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Post by Steven Gerrard on Dec 17, 2006 19:30:15 GMT -6
So, the proper thing to do is to punish the team that got the forfeit? To limit them to only 1 goal, when they could have scored 3 (or 5 or 10)? Hey, brackets are what they are. Sometimes you get an easy bracket and can advance to the semis when you are not the 4th best team, and sometimes you get a hard bracket that causes you to get knocked out when you were the 3rd best team there. That happens. But, a team should not get bumped out of a tournament because its opponent didn't show up. Yes, maybe WM would have only scored 1 goal, or maybe they would have lost. We will never know. But, when there is a forfeit you do not penalize the team that showed up to play. You award them the max amount that they could have earned, which is typically a 3-0 win.
The Tioga tournament is the first that I have ever heard of to only score a forfeit as a "1-0" win. The LSA rules call for a forfeit to be a "3-0" win. I just looked at the rules for the Crossroads of the South tournament (one of the biggest premier tournaments) and they have the same rule. Why? Because you should not penalize the team that was ready to play.
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Post by jus4kicks on Dec 17, 2006 19:33:39 GMT -6
I was just absolutely amazed at how well all of the girls played after such a long day. (I was delirious from exhaustion) I'll definitely have to rest up before our next meeting!
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Post by jus4kicks on Dec 17, 2006 19:34:34 GMT -6
Also - as far as the refs, I'm not so sure they were as aware of the rules as they should have been, but, at least in all of our games, they did a pretty good job. Obviously, they're not going to catch everything...they're not perfect...but it seems that the quality of refs at the tournament and in our district has improved.
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Post by jus4kicks on Dec 17, 2006 19:41:52 GMT -6
Beckham, I can't speak for the tournament coordinator, but I'm sure all of this will be looked at and taken into consideration for any future tournaments. A forfeit is just unfortunate any way you look at it, especially if the ref didn't communicate the rules correctly to the WM coach.
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Post by Mung on Dec 17, 2006 20:27:31 GMT -6
Not to be critical, but I came to this thread to see who won the tourney and maybe get a final game report. You people are falling down on the job. Report!
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Post by dhssoccermom25 on Dec 17, 2006 20:39:39 GMT -6
Tioga Tournament Day 1 DeRidder over West Monroe 3-2 Day 2 DHS over Glenmora 6-0; DHS over Peabody 6-1 (this game was played as 7-7 since that was all Peabody had to play ) Semi final game DHS over Alexandria 2-1 and the Final DHS over Tioga 1-0 in double overtime.
I dont' know all the other scores, sorry Mung, i thought i posted this here but it was on the weekly results thread. As for the final game. It was very intense, hard foght. Both teams were exhausted, but let it all on the field. DeRidder had 14 shorts on goal and Tioga had 7. Our goalie had 4 saves, and they hit the post twice. As I said earlier, the refs were trying to go straight to PKs but we finally got it straightened out and played the 2 ten minutes. Not sure how far into the 2nd OT we were but the goal was by Lydia Chaddik with the assist by Jeanette Coronel. Poss 6 or 7 minutes in. Our goalie had a great save within the last two minutes to save the victory.
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Post by imthebackseatcoach on Dec 17, 2006 20:54:51 GMT -6
Just to clarify, since this was our first tournament, and since I am the one that wrote out the rules, a win was 3 points, a tie was 1 point, a loss 0 points. I am at fault for the 1 goal credit instead of a 3 goal credit. I should have consulted LHSAA and did not. Hindsight is 20-20 and I thought it logical 1 goal be given along with the 3 points for a win. In most instances there is no guarantee a team will score more than 1 goal, so awarding more than 1 goal did not seem logical. We could not say, a win is 3 points and 1 goal, unless it is against Peabody, then we are going to give 3 points for a win and 3 goals. ASH Varsity played Tioga Reserve, most of who have never played soccer before this year, and the rest keep the bench warm for Varsity. The score on that game was 2-0. However, Leesville, who was beaten by everyone they played in the tournament, beat Tioga's Reserve 5-0. Who would have bet on those scores being reversed, i.e., Leesville 2-0 and ASH 5-0? I know I would have, and that is no offense to either team.
