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Post by Rainbowcycle on Nov 25, 2003 9:13:39 GMT -6
Power rating has long been overdue in soccer, and now might be a good time to brainstorm the likes of us on a workable system.
In the past some very good teams had to meet each other in the early rounds of the playoffs, leaving at times some very weak teams in the later rounds of the state playoffs.
It should also be noted that although, we call them bi-district rounds, some teams seem to always have to play teams from the same area, year after year, and still have to travel to the other side of the state. Consequently, traveling should not be a parameter in any of the playoff rounds.
What do you think?
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Post by AICWildcat on Nov 25, 2003 17:30:57 GMT -6
Power rankings would be cool but wouldn't that require a lot of work by someone? Last season it was all we could do to get COACHES to vote in the polls.
Personally I don't believe girls soccer is high enough on the LHSAA's agenda to warrant a Power Rating. Football is king, boys sports trump girls sports. That's the way it is.
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Post by Rainbowcycle on Nov 26, 2003 8:58:50 GMT -6
Food for thought: everyone should act as if soccer is as important as any other sport and things will undeniably move. The main factor to consider is economics: a football stadium generates more dollars and cents than any other sports; however, who fills up the stands? The band parents, the cheerleaders' parents, the danceline parents, the soccer parents..., in other words many who are not directly involved with the football team players, but who like the atmosphere of the show.
Basketball probably comes next in terms of revenues, but you would be surprised to see how steadily the soccer sport is growing and closing the gap with every high school sport, but football. That being said, start thinking of a viable system to rate soccer teams at the beginnning of the season and a way to measure their power as the season goes on, and share it with us. Don't worry about participation yet; as soon as some teams will be power rated the others will probably want to jump on the train too...
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Post by Rainbowcycle on Nov 27, 2003 17:46:26 GMT -6
Let's start from scratch.
At the beginning of a season, previous season's results, program tradition, level of coaching, and available talent might appear as some pretty good indicators as to how a team will fare during the upcoming soccer campaign.
If you consider available talent by itself, you should consider four types of players: premier team players, regular team players, non-affiliated team players, and new to the sport team players. Although, talented and skillful players don't by themselves assure success -the NBA is a good example of this observation: where after each bout at least one team loaded with basketball-stars loses- you might agree that it nevertheless gives you a pretty good idea of a team's strength.
Consequently, you might objectively base a team's pre-season strength- based on a 16 player varsity squad - by noting 5 for a premier, 4 for a regular, 2 for an inactive, and 1 for a new player. This method would give us a rating differential in the best of circumstances between 80 (16 premier players times 5 ) and in the least advantageous one of 16 (16 new to the game players times 1).
Teams could be ranked as a IV,III,II or I teams:
IV Strong teams when they rate above 65 up to 80 .
III Good teams when they rate above 50 up to 65 .
II Average teams when they rate above 35 up to 50 .
I Developing teams when they rate up to 35 .
From these preliminary rankings, you can come up with a number of points awarded for wins or ties, goals scored against, or shut outs obtained against a type IV, III, II, or I team. Your comments are welcome!
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Post by lahs00 on Nov 28, 2003 22:59:48 GMT -6
I hope that y'all are involved in LHSSCAA ! The coaches association has a voice with LHSAA - be a part!
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Post by Rainbowcycle on Nov 29, 2003 21:44:36 GMT -6
Now let's say, we would award 2 for a win against a #I team, 4 against a #II team, 6 against a #III team and 8 against a #IV team - in case of a draw half the points; plus one point per goal scored up to three; and no points for shut outs, to preserve the spirit of the game, which is to score goals and not to pack everyone in defense in order to disallow scoring.
As the season progresses, each team accumulates X number of points which project them in one of the four quarters of the rankings A-B-C-D.
A teams being in the highest 1/4 bracket of points
B teams being in the high middle 2/4 bracket of points
C teams being in the low middle 3/4 bracket of points
D teams being in the lowest 4/4 bracket of points
In the first round of the playoffs teams of the "A" and "B" brackets cannot play one another.
In the next round of the playoffs "A" teams cannot play one another.
After that we should be in the quarterfinals with mostly strong teams, not having lost some good deserving teams, as in the past, due to some unjust pairings in the bi-district and regional rounds of the state playoffs.
Write me your comments!
