LCSL referee question

[offtherecord]

Pinetar are you an assignor or an assessor? If there are so many inexperienced referees what are you doing to prepare them? Do you think it is ok to just give them a test and throw them in the deep end? Again, I am talking about referees who do not have a good basic understanding of the rules who are on competitive level games. I'm not asking about the ones who make a mistake or two. I'm asking about the ones who don't even know what the right decision is or why! How do they get assigned the competitive games?

[Steven Gerrard]

Feb 26, 2013 15:33:50 GMT -6 offtherecord said:

Has there ever been an abundance of officials? This has been the excuse for years upon years. Something else has to be done to make sure officials are prepared. Why are there no requirements beyond passing the test? Anyone can study and pass a test, but it takes practice to make quick decisions in game situations, etc. Why are there not a minimum number of game requirements before officials are placed in games that "count"?

Actually, the test is not that easy.  For a grade 8 ref, it is 100 questions.  And, they are not "blue kicks the ball out, who gets the throw in?"  I would bet that a vast majority of parents would fail the test.  Like I say, the questions are much trickier then you would expect.  But, yes, you are right.  As a ref, like a player, you only get better with game experience. 

I suspect that the other areas of the state are just like NELSA.  We have a limited number of experienced refs to call games.  If we had multiple LCSL game going at the same time, we would have to stretch those refs across those games.  And, when it came to ARs for the U11s, those would have to get the refs with less experience then the others.  Trust me, assignors are not pulling experienced refs away from a U11 LCSL game to cover a U10 rec game.  Or, probably any rec game for that matter.  They are going to try to get the best refs they have available to cover that game.  That doesn't mean that they will be top flight refs. 

And, lastly, you might be surprised at the level of experience of the refs of whom your are discussing.  I have no idea if those guys/girls have years of experience or none.  But, I know that have seen parents in the past complain about the quality of refs who I know have years of experience at high levels.  So, maybe the refs on the U11 game in question did have experience?  (the point about confusion over the high school throw in rule is real and is a challenge faced when going from one season to the next). 

[laffysoccermom]

I don't think it's an excuse. It's a fact. There aren't enough experienced refs to cover the games. You have to take what they have available or drastically reduce your number of games.

We can't clone experienced refs unfortunately.

[offtherecord]

Thanks for your comments and your time. However, my questions and concerns have not been heard or answered. I will seek answers elsewhere.

[laffysoccermom]

Good luck with getting your questions and concerns answered.

[happyjack]

Feb 26, 2013 16:40:12 GMT -6 offtherecord said:

I feel like I'm banging my head against a wall and no one is hearing my questions. I'm not bashing referees. There are some great ones out there. I know that. There are not enough of them. I know that too. But when I see an official who is struggling, really struggling in a game with basic calls it makes me question why they are there. Why they are not prepared! You can't tell me there are not enough friendly games, rec games, practices, etc going on around the state where they can receive adequate training BEFORE being assigned to LCSL games.

I'll take a shot at answering...
i serve on the state referee committee, and my position is coordinator of referee development.  I am a grade 5 referee, have been for 17 years.  I am also an instructor, assessor, and assignor.  You ask why referees aren't prepared?  It's a simple answer...they aren't prepared because they do not take the time to prepare.  Training is available for referees, but they have to be available and want it.  Much of our training takes place during tournaments when we run academies, and these are primarily geared to the upwardly mobile referees.  We also do field training at tournaments for lower level referees, some take it and learn, others aren't as participatory.  As with player commitment level, you have the same for referees.  Those who want to learn and advance seek input, advice, training, and feedback.  This is a small percentage of our referee base.  Most are looking to make money on the weekend, and do it because they enjoy it.  When people start giving them grief, they look for other ways to spend their weekend.

  We have 5 grade 5 referees( state 1).  I doubt you'll ever see them on a U-11 match as they are doing higher level games.  We have about 15 grade 6 (state 2)' doubt you'll see them for the same reason.  These leaves about 30 grade 7 referees, which are spread throughout the state.  as an assignore, the numbers dont work to guarantee youll have the best, not when lcsl plays in multiple locations and higher aged teams are playing as well.  so, while you dont want to hear it, to a certain degree it is a numbers game.  I see emails every week from assignors looking for referees for games that aren't covered.  The number of programs and games have bypassed the number of available referees.

