New league idea

[loJic]

I know, not another one of loJic's crazy idea's about some pro/rel league that would never fly with the LHSAA or the principles. But fear not my fellow hooligans. This is not another promotion/relegation idea. No, this league would be much more complex, involved and more competitive. Probably more involved then most would care to devote their time to. But i'm bored and need to keep the wheels turning up there. So here goes.

This league is going to mimic the World Cup qualifying process. The final goal of this league is to give ALL teams in Louisiana a fighting chance to reach the top tournament, no matter of their enrollment size. Right now the LHSAA has 3 final tournaments to qualify for. All divided by divisions. These 3 tournaments have 88 slots to qualify for. Of course we are all familiar with this process so I need not to go any further. What i'm proposing is that instead of having these 3 tournaments separated by divisions and limiting each tournament's qualifying process to a certain amount of teams. Have 3 tournaments qualify-able by success of competition by all teams.

Tournaments to qualify for.
Louisiana Interscholastic Cup(Top level tournament) - 32 teams
Silver Cup(Second tier tournament) - 32 teams
Bronze Cup(Third tier tournament) - 24

Hopefully you are all with me thus far. The main goal is to have the best of the best play in the top tournament and then so forth and so on.

How do teams qualify for each tournament you ask? Simple.
If you look at our current districts set up you will see that the main goal is to keep travel cost down. Of course separating teams in divisions is in place and therefore creates more travel for some teams(ala Natch Central, Red River). So what I propose is to have regions and governing bodies of each region in place. Just like there are federations. UEFA, CONCACAF, AFC, etc....... There would be regions for each major city and it's closest friends put in place. And just like there are district presidents and meetings and all that fun political jazz there would be regional presidents and meetings and all that fun political jazz. Capiche? This would eliminate any large amount of travel and keep 95% of games within a 30-40 mile radius.


Just in case I lost some of you here is what it would look like.(Just my idea of how it "should" look. I would suggest a voting process on which teams should be where.)
REGIONS[/u]
Shreveport - 14 teams (Capt Shreve, Caddo Magnet, Loyola, Parkway, CE Byrd, Bossier, Airline, Southwood, Calvary, Northwood, Minden, Benton, Red River, Haughton)

Monroe - 8 teams (Neville, West Monroe, St. Frederick, Ouachita, West Ouachita, Ouachita Christian, Ruston)

Alexandria - 11 teams (Alexandria, Bolton, Pineville, Natchitoches Central, Peabody, Tioga, Menard, Leesville, Glenmora, Rapides, Buckeye)

Lake Charles - 5 teams (St. Louis, Barbe, Sulphur, Sam Houston, DeRidder)

Laffayette - 19 teams (Lafayette, St. Thomas More, Acadiana, NISH, Teurlings, Beau Chene, Westminster, Carencro, Comeaux, Westgate, Episcopal Acadiana, Catholic New Iberia, Opelasous, Opelasous Catholic, Northside, Erath, Abbeville, North Vermillion, Notre Dame)

Baton Rouge - 25 teams (University, Dutchtown, East Ascension, St. Amant, St. Michael, Baton Rouge, Woodlawn, McKinley, Episcopal BR, Parkview, West Feliciana, Catholic BR, Zachary, Runnels, Catholic PC, Walker, Dunham, Denham Springs, Central, Live Oak, Tara, Broadmoor, Belaire, Redemptorist, Christian Life)

Northshore - 16 teams (St. Paul's, Fontainebleau, Mandville, Northshore, Lakeshore, Northlake, Pope John Paul, Slidell, Hammond, St. Thomas Aquinas, Ponchatoula, Amite, Independence, Covington, Pearl River, Salmen)

Houma - 11 teams (Vandebilt, Terrebonne, South Terrebonne, Morgan City, Central Lafourche, South Lafourche, H.L. Bourgeois, E.D. White, Houma Christian, Ellender, Thibodaux)

River Parish - 6 teams (Destrehan, Hahnville, East St. John, Riverside, St. Charles, Lutcher)

New Orleans - 28 teams (Jesuit, Brother Martin, Newman, Ben Franklin, Holy Cross, Lusher, De La Salle, Grace King, Bonnabel, West Jefferson, Higgins, John Ehret, Shaw, Rummel, East Jefferson, Haynes, St. Martin's, Country Day, Ecole Classique, Fisher, Thomas Jefferson, Lutheran, O.P. Walker, Belle Chasse, Helen Cox, Sarah T. Reed, Chalmette, Riverdale)

Just a rough draft. But as you can see 85% of teams will travel no further than 20 miles to play an opponent. Now just like the WC qualifiers each region will have it's own qualifying process. You could say that Baton Rouge, Laffayette and New Orleans could be treated like UEFA. Northshore, Alexandria, Houma and Shreveport are like CONCACAF. Monroe like CONMEBOL and Lake Charles and River Parish like OFC. If you are unfamiliar with each federations process here is a link to help further explain. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_FIFA_World_Cup_qualification

Again this is all just the foundation and can be tweaked by the proper governing body.

