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Post by happyjack on Feb 17, 2013 19:11:47 GMT -6
Was watchingnthenflorida high school soccer finals and found it interesting they still use the 3-whistle system. Instead of referee and ARs they have 3 referees with whistles, and while 2 stay more wide for offside, all 3 are on the field and are calling fouls. Didn't realize anyone was still using this.
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Post by pOkLE on Feb 18, 2013 6:21:58 GMT -6
I'm not sure about the "still" using this aspect. When I played FHSAA soccer, we had the regular ref with 2 ARs (one whistle). I wonder when this was added. I graduated in '99 and my brother played through '07 and I don't ever remember 3 whistles .....
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Post by Steven Gerrard on Feb 18, 2013 8:02:55 GMT -6
How is the three whistle system, in practice, any different then what is used in Louisiana? As an AR, I can call fouls that I see on the field. Instead of a whistle, I wiggle my flag. So, how is that any different?
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Post by pOkLE on Feb 18, 2013 8:20:26 GMT -6
Looks like my memory actually works occasionally; FHSAA adopted in January '07 and implemented in winter '07 (brother graduated in May '07). Learn something new everyday: did not realize this system even existed, and no clue it was called the "Double Dual System of Control" (or the 3-whistle system).
As I was reading the rationale behind implementation, I found myself nodding in agreement of the potential positive effects. But by the end I wondered if 3 referees on the field would create confusion -- "closer" to the play is not always "better"; shortened reaction time to violation is not necessarily needed (determination whether advantage materializes requires delay); dividing critical decision-making responsibility amongst 3 referees would lead to inconsistency (and referee shortage--how many associations can staff 3 refs per game capable of making consistent critical decisions?); as far as diffusing stresses ... ha! if anything, I'll have to yell louder since no AR will be near.
Then as I read and realized it required duals (not double duals until playoffs), I realized the legislation or rule adoption should have been entitled: "FHSAA Eliminates Assistant Referees in Soccer".
In the double dual system of control, does the fourth official (come playoff time) get a whistle, too? and have to run around benches maintaining control?
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FHSAA Adopts the Double Dual System of Control (2007)
The Florida High School Athletic Association (FHSAA) sanctioned the sport of soccer thirty years ago. Since its inception, soccer has grown in popularity with participation now by over 400 member schools in both boys and girls classifications. The total number of student-athletes participating in soccer ranked second among girls sports (11,969) and fifth among boys sports (12,464) in 2005-06.
Along with the growth in popularity, soccer has produced the largest number of Unsporting Conduct Reports to the FHSAA Office over the years. Currently, boys winter soccer represents the largest number of ejections in any sport and girls soccer places sixth among student-athletes. Overall, soccer produces more than 43% of the Gross Unsporting penalties. A gross unsporting infraction is not represented by a “professional foul” of a sport, but is the result of a malicious act including, but not limited to, cursing, striking, physical contact beyond the normal scope of a contest, spitting on another person, verbal insults related to gender, race or ethnicity, and any other act deemed as unacceptable conduct either by the principal of the member school the athlete attends or the FHSAA. A heavy influence of non-school based coaches and outside organizations has caused the FHSAA to struggle in maintaining the balance of sport as an educational extension of the classroom.
In 1973, Joseph Bonchonsky introduced an idea for soccer officiating that called for shared authority and the reduction of “off-the-ball” fouls by allowing three referees on the field with whistles. This system of officiating was created to give the officials more of a presence on the field. With the athletes of today, their speed, agility, and strength are better than ever and in high school soccer this has caused a lot of concern in regard to good sporting conduct and the ability of some referees to “keep up” with the game.
The National Federation of State High School Associations (NFHS) has made provisions for the use of the Double Dual System of Control (DDS/Three Whistle System) for many years. After several years of research and experimentation, the FHSAA Board of Directors in March of 2007 decided it was time to try the Double Dual System of Control in Florida. Starting in the fall of 2007, all officials in Florida will officiate soccer with a whistle. Games will be officiated utilizing the Dual System (2 officials) or Double Dual System (3 officials), will all officials assigned areas of responsibility on the field.
The National Intercollegiate Soccer Officials Association’s (NISOA) publication The Double Dual System of Control states there are indicators that the DDS implementation provides several advantages when used properly:
1. Greater Officiating Resources—More officials are involved in the enforcement of rules;
2. Increased Surveillance—The system gains strength from increased observance and control of play and players by three referees, rather than a single referee;
3. Close Proximity to Play—Brings decision-making referees physically closer to play, players and occurrences that need to be observed and controlled in view of the flexibility of movement within the system;
4. Spontaneous Decisions—Shortens reaction time to violations by eliminating the need for one official to signal a decision-making official for action;
5. Behind Play Fouls Better Controlled—Helps reduce unpenalized violations behind an officials back by having decision-making referees at each end of play as well as in the middle;
6. Distributes Game Demands—Burden of making critical decisions becomes a responsibility of all three referees instead of one. Thus the psychological and emotional stresses generated by coaches, players and spectators are diffused.
We look forward to the use of the DDS in Florida high school soccer and encourage all coaches and administrators to work with their local officials association to become more familiar with the system, for all FHSAA state series events will be conducted with this system.