Now, throw into the mix that LSA has added the LCSL, where every game means something, every game is a must win.  Tensions are high, players are trying harder, coaches need to win (in some cases) in order to keep their jobs.  And parents, who have paid handsomely to have their kids here, expect perfection from everyone...coaches, players, and referees.  In an ideal world, every referee will have the highest commitment and take their training seriously, but we don't live in an ideal world.  The state referee committee tries to make a tournament in every area at least annually to work with referees, but at a tournament with 200+ games and 150 referees working, there is no way we can cover and assist each referee. So, we have to pick and choose.  We ask assignor a who are their up and coming referees with potential, and we focus on those for the most feedback.  LSA has stepped up and provided funding for training, and we take it very seriously, and try our best to address it.

is it working?  Yes, ask any coach at state cup (and we do) if the level of officiating is getting better, and they will say yes.  Is it perfect? Not by a long shot.  We have a lot of work to do, but we can't do it alone.  We are losing experienced referees yearly due to age and other committments outside of soccer.  Others do fewer games, or pick and choose what matches to do.  You can't go and do 10 games every weekend and not expect it to take a toll, so they do fewer games.  So, in the end, it is a numbers game.  More big games,fewer referees that are qualified to do it.  Years ago I started refereeing because our association was short, so I took the course to help out.  I've enjoyed it, and both my boys referee as well.  One loves it and has advanced very well, but now has work committments that keep him away from the field.  The younger one does it, but views it as a chore.  And we see this with many levels and ages.  There is no silver bullet that will cure this.  

And people don't want to hear it, but in reality, we'd love those who think the officials are doing a poor job take the class and join the ranks.  The view with a whistle in your hand is infinitely different than when sitting in a chair on the sideline.

i hope this provides some answer to your question, and if not, I'd be happy to discuss further, as would any member of the state referee committee.  We know we don't have all the answers, and will gladly take suggestions and input from anyone.  You can PM me if you'd like, and the members of the state referee committee are all listed in the referee section of the LSA website, along with contact info..Feel free to contact any of us.

[pOkLE]

Feb 26, 2013 21:08:48 GMT -6 happyjack said:

I'll take a shot at answering...

Here I was about to get all sarcastic and since offherrocker was making me .

Looks like happyjack has much better game management skills then I do!

[laffysoccermom]

POkle... Me too and I used to feel somewhat like he or she does.... Go HappyJack!

[copakid14]

Good info happyjack. Attempting to actually provide legitimate information relevant to the question has become rare on this board. Instead we like to immediately jump to conclusions that because someone is a parent of a child and has an issue with the system, they must have no clue what they are talking about and must go become a referee to know what it's like. If an accountant screws up my taxes because they don't understand the tax law I shouldn't have to become a CPA to do it myself. This same attitude is one reason clubs lose members because no one wants to hear a complaint of a parent who surely knows nothing about soccer. This subject comes up regularly in the comp committee meetings and money is certainly a factor. I listened to Bill Rushing explain why it will be difficult to host the u12 state cup in Hammond because the better referees will be reluctant to travel for these level games and the money they make from them. I can also tell you that I have seen first hand many times where the referee crews are much more "inexperienced" for LCSL games in a neutral location between two teams not from the club hosting the match. There is very much a mentality that younger age girls soccer is not competitive and many referees call fouls that are not fouls because a girl falls down. It is naturally engrained in our culture and society to protect young children so that's understandable. The truth of the matter is that as youth sports continues to become more specialized at an earlier age, the competitiveness and level of play for the younger players will continue to increase. The training opportunities that happy jack mentions are good ways to increase the quality of the officials, but I think it should mandatory if you are to work league games to attend a certain amount of "continuing education" like this.
Finally, I will say I was at the game offtherecord refers to in Lafayette this past weekend and in fact coached in it. It was an absolute joke and became comical on the sideline to witness the referee who did not know the signal for offside or a goal kick. It was also funny to watch the AR's and center try to determine what was a corner as every LCSL game we play in Lafayette never has corner flags. Those of us that are supposedly "in the know" need to quit dismissing things so quickly and jumping to conclusions. We are the ones that can help make a difference within our clubs.