The final piece to the puzzle is determining which region qualifies for more qualifying slots than others and also how each team is placed into proper competition in their region. The FIFA rankings play a big role in how each team is seeded into their proper places for their federations. Along with which region deserves more slots for the World Cup. But just like others on this board, I feel power ratings are just guidelines and should not be used to dictate placements of teams. But then again, just like we use them as "guidelines" to vote at the end of the year, maybe they are of some use in a system/formula to separate each region/team in their rightful place. Another thing used is to determine a teams placement is previous world cup or major FIFA tournaments success. That could easily be used in this equation. Using prior years success of each team's playoff run. We already have a system in place via: laprepsoccer.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=classics&action=display&thread=6776 Using the last 3 years of playoff success along with the average of the last three years flat3 rating could be formulated somehow into placing teams respectfully where they need to be. Just an idea.

There are far too many variables that go into the depths of this idea. But this is the just of it. Please fire away with questions or point out any downfalls you may see.

The school year is upon us and we are 2 months away from the beautiful game.

[loJic]

Side note: The reasoning behind this idea is that I think of high school soccer being similar to International soccer. There is more pride when playing for you school/country. People coming and going every couple of years is similar to International teams also the talent pools pumping into each program. Each year is different and there is almost no control on how your team may look the following year. Plus it gives the little guys a fighting chance.

[Deleted]

not bad lojic. It offers a championship based on quality of teams. Not just enrollment.

Still, the real dilemma here is whether this will grow high school soccer in La. Not just number of schools/teams but also the quality of play. And inevitably support and game attendance.

There's a lot to be said for regional rivalties.

I know here in NW La, Loyola (recently dropped to a 2 team Div III district) will still play the top Shreveport teams. Most of them twice.

My philosophy has always been to play the toughest schedule possible. I predict Loyola will be a state title contender beginning next year and for the following 3 or 4 years.

I personally don't object to it. But I still think most people would rather say, be a powerhouse d3 team than an average d1 team.

[loJic]

Aug 23, 2011 15:27:51 GMT -6 @hall97 said:

Still, the real dilemma here is whether this will grow high school soccer in La. Not just number of schools/teams but also the quality of play. And inevitably support and game attendance.

And this is where I need to go further in explaining how this idea would do these things.

Using Shreveport for example. Teams would be placed into what FIFA calls them as "Pots". These pots are graded from strongest to weakest which separates really good teams from playing each other in early stages. They then select teams randomly from each pot and place them in their respective groups.

This is how I could see their qualifying process being done.

Pot A	Pot B	Pot C	Pot D
Captain Shreve	Parkway Caddo Magnet Loyola C.E. Byrd	Calvary Bossier	Airline Haughton Southwood Benton Northwood Red River Minden

First Round

Group A	Group B	Group C
Captain Shreve Calvary Bossier Haughton Northwood	Caddo Magnet Loyola Airline Red River Minden	Parkway C.E. Byrd Southwood Benton

First round would be treated just like any other district play. Each team plays each other twice. The top two from each groups would then advance to the second round creating a 6 team group while the others would create two 4 team groups playing for Bronze Tournament honors. Take into account that only 10 teams have played a total of 8 games and 4 have played 6.

Second Round(LA Interscholastic Tournament qualifier)

Top Tier Group

Winner of Group A Winner of Group B Winner of Group C 2nd place Group A 2nd place Group B 2nd place Group C

Again, each team would play each other twice. Top 3 qualify for top tournament 4th and 5th place teams qualify for 2nd tier tournament and 6th place team qualifies for a playoff between Monroe's 4th place team for a 2nd tier spot, if won, or 3rd tier spot, if lost. By now all teams would have played at the most 16-18 games. Which is the most regular season games allowed by the LHSAA. I would suggest to put it at 20 games.

(Bronze Cup qualifier)

Group A	Group B
3rd place Group A 4th place Group B 3rd place Group C 5th place Group A	3rd place Group B 4th place Group A 4th place Group C 5th place Group B

Again, everyone plays each other twice. With the winners from each group qualifying for the 3rd tier tournament. No more than 16 games are played by any team.