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Post by futbol10 on Nov 30, 2003 20:40:26 GMT -6
im all for that
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Post by barron on Nov 30, 2003 21:04:38 GMT -6
;DSomething surely needs to be done. Many strong teams do meet and some are eliminated early in state playoffs, while much weaker teams remain. In fact, many strong teams don't even make it into the state playoffs, while many much weaker teams do. Your system may not be perfect, but anything would be better than the present system. ;D
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Post by billhicks on Nov 30, 2003 23:32:52 GMT -6
Hey...great idea. I really mean it. However, allow me to play devil's advocate for a moment. Keep in mind, I do like the idea.
When you assign a value to each player, you WILL offend some parents. And...this will be a problem as well: will you give a greater value to the premier players who are members of successful teams(state champions, WAGS winners, etc.). Do you see the problem? You will then have to assign value to each premier team in multiple age groups. YOU WOULD.
Let's be honest here. There are good players not playing premier. Should they be....YES. But, every area, family, and circumstance is unique. You would be stirring up a hornet's nest by assigning "worth" to each team member.
Does football consider every team member? I honestly do not know. I THINK they probably don't...but I am not familiar with the football system. If they do, disregard everything that you have just read.
I think that you have a good idea...better than anything in the works. But...when you start telling parents (that is how it will be taken believe me!) what their child is worth on a field....you will have problems. Maybe I'm wrong and objectivity will work? Some thoughts please....
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Post by ocssoccerfan on Nov 30, 2003 23:37:39 GMT -6
No system is perfect. But to reward teams simply because they have premier or select players I believe is wrong. This system would favor the large urban areas where select leagues exist and punish teams that are from rural areas where those opportunites don't exist. And who is to say that a "bogus" select team wouldn't be formed just to increase the power points? Power points should ONLY be awarded by team performance on the field. Even that can be manipulated by loading your schedule with weak division I teams. As in football, WHO you beat is more important. If you want to reward teams simply because of their lineup, then lets admitt that soccer is also a mental game and start giving points for average ACT scores. Otherwise, life isn't fair, and if you are going to be the best, you have to beat the best, so suck it up and go out and win.
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Post by futbol10 on Dec 1, 2003 12:02:21 GMT -6
Now that I think about it, it sounds like a good idea, but would there be anyway to rank the teams w/o having to give each player a value. You can tell which teams are "good" w/o ranking the players. Also some people who play for a select team may not be as good as the team actually is, or someone who is real good might play for a not so good team. You have to take things like this into consideration.
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Post by Rainbowcycle on Dec 1, 2003 22:08:55 GMT -6
Everyone is making very good sensitive points in regards to the drafting of this project, and this is exactly the intend of this forum: we would like to brainstorm each and everyone of you, and come up with as many different approaches as possible in order to attain a consensus, which would be most satisfying to all parties involved. After everyone will have shared their best ideas, we'll officially put our best possible project on the table, for a vote at an upcoming LHSAA meeting.
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Post by Rainbowcycle on Dec 1, 2003 22:24:03 GMT -6
We do not really intend to tag players with a point value, but rather estimate the strength of the entire squad and this only at the beginning of the season. No one needs to believe that one player is worth any number of points, especially as you mentioned that some inactive, or non traveling team players might not have anything to learn from premiere team youth players. It is interesting to point out though what regular charcoal and diamonds have in common: they both come from the same place, but the first one underwent little if no pressure whatsoever in its surroundings, whereas the latter was confronted to scores of "high pressured" matches, which hardened them to point of becoming the best of the best... The players who made it to the regional pool or national youth teams very seldom, if ever to my knowledge, have come from the former group of players.
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Post by Rainbowcycle on Dec 1, 2003 22:46:43 GMT -6
First, you must understand that making up "bogus select team players" will not help you, but rather will help the other teams score more points, when they'll beat you, so you will be defeating your own purpose by being dishonest; next all players are officially registered. It will be very easy to verify Local, state, regional and federal soccer affiliation numbers.
One of the most important factors that determines successful teams is raw talent and skillful players, you can have the most driven and determined youth squad like the Lake Placid Ice Hockey USA Team who defeated Russia, led by a drastic and knowledgeable coach, but you still wouldn't have won the Winter OLYMPICS had you not gotten the best of the best from college players.