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Post by pOkLE on Feb 18, 2013 8:22:32 GMT -6
How is the three whistle system, in practice, any different then what is used in Louisiana? As an AR, I can call fouls that I see on the field. Instead of a whistle, I wiggle my flag. So, how is that any different? uh, duh, you get to blow a whistle and never get waived off by the buffoon in the middle. in other words, no checks or balances: you see it, you blow it (and quick!)! |
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Post by Steven Gerrard on Feb 18, 2013 8:50:37 GMT -6
How is the three whistle system, in practice, any different then what is used in Louisiana? As an AR, I can call fouls that I see on the field. Instead of a whistle, I wiggle my flag. So, how is that any different? uh, duh, you get to blow a whistle and never get waived off by the buffoon in the middle. in other words, no checks or balances: you see it, you blow it (and quick!)! Thanks for the mature response to my question trying to provoke discussion on the subject. |
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Post by pOkLE on Feb 18, 2013 9:01:04 GMT -6
uh, duh, you get to blow a whistle and never get waived off by the buffoon in the middle. in other words, no checks or balances: you see it, you blow it (and quick!)! Thanks for the mature response to my question trying to provoke discussion on the subject. Wow, seriously, a bit harsh this morning?! I guess it makes sense that no humor is allowed on the ref section. I guess i haven't contributed enough to the "discussion" (by posting the rationale behind using the system) to be able to goof off .... I did actually provide a difference in my response, one that I don't think is positive (hence the humor). There's definitely a difference between you waiving your flag (and waiting for ref to acknowledge or waive you off) and you having a whistle. One stops play instantaneously and the other requires an evaluation/acknowledgment by central authority of game. Maybe my initial response wasn't as artfully worded but I think it expressed the same idea. Boo on raining on my light-hearted response parade. Given that I don't know a lot about this system ... I'm sure there's a protocol to be followed which establishes a central authority and assistants in some respect, but really don't know. Maybe you can fill me in ..... |
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Post by laffysoccermom on Feb 18, 2013 15:17:57 GMT -6
I don't know about the three ref system but having played dual ref in middle school for two years- not a fan. Guess it is good for cost savings but that's it.
It also may be better than one ref although I'm not really sure.
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Post by cardsinhand on Feb 18, 2013 16:58:37 GMT -6
I don't know about the three ref system but having played dual ref in middle school for two years- not a fan. Guess it is good for cost savings but that's it. It also may be better than one ref although I'm not really sure. Depend on who the "one" ref is.  Did I say that out loud? Good comments Pokle, it will be easier to see who sits on players!  Humor is back! |
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Post by rlb2024 on Feb 18, 2013 20:57:45 GMT -6
So the same folks that brought us the change in uniform rules that will make all high schools in Louisiana buy new home kits next season for no good reason (NFHS) came up with this three-whistle system that once again makes high school rules completely different from how the game is played all over the world.
Lovely . . .
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Post by laffysoccermom on Feb 18, 2013 21:56:24 GMT -6
Who is NFHS and why are we listening to them?
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Post by time2retire on Feb 19, 2013 13:42:34 GMT -6
NFHS is the national governing body concerning high school soccer. Each state can choose to be a part of NFHS or be independent. The most recent to join was Washington DC in 2012.
Having worked the three whistle system, I didn't care for it. The most sensitive referee dictates how low the threshold for a foul is. With a standard diagonal system, the referee has time to process whether the contact was actually a foul, wait for advantage to develop, and (most importantly) control misconduct. Can you imagine giving a brand new referee the whistle RIGHT AWAY? It doesn't work.
Also, Pennsylvania uses this system, but the referees change positions every 25 minutes. Now imagine having the same referee blow offside calls for the same team for more than half of the game...I don't think that's right.
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Post by laffysoccermom on Feb 19, 2013 15:18:19 GMT -6
We've had brand new refs in center at tourneys before when the team was younger, it didn't work well at all.
Thankfully that hasn't happened in a while. I think being an AR for a whole gives them the chance to grow into it and maybe center reffing younger rec games.
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Post by time2retire on Feb 19, 2013 23:26:30 GMT -6
Referee associations vary greatly. Some have no training and developmental programs and it shows; others place emphasis on mentorship and shaping the official as a whole. The referee has to have the motivation, otherwise, the mentor is wasting his time.
There are games where newer referees can benefit from having the whistle, with the right "supporting cast". And then, there are some teams who don't understand that I may not want to run 2 middles in a day and they just happen to be assigned the junior referee of the crew to have the whistle.
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Post by kevin on Feb 20, 2013 10:24:07 GMT -6
What's worse than one idiot with a whistle?
Two idiots with whistles.
What's worse than two idiots with whistles?
Three idiots with whistles!
(Just kidding!)
Seriously, though, I cringe every time I see the two-ref system. They have to stay in position to watch offside calls, so they're often miles away from the action. This bizarrely named double-dual system avoids that problem, but it seems like the only real difference from the normal one center+2 AR system is that the side referees run around on the field and get whistles. Where's the advantage in that?
I understand the two-ref system from a cost-saving perspective, but if you're going to use three people I don't see why two of them can't just stay on the touchlines and carry flags.
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Post by laffysoccermom on Feb 20, 2013 12:50:49 GMT -6
In our instance, although one of the asst refs had been reffing since dinosaurs roamed the earth, I didn't see her providing any assistance or maybe it wasn't being received....
Poor child ref actually told a coach that she didn't know what the call was but she had stopped play and was giving the other team the ball in our box. Needless to say that didn't go over very well...
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Post by time2retire on Feb 20, 2013 15:57:24 GMT -6
Doing something forever doesn't make you an expert. Just look at happyjack.
(Just kidding)
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Post by happyjack on Feb 20, 2013 19:49:17 GMT -6
Doing something forever doesn't make you an expert. Just look at happyjack. (Just kidding) Amen brother, amen |
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Did I say that out loud?
Humor is back!