I would like to thank Catholic PC's Coach for suggesting that in the future I carry out the rules a step further than goals for and against, such as limiting goals for to 3. That was my error as well as the forfeit error. I have never been to a tournament where a team forfeited and did not forsee the problem, even with Peabody. However, had we gone with goals againt for the tiebreaker first, ASH would have still been the Wildcard because they only had 1 goal scored against at that point and West Monroe had 3 scored against.
I personally spoke to WM's coach as soon as I learned the game was not going forward with Peabody, thinking they had not shown up and ready with an apology to West Monroe's staff. The coach told me Peabody showed up but only had 7 girls. West Monroe had 20 girls on their bench and all wanted to play. They did not want to "beat up" on Peabody's 7, so they chose not to play the game. Now, being a little strung out from the stress of putting on a tournament and not wanting any unhappy participants, I unfortunately did not pick up on the statement at that time that WM was choosing not to play Peabody. Technically, if Peabody had enough to go forward with the game and WM refused to play I am not sure that the forfeit should have been charged against West Monroe instead of Peabody.
But let's address fairness. Yes, Peabody is a struggling first year program. But they want to play soccer. Is it fair they had to forfeit a good shot at winning a game on Friday against Glenmora, who is serving their probation period this year like Peabody did last year, because Peabody has 3 cheerleaders on their team who were required to be at a basketball progam where jerseys were retired, leaving Peabody with only 5 players and giving Glenmora the only win of their tournament? Is it fair that those 5 plus another 2, enough to field a team (yes, 7 is the minimum with which you can begin a game), showed up again Saturday morning to play soccer and West Monroe chose not to play them? I assure you those 7 girls did not care whether they got "beat up" on. They wanted to play soccer. So they sat through the hour they should have been playing and another hour and a half before their next game, just so they could get a game out of the tournament. Was that fair to Peabody? We are finding ourselves in hot water two weeks in a row, and Peabody is involved in both instances. Should we cry foul against Peabody that we're not being treated fairly because their program is not where it should be for them to be in a district or entering a tournament?
I am not trying to open a can of worms after last week's roasting, but we as a country in general put too much emphasis on what's "fair" (which varies depending on whose defintion of fair you are quoting) and "everybody's a winner". Maybe I am the only person old enough to remember there is a winner and loser in a sports competition, that life is not fair, everybody is not a winner, and our job as adults, parents and teachers is to prepare young people for the "real world" not what you want their world to be. Prepare them how to take a win or a loss with respect for themselves and others. Pitching out with a tantrum when something does not go the way we want does not get what we want (and I am speaking of the adults here, not the kids).
Tioga had the most goals for with 14 in 5 games, the best defensive record with only 1 goal scored against, and we still were second place in the tournament. Where is the fairness in that? We did not stack the brackets like some tournaments we have entered, we did not take the easiest teams for ourselves or the best times to play. DeRidder was able to rest all their starters by playing the Peabody game with their subs. Was that fair? We had to make a second team with our reserve players and JV because a team had to pull out of the tournament, leaving us with virtually no bench for 4 games. Was that fair? Fair is like beauty, it's in the eyes of the beholder. I assure you those Peabody girls did not care about fair when they ran off the field last week after playing Tioga, laughing and excited about how good they did. And they did not care about fair when they came off the field laughing and excited Saturday when DeRidder finally gave them a game and they got to do what they have been trying to do all year: play soccer.
I would like to thank everyone who participated in our first, and hopefully not last (as I have threatened during the last month), tournament. We are excited about how well it was received and the compliments received. As always, there is room for improvement. We had some great soccer, some wonderful food and made a lot of new friends.