Now use your imagination and imagine what the competition would be like in that final top tier qualifying group. Just to use history as an example you would see the likes of Captain Shreve, Caddo Magnet, Byrd, Loyola, Parkway and a Bossier/Calvary. I can assure you that these games would bring attendance up along with keeping the rivalries in tact. And as new schools join and regions grow the qualifying process can be tweaked to where the weaker schools play each other in the first rounds and if they have a competitive squad then they would qualify to further rounds to test their strength against the big dogs.

Also take in to account that the travel is within a 30 mile radius which is what I think the limit is on how far the leisure parents care to travel.

Aug 23, 2011 15:27:51 GMT -6 @hall97 said:

I know here in NW La, Loyola (recently dropped to a 2 team Div III district) will still play the top Shreveport teams. Most of them twice.

My philosophy has always been to play the toughest schedule possible. I predict Loyola will be a state title contender beginning next year and for the following 3 or 4 years.

What I have proposed won't change their schedule one bit.

Aug 23, 2011 15:27:51 GMT -6 @hall97 said:

I personally don't object to it.

At least I have one supporter

Aug 23, 2011 15:27:51 GMT -6 @hall97 said:

But I still think most people would rather say, be a powerhouse d3 team than an average d1 team.

And this is where I get gripped up. Why are we ok with diluting the competition? As we speak there are MLS academies and some clubs that are telling their players to not play high school soccer. And I can agree with their concern of players not being challenged and possibly hurting their potential growth. But what this country is lacking in this sport is passion. The want to play the game not because mom and dad said so, but to play because it is what you desire. It's what you think of when you wake up and go to sleep. Football players play for this passion. When those friday night lights come on it's a feeling you can't describe. You're not just playing for you and your your team but you're representing your school and community. And they're there to back you up 100%. I'm sorry but club soccer lacks passion and there isn't a community or peers backing any of these kids up. Again, the best game i've seen from youth kids, high school or club, was when the U18 Fire RPL team played the Trinidad Tabago All-stars. Game ended 2-1 with 50 people in the stands. Jesuit/St. Paul's, albeit a great game, ended 2-1 with 5,000 people in the stands. Does that make sense? No body cares about club soccer outside the soccer community. Your peers have no connection to your club teams but they'll be there to support you when you play against a rival school or know when the game will be competitive.

Football, Baseball and Basketball thrive on high school as their youth system. We're a HUGE country that is just getting this soccer thing down. There are over 144 high school soccer teams in LA. There are under 100 teams from U15-U18 for clubs in LA. That's 800 less kids participating in this sport. Eliminate high school soccer and eliminate the growth of this sport. Plain and simple.

Loyola shouldn't want to be a D3 power house. They should want to compete against the big dogs and improve their program and soccer within the community.

[Deleted]

Couldn't agree with you more. I've always said that club soccer develops players while scholastic soccer gives the game credibility.

My 13 yr old son happens to be one of those rare American kids that does live and breathe the game. There's a ball in every room.

he can't walk by a ball without banging it off the wall or flicking it up for a couple of juggles. Watches 2 or 3 games a week. Trains 5 days a week (2 of those on his own)

What really needs to happen is that the restrictions on school soccer (high school and college) should be lifted. Make it a 7-9 month endeavor.

That way, club soccer is utilized as a vehicle for showcasing players (kind of like aau basketball)

I've been too both region 3 and national championship tournaments. Not more than a few hundred people at any given game. Little to no media coverage.

Loyola has a new coach. I have spoken with him. He wants to make high school soccer a big deal for the players and the school.

Loyola is supposed to be d3 based on enrollment. I think they should still play up at d2.

[loJic]

Aug 24, 2011 13:39:46 GMT -6 @hall97 said:

Couldn't agree with you more. I've always said that club soccer develops players while scholastic soccer gives the game credibility.

My 13 yr old son happens to be one of those rare American kids that does live and breathe the game. There's a ball in every room.

he can't walk by a ball without banging it off the wall or flicking it up for a couple of juggles. Watches 2 or 3 games a week. Trains 5 days a week (2 of those on his own)

What really needs to happen is that the restrictions on school soccer (high school and college) should be lifted. Make it a 7-9 month endeavor.

That way, club soccer is utilized as a vehicle for showcasing players (kind of like aau basketball)

I've been too both region 3 and national championship tournaments. Not more than a few hundred people at any given game. Little to no media coverage.

Loyola has a new coach. I have spoken with him. He wants to make high school soccer a big deal for the players and the school.

Loyola is supposed to be d3 based on enrollment. I think they should still play up at d2.

