play high school soccer, they will probably need a statement from the LHSAA that make it clear they can report late. Otherwise they will jeopardize their teams eligibility if someone else asks for a ruling and it is not in their favor. As per 4.2.6 4.2.6 A student-athlete who plays on an independent team shall not have his/her high school eligibility affected, provided such play takes place after his/her school has completed its sports season and/or before he/she becomes a member of a school team in the fall. Participation with an independent team is legal in the following situations: 1. Prior to reporting for the school team for the first official practice date. I don't see a ruling stating that once a sports season starts you are prohibited from becoming a member of a high school team after playing on an independent team during the beginning of the sports season. The only ruling I see is that you can't play on an independent team and high school team in the same sport at the same time. No reasonable person could read the rules in Section 4.2 as you suggest and interpret them to mean that you automatically become ineligible if you play on an independent team after the school starts. Rules of interpretation require you to apply rules as written not as they "seem." The plain language of 4.2.6 above states that your eligibility is not affected before you become a member of the school team in the fall. The next sentence says participation is legal prior to REPORTING to the school team for the first official practice. It does not say you have to report on the first practice date or automatically become a member of the team on the first practice date. More importantly there is absolutely no rule saying it is illegal to become a member of a high school team if you play on an independent team after the season starts. The rules in Section 4.2 repeatedly state to the contrary. |
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Post by cosmos on Jun 5, 2021 10:26:57 GMT -6
I am honestly not arguing or lobbying against the MLS Next. Based on the ruling from the LHSAA it is obvious you can not do both at the same time. They also seemed to say you could not participate at all with an independent team during any of the LHSAA soccer dates. Yes, there are other bylaws and I would highly encourage anyone that thinks they can play to make sure the LHSAA further clarifies things based on the other bylaws if they can report late or not. Their is even an Louisiana MLS Next Coach that also coaches high school.....they should ask the LSHAA for clarification if they feel the kids can do both based on the bylaws. In a perfect world the kids could report late if the MLS Next allows it and the particular high school coach also allows it. High school may not be what prepares kids for the next level, but it certainly has other benefits. As per the bylaws I still think 2.4.6 might be the one that poses a problem. It really does matter though what I think or what is said on here in speculation. It matters what the LHSAA states. Lets be clear though, if the kids can play high school soccer, they will probably need a statement from the LHSAA that make it clear they can report late. Otherwise they will jeopardize their teams eligibility if someone else asks for a ruling and it is not in their favor. As per 4.2.6 4.2.6 A student-athlete who plays on an independent team shall not have his/her high school eligibility affected, provided such play takes place after his/her school has completed its sports season and/or before he/she becomes a member of a school team in the fall. Participation with an independent team is legal in the following situations: 1. Prior to reporting for the school team for the first official practice date. I don't see a ruling stating that once a sports season starts you are prohibited from becoming a member of a high school team after playing on an independent team during the beginning of the sports season. The only ruling I see is that you can't play on an independent team and high school team in the same sport at the same time. No reasonable person could read the rules in Section 4.2 as you suggest and interpret them to mean that you automatically become ineligible if you play on an independent team after the school starts. Rules of interpretation require you to apply rules as written not as they "seem." The plain language of 4.2.6 above states that your eligibility is not affected before you become a member of the school team in the fall. The next sentence says participation is legal prior to REPORTING to the school team for the first official practice. It does not say you have to report on the first practice date or automatically become a member of the team on the first practice date. More importantly there is absolutely no rule saying it is illegal to become a member of a high school team if you play on an independent team after the season starts. The rules in Section 4.2 repeatedly state to the contrary. It is obvious how you feel about the bylaws. I would still recommend you get a statement from the LHSAA validating your opinion. |
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Post by soccermomea on Jun 5, 2021 11:21:50 GMT -6
Not an opinion or feeling when it is in black and white for all to see and read.
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Post by firebruin on Jun 5, 2021 11:23:30 GMT -6
Cosmos, you are incorrect. Players have always finished their club season and then reported late to soccer. You can add players throughout the season for a variety of reasons.
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Post by cosmos on Jun 5, 2021 11:50:38 GMT -6
Cosmos, you are incorrect. Players have always finished their club season and then reported late to soccer. You can add players throughout the season for a variety of reasons. I know players can report late for a variety of reasons. As I stated, I have even known of club players reporting late, even though there is typically very little overlap with regular club and high school soccer. I always thought club players could report late, but I was worried after reading the statement from LHSAA and how they phrased it. The whole question was really about playing both at the same time. Hopefully the kids can just report late and be fine if they want to play high school soccer. I was not trying to cause anxiety or push anyone away from the MLS Next. The LSHAA should have just said AT THE SAME TIME below After reading the information you have provided, this league would not fall under 4.2.9.6 or 4.2.9.7 . Any student who participates in this league and participates with an LHSAA member school AT THE SAME TIME during the posted season dates for soccer would be open to sanctions and penalties under rule 5.11.26 The bylaw should also be changed from: 4.2.6 A student-athlete who plays on an independent team shall not have his/her high school eligibility affected, provided such play takes place after his/her school has completed its sports season and/or before he/she becomes a member of a school team in the fall. Participation with an independent team is legal in the following situations: 1. Prior to reporting for the school team for the first official practice date. It should be changed to: 1. Prior to reporting for the school team |
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Post by firebruin on Jun 5, 2021 15:24:40 GMT -6
It's all good... This is similar to the issue that we had a few years ago before a few people decided to press to have the National and Regional league exemptions added.
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Post by soccermomea on Jun 13, 2021 8:43:33 GMT -6
No need for any rule changes Cosmos. Any ambiguities you see are cleared up by the last sentence of Rule 4.2.4:
Once a student becomes a member of an LHSAA team, he/she may not participate with an independent team or an organized exhibition group in the same sport. A student who is a member of an LHSAA school team may not practice with or play in a contest with an independent team in the same sport that the school team he represents is competing. Practicing with or playing on an independent team while a student is a member of the school team in the same sport shall be a violation of this rule. THIS RULE SHALL BE IN EFFECT FROM THE TIME HE/SHE REPORTS FOR THE SCHOOL TEAM UNTIL THE STUDENT IS NO LONGER A MEMBER OF THE SCHOOL TEAM FOR ANY REASON, OR UNTIL THE TEAM HAS COMPLETED ITS SPORTS SEASON INCLUDING PLAYOFFS, IF APPLICABLE.
The controlling language in all of these rules is that they go into effect when the student reports, not when the sports season begins.
Further, Rule 4.1.2 allows each individual coach to determine when his team's "sports season" starts:
The LHSAA sports season for a school team is defined as the period beginning with the opening date of practice AS CALLED BY EACH COACH within the official starting dates and extending through the school teams last game of the season to include playoff games and state championships, if applicable, in a particular sport.
LHSAA declares in the beginning of the section regarding sports seasons that its rule should not be interpreted in a manner to limit opportunities for children:
4.1.1 Philosophically, the LHSAA believes diversification or an involvement in a variety of activities is a good and wholesome thing. . . .It is not the intention of the LHSAA with its rules and interpretations in this area to limit opportunities for boys and girls.
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