We just can't seem to play DeRidder without a game going into OT! Or double OT, and I didn't even get to see the end or tell everyone bye because I had to go to work. DeRidder is a rival, but the parents and the girls laugh and joke when not playing, and in this particular element of sports, EVERYONE is a winner. And I have to thank dhssoccermom25 for her help during the tournament. To Brandy, DeRidder's #25, what a great birthday present, to win the tournament on your 18th!
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Post by imthebackseatcoach on Dec 17, 2006 21:12:03 GMT -6
snowbird, my apologies, I thought there were 7 girls there too, not 5. When I found Peabody's coach, he actually had 7 girls with him and I just remembered you making the comment about not wanting to "beat up" on the girls. As I counted the 7, I thought that was how many had actually been there at the beginning of the game too, since this was only a few minutes after I spoke with you. As I said, hindsight is always 20-20 and I did not dot all the i's and cross all the t's or we would not now be pondering this subject. I take full responsibility for the unfortunate circumstances.
The referees were great throughout the tournament and I don't think my error should be a reflection on them. I don't know that it could in any way be construed as their error. And they did have a copy of the rules.
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Post by Steven Gerrard on Dec 17, 2006 21:14:03 GMT -6
Don't get me wrong. I am not complaining about a call on the field that I didn't like or the teams that were in the bracket. Those things happen. And, yes, sometimes things are not fair (like who you draw in a bracket or DHS getting an easy game before the playoffs). I agree with you. But, the rules should be fair. You can't have a tie breaker of goals scored, unlimited, and then limit a team to just a 1-0 score if there was a forfeit. The rules should be fair to all that sign up for the tournament. But, how is it right to limit a team to only 1 goal for a forfeit? Especially when the tie breaker is goals scored, of all things. Most tournaments count a forfeit as a 3-0 score. The reasons are shown above.
Well, we all learn from experiences. Hopefully this will help you work on the rules for next year's tournament. Good luck.
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Post by sosoplayer24 on Dec 17, 2006 21:26:09 GMT -6
imthebackseatcoach - Good explanation to all that happened at your tournament and great speech about fair vs. unfair. Keep up the good work.
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Post by imthebackseatcoach on Dec 17, 2006 21:38:24 GMT -6
Mung, just for you!
Friday night:
Glenmora 1 Peabody 0 (forfeit) Tioga 3 Pineville 0 ASH 2 Tioga Reserve 0 DeRidder 3 West Monroe 2 Catholic PC 3 Bolton 1 Opelousas Catholic 2 Leesville 0
Saturday: Tioga 6 Bolton 0 Opelousas Catholic 4 Tioga Reserve 0 ASH 7 Leesville 0 Catholic PC 1 Pineville 0 West Monroe 1 Peabody 0 (forfeit) DeRidder 6 Glenmora 1
Tioga 1 Catholic PC 0 Opelousas Catholic 1 ASH 0 West Monroe 6 Glenmora 0 Leesville 5 Tioga Reserve 0 Pineville 2 Bolton 0 DeRidder 3 Peabody 1
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Post by snowbird on Dec 17, 2006 22:05:29 GMT -6
Here's the bottom line. WM didn't take care of business on Fri. night.......AND......Tioga needs to revise the rules of their tournament for next year.
Also....to CLARIFY this once again...Peabody had only 5 players and the refs called the game. WM could not choose to not play if there were 7 girls present for Peabody. That would be a forfeit for WM.
This is all history now. Congrats to DeRidder on winning the tournament.
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Post by imthebackseatcoach on Dec 17, 2006 22:12:10 GMT -6
Thanks, snowbird, that sums it all up, the good, the bad and the ugly.
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Post by snowbird on Dec 17, 2006 22:14:21 GMT -6
Thanks for having us there. Like I said, this is history and we have alot more soccer to play this season. Best of Luck.
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Post by dhssoccermom25 on Dec 17, 2006 22:27:32 GMT -6
Nice book imthebackseatcoach! J/k you know i love you!! We did enjoy ourselves and of course the trophies helped (brandy said that) but seriously, what you said about DeRidder and Tioga is very true. Snowbird thanks for the congrats, its our first ever tournament win in 8 years as a program, so we were all very excited. To Tioga's coach, brandy said thanks again for the birithday present! best of luck to all throughout the rest of district.