I wasn't taking a shot at Loyola. Im aware of their unfortunate predicament with having to play down. I was just using them as an example. They're a great program.

In the end I guess I'm just making these ideas too radical for anybody to participate in. Its frustrating seeing that there is a better way but knowing it's a steep uphill battle. I just want to see the day when the final 32 teams go head to head they are the best 32 teams in the state.

[happyjack]

Sadly, the powers that be at Lhsaa and the principals who have to approve this by vote likely would never go for it. I know at least one coach who has tried to propose a promotion/relegation system and couldn't even get support of the principals in his district, even though he had support of the other schools coaches.

[Deleted]

Have to agree with jack. it's a tough sell because it goes against conventional wisdom as far as the LHSAA is concerned.

No offense taken on the Loyola thing. They will have a good run over the next 3 or 4 years. And i think highly of the new coach.

I agree with them playing d2 but for some reason no one spoke up. Stupid having a 2 team district anyway.

The key obviously will be playing the top north la teams and playing the more competitive high school tournaments.

[loJic]

Bump

[barnacle13]

This also takes care of the problem of weak teams making the playoffs out of weak districts, while stronger teams sit at home and watch. Those same weak teams could still make a lower teir tournament, while the stronger (even mid-level) programs would still have a chance to play in the tournaments at some level. There's nothing more disappointing than having a good season and watching a team you rolled play in the playoffs while your season ends.

It would definitely take some work and a lot of politicking, but it would bring things more in line with the world stage and would promote local rivalries and shorter travel times. I like the idea. Question is could it ever become a reality?

[pOkLE]

First time I've taken the time to read it all and digest. I have to say it seems pretty brilliant for separating teams yearly based on fluctuating talent pool.

I think the real challenge is to find enough regional representatives that are involved enough to accurately select the "pots" in the beginning of each tournament cycle. Heck, maybe more would participate in preseason evaluation of teams if had an effect on seeding process from the get-go. I think for the long-term that student population is an easy tool to apply no matter who's in charge, etc. That's the difficult sell, that soccer would have enough hands on people long-term to handle the yearly seeding, scheduling process. With that being said, how would the scheduling work? Most coaches work on schedules at the end of the previous school year. Would pots be selected as soon as the cups declare winners?

People will still complain when the team they beat in the opening stages wins the Silver Tournament while they lose out in the Gold Cup (or the "LIC") ..... but, in the end, i think this would create great local rivalries and lessen budgets (at least a little).

A possible down-side could be the increased pressure early in the season (depending on scheduling) to get wins instead of working on long-term development (not that wins and development are mutually exclusive). I know some coaches, including myself, like the idea of having difficult, non-district games as the lead up to more important, district games; this system seems to start the qualifying process as soon as the season starts.

[loJic]

Oct 26, 2012 13:39:20 GMT -6 pOkLE said:

I think the real challenge is to find enough regional representatives that are involved enough to accurately select the "pots" in the beginning of each tournament cycle.

There's a formula for that. Just like the they use for FIFA. Right now this is how the Alexandria area woulds start off the year. This just going off of a 3 group 4 team style first round qualifier.

Group A	Group B	Group C
Alexandria Natch Central Tioga Grace Christian	Menard Leesville Rapides Peabody	Bolton Pineville Buckeye Glenmora

Of course that's just doing a snake down the rankings. But a pot draw could be used if the coaches are willing to participate. If not then let the ranking place your fate.

With this group everyone would play each other twice and the top 2 from each would head to a Hex style group to determine the placement of their final tournament destination.

Edit: If coaches are willing to fully participate then instead of the snake down the rankings there would be a need for a "Pot" placement. In this case the pots would look like this.

Pot A
Alexandria
Menard
Bolton

Pot B
Pineville
Natch Central
Leesville
Tioga

Pot C
Rapides
Buckeye
Glenmora
Peabody
Grace Christian

[barnacle13]

At the end of the day there is no perfect system for determining who should play whom in the playoffs. While the district games are certainly important, divisional matches can potentially have just as much impact. A subpar district performance no longer keeps you out of the playoffs if you win your share of divisional matches. Scheduling can definitely get you in the playoffs. Playing the good teams early sets you up for a better run through district and the playoffs, but if your goal is simply to be in the playoff hunt, the new rules for wildcards could water things down. With this proposal, you are guarnteeing that the best of the best will be meeting in the playoffs and that median and lower tier teams still have a dog in the fight. Local rivalries could certainly intensify support and maybe even draw more media coverage. I like this proposal, but recognize it would take some serious work to make it happen.