My point is, look at last year's State Soccer Champion teams, Runner-ups and Semi-finalists and count how many of their players have played together for years, in premiere or regular teams, and how many of them have attended clinics, in-state as well as out-of-state soccer camps, ODP try-outs, and who are now pursuing college soccer careers, and you'll understand why they have come so far. You have to purposely distance yourself, from the parents' opinions, and put everything in perpective in order to move forward!
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Post by Rainbowcycle on Dec 1, 2003 23:05:26 GMT -6
Every team is allowed to participate in three tournaments annually, so why not reward those teams taking part in tournaments with bonus points when they win or tie matches?
Each team would earn the regular allotted number of points for each victory or tie againts a type IV, III, II, or I team (i.e. 8-6-4-2 for wins or 4-3-2-1 for ties, plus one point per goal scored up to three)
PLease remmber that the pre-season classification was only arbitrary in its conception, and will modify itself naturally with the determination of the best teams being decided on the field with wins, and consequently points, bringing them steadily up in the standings.
The bonus would entail:
20 points for the Champion
15 points for the runner-up
and 10 points for both semi-finalists.
These bonus points would encourage every soccer program to organize and to take part in tournaments, knowing that it will improve their power rankings.
Bonus points could also be awarded for ditrict champions, second, third and fourth place finishers as follow: 20-15-10-and 5.
Each win in the playoffs would translate in an extra 20 points.
In the end the State Champion will also automatically have the highest power rating, and ranking which is logical by all means!
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Post by billhicks on Dec 3, 2003 0:46:18 GMT -6
I think we may be making this too complicated. Football does it this way...each team starts with zero points. 10 points for every win over any team PLUS you are are awarded 1 point for each win that team has. So, if you beat a team with 10 wins, you are awarded 20 points. This would give an incentive to play tournaments for the extra matches, and playing tough teams late in the season would be rewarded as well because you get the bonus points for their wins. Soccer is not football...WE know this. However, that system is simple and seems to make sense. Is it perfect? NO! Will it be the best for soccer? Maybe. Maybe not. The teams would be seeded by total points at the end of the season and at least we could have some seeding system. Just an idea. This discussion has been positive and thought provoking. Lets keep it that way, and if you have an idea please post it.
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Post by ocssoccerfan on Dec 3, 2003 23:55:37 GMT -6
The tourney idea seems good, but I'm still leary of awarding points to a team based soley on their roster. Is it not concieveable that a class 4 team could go undeafeated and beat alot of quality teams and a class 1 team have a losing record? How would you adjust their standings based on their performance? And even tho I have found the tourney sponsers to "fair" in their braketing, could that not also be manipulated? Maybe a better "playoff" system would be to have 4 regional "super" tourneys and let those winners advance to the semi finals. Your could have 2 brackets with four teams in each tourney, allowing 32 teams to make the playoffs (adding more excitment and $) and the four "best" teams would likely get to the semis. Also, a team making the playoffs would get a minimum of three more games. Teams could be "seeded" in the regional tourneys based on their district standing, won loss record, quality wins, tornament results, whatever everyone would feel was appropriate. Also, you would only need three weekends to finish the palyoffs. Just a thought
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Post by Rainbowcycle on Dec 7, 2003 21:43:04 GMT -6
I like the idea of regional tournaments, if the winners of each of the regionals would advance to play the semis and finals based on their overall records and power ratings:
#1 could play #4, and #2 could play #3 in the semis.
How will you decide how to form the two brackets of four teams for the regionals?
Also, you might have to consider playing one game on a Friday, one on a Saturday morning, and one on Saturday afternoon, or possibly on a Sunday. Wouldn't that be a little too demanding for the players?
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Post by Rainbowcycle on Dec 7, 2003 21:55:45 GMT -6
I understand your concerns about very good teams, who do not carry any premiere players on their rosters; and therefore find themselves rated as a type III, or even II team. But wouldn't you think, that by winning games and proving on the field that they are much stronger than other teams, they will automatically climb quickly in the ratings? By the same token, they will become higher type teams; especially, since they will obtain that many more points by beating teams who were mistakenly ranked as better teams at the beginning of the season. Those teams by the way, as a consequence of their losses will eventually go down in the rankings, and become a lower type team as the season progresses. Example: If you defeat:
a type IV team your team earns 8 points in the ratings
a type III team your team earns 6 points in the ratings
a type II team your team earns 4 points in the ratings
Perhaps, we could come up with a different pre-season rating? I can't think of another objective way to do this though. Tell us your thoughts!
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