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Post by snowbird on Dec 18, 2006 1:07:45 GMT -6
WM won the Bossier tournament 3 weeks ago....we know how it feels to finally win a tournament. Winning district is great, but your first tournament win is special (especially after so many 2nd place trophies!)! We just wish we could have had another shot at y'all in the semi's or finals as you are a worthy opponent that made our travel worthwhile. Best of luck in district play. We need to get each other on the regular season schedule in the future. Maybe our stadium and turf field could attract you to visit...and of course we would return the favor.
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Post by allstatebronco on Dec 18, 2006 1:40:52 GMT -6
These are the facts: The refs gave Peabody a 5min grace period. At the end of 5min, Peabody had 5 players. The WM coach was not thrilled about playing against 7 players but would have(had 7 players been present) and would have been forced to run the score up. The refs called the match...not the WM coaches. The score regarding forfeits was not in the tournament rules...it was decided after WM had played all bracket games. The scoreboard just had a "F" for the game and was later changed to 1-0. Here's my question: why was that score posted as an "F" until after pool play was completed? Sounds a little strange to me. I wasn't there but I am assuming that snowbird is not lying about this. I also asked a few other people that WERE there and they confirmed the "F" being posted until after the 11:15 games were completed. Sounds like the tournament director(s) hadn't made up their mind yet. I know that "F" had to be bugging them on the tournament scoreboard. I also heard that it was posted as such on Friday night after Peabody's first forfeit...which leads me to ask why it wasn't taken care of by Saturday morning. Surely the official way of scoring a forfiet had to have been discussed between tournament personnel on Fri. night? If not, shame on you for not knowing that WM should have known what they had to do to put themselves in the best position to advance (read score 25 goals on a Peabody team with 7 players if need be) or score many more on Glenmora. I think I see the rational here: Tioga scores 17 (or however many) on Peobody...Tioga thinks it's OK to do that and makes their tournament rules as to where "running up" the score is rewarded. I agree that WM could have made things easy by just beating Deridder in what seems to have been a close game. My point is that encouraging sportsmanship is not always rewarded (ie. WM coaches not wanting to beat up on a second year team that they could have allowed, refs permitting, to have a 15minute grace period instead of 5 minutes. Oh well....like snowbird said, this is "history." Learn from your mistakes Tioga. Next year, go look at the rules of tournaments such as WAGS or Texas Cup regarding tie-breakers etc. (and yes I know that LHSAA has not adopted all of the FIFA/USYSA rules). Also.....DO NOT let teams into the tournament that you know are having numbers problems (# of players that is). And Tioga cannot plead ignorance to that...you knew they were having # trouble...and they forfeited the first game as well...that should have thrown up some serious RED FLAGS!! Anyhow, sad to see a "tainted" tournament but here is the saving grace: DeRidder won it and beat WM in the process so like snowbird said, "they (WM)" should have taken care of business on Friday night. Congrats to DeRidder on the win. I imagine if there is any consolation for WM, it is that the team that beat them in bracket won it all.
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Post by cenlasocafan on Dec 18, 2006 12:50:10 GMT -6
When I used to run tournaments I always wrote into the tournament rules that a forfeit would be a 3-0 result. This is the most common result amongst tournaments in the United States.
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Post by mswilb on Dec 19, 2006 0:27:41 GMT -6
WM won the Bossier tournament 3 weeks ago....we know how it feels to finally win a tournament. Winning district is great, but your first tournament win is special (especially after so many 2nd place trophies!)! We just wish we could have had another shot at y'all in the semi's or finals as you are a worthy opponent that made our travel worthwhile. Best of luck in district play. We need to get each other on the regular season schedule in the future. Maybe our stadium and turf field could attract you to visit...and of course we would return the favor. Snowbird my contact information is on my profile I am making a list of other school contacts I would definitely like to set something up for next year if you send me some contact information maybe we can make it happen when we start scheduling for next season
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