You might also see some regional rivalries form with this format over time as for instance Northshore region wins 4 championships in a row. Everyone would be gunning to knock off Northshore teams and unseat their region at the top.

[loJic]

Oct 26, 2012 14:37:25 GMT -6 barnacle13 said:

I like this proposal, but recognize it would take some serious work to make it happen.

Serious work is an understatement....lol

[chelsea007]

I still like promotion and relegation but with a caveat for the current D3 and D2 schools that want to avoid the big boys. So what is the new twist? You can lose in the playoffs but not be eliminated. It is kind of like the 3rd place team from bracket play in the Champions league being kicked over to the UEFA (Europa) Cup. They are out of the Champions League but entered into another competition. In this way, as Hall stated, the best play the best while the sport continues to grow. I wil use the Northshore as an example as that is what I am familiar with.

There are only 5 schools in "Division I" under the promotion/relegation concept. The top 4 teams from each district make the playoffs. Lets say Covington ends up 5th and is relegated. St. Thomas Aq., the 4th place team loses in round 1 of the "Division I" playoffs. They are then kicked down into the "Division II" playoff bracket. Remember under the original proposal, only the top two teams from Division II made the playoffs. If that is the case, then 32 teams (16 from DII, 16 dropped from DI) will be in the playoffs. The "dropped" DI teams will have to be road teams for the entirety of the DII playoffs in an attempt to ensure an honest effort in the first round of DI. In the event that two "dropped" teams play one another, the higher seeded squad will play as the host. As for the losers in the "Division II" playoffs, they too are "dropped into the Division III first round, once again, as road teams for its entirety. As stated above, in the event that two "dropped" teams play one another, the higher seeded squad will play as the host. If both are seeded the same, the one from the lowest original Division would host. To do this, the Division I playoffs would have to start 10 days earlier than DII and DII would have to start 5 days earlier than DIII. The up side to this is that, as the games play out in DI, the longer period between matches would, imo, allow for better play. In short, this is what I came up with after some discussions on promotion/relegation. Before you bash away, I realize the LHSAA will never go for it. But I just like seeing a level playing field that could challenge the best while growing the sport in the lower levels of play. As always...just my thoughts,
Coach Inman

[p_malinich]

loJic & I were just discussing this yesterday.... (there you go, barnacle)

[barnacle13]

Thanks for helping me out on a lazy day!

[loJic]

In a world where rankings don't exist, just two teams on a field playing for glory

[deobserver]

Lojic! This is brilliant a brilliant idea

[11wolverines]

Aug 23, 2011 13:15:42 GMT -6 loJic said:

I know, not another one of loJic's crazy idea's about some pro/rel league that would never fly with the LHSAA or the principles. But fear not my fellow hooligans. This is not another promotion/relegation idea. No, this league would be much more complex, involved and more competitive. Probably more involved then most would care to devote their time to. But i'm bored and need to keep the wheels turning up there. So here goes.

This league is going to mimic the World Cup qualifying process. The final goal of this league is to give ALL teams in Louisiana a fighting chance to reach the top tournament, no matter of their enrollment size. Right now the LHSAA has 3 final tournaments to qualify for. All divided by divisions. These 3 tournaments have 88 slots to qualify for. Of course we are all familiar with this process so I need not to go any further. What i'm proposing is that instead of having these 3 tournaments separated by divisions and limiting each tournament's qualifying process to a certain amount of teams. Have 3 tournaments qualify-able by success of competition by all teams.

Tournaments to qualify for.
Louisiana Interscholastic Cup(Top level tournament) - 32 teams
Silver Cup(Second tier tournament) - 32 teams
Bronze Cup(Third tier tournament) - 24

Hopefully you are all with me thus far. The main goal is to have the best of the best play in the top tournament and then so forth and so on.

How do teams qualify for each tournament you ask? Simple.
If you look at our current districts set up you will see that the main goal is to keep travel cost down. Of course separating teams in divisions is in place and therefore creates more travel for some teams(ala Natch Central, Red River). So what I propose is to have regions and governing bodies of each region in place. Just like there are federations. UEFA, CONCACAF, AFC, etc....... There would be regions for each major city and it's closest friends put in place. And just like there are district presidents and meetings and all that fun political jazz there would be regional presidents and meetings and all that fun political jazz. Capiche? This would eliminate any large amount of travel and keep 95% of games within a 30-40 mile radius.


Just in case I lost some of you here is what it would look like.(Just my idea of how it "should" look. I would suggest a voting process on which teams should be where.)
REGIONS

...and North Desoto plays with who?  Texas League, Oklahoma League or Arkansas League.