[offtherecord]

Thanks HappyJack for your thoughtful response. I really do appreciate it. I understand all of what you said. It is human nature that we do what is required. Very few (as you noted) take the time to go beyond what is required to get better. Now that LSA has created the LCSL and all games do mean something, is it now time to raise the minimum requirement for referees? I think the burden of this would fall on the local referee associations to provide the opportunities. The state level can only do so much and reach so many.

Again, I am not stating that all officials are doing a poor job. I realize that a top level official will not be on a U11 game. But time and time again I am seeing some (not all) NEW/INEXPERIENCED (not youung) officials who are not ready for competitive level games. I just want to see more done to get them ready before they are put into the competitive situations.

I do want to send you a PM with a couple specific questions. Thanks again for your time.

[laffysoccermom]

I agree with the continuing education but what do you do if there aren't enough refs willing to do that to ref all the games? Most have other jobs, go to school, play soccer, etc. If it's a priority then they would make time and probably already are making the time.


Also will continuing education always produce better refs? Maybe, I don't know.

Maybe one solution is to pay certain grade refs more, both teams would have to request and they would be paid more. You wouldn't have to pay the extra if a ref of the grade you requested wasn't available. Keep raising their price until supply meets demand. I know there's a lot wrong with this idea. Just throwing it out there. However, it might provide some incentive for refs to continue their development.



I

[Steven Gerrard]

One more thing to throw out there. As a coach, if you have questions about the refs who just did your game, you should communicate that to the assignor responsible for assigning refs to that game. Without that feedback, the assignor may not know if the refs are doing the job or not. Your feedback doesn't have to be overly critical or rude. Just feedback. Like saying that the AR doesn't know the proper signals. The assignor needs to know those things. Otherwise, he may have the mistaken assumption that the refs are doing just fine.

[pOkLE]

Unfortunately, in our culture teams "must win" so early and often that we forget referees (like players) need practice to get better...and even after that practice (like players), they will still make mistakes. Does that mean some teams get screwed? I guess. But I'd much rather my U11 team get the short end of the officiating stick than my U15-U18s. Don't get me wrong, young teams and girls teams probably get the worst refs ... and as I've complained to my HS ref assignor, it's those games that sometimes need the better referees.

As for stricter requirements, it's a catch-22 (especially since the training opportunities are there). Making stricter requirements for a profession/hobby that lacks numbers could have the opposite effect (and shrink the amount of refs available). No matter the requirements, the time will come where there are not enough referees qualified enough to handle the matches scheduled and needing assigned. What then? At some point education happens on the field since games just need to be staffed.

Also, I guess my perspective comes from the opposite end of the playing spectrum. As an adult player, it is often times difficult to coordinate adult work schedules, play dates and referee availability. More than once there have been no referees (or not enough) available to work our games, thus no game on that day. Well, problem is that was the day all the players could make. Most all the adults could care less who officiates; they just want to play--but not an option. I've complained numerous times about how much referees control game times, locations, etc (as Mark alluded to), but in the end it is a cold, hard fact that they have more say-so than I as far as when/where games (especially) upper-level games will be held. I'd much rather have the option to run a dual or substitute in a less qualified ref. My assignor does not give that option.

So, flipped around on the youth side: would you rather: not play at all, play games with under-qualified refs, or have the referee assignor set your game schedule?

By and far there are people on the club level and state-wide (often the same people) that work tirelessly to improve the refereeing quality. So, I guess my knee-jerk reactions has become, "stop complaining" (especially when the example that started this thread, though it had the caveat of "MANY" other examples, focused on a foul throw-in). Should your players be worrying about the incorrect throw-in call at half-field or worrying about getting back into position and winning the ball back? It's a fine line to expect our younger players to hear parents and coaches complaining about (or is it advocating) a certain call (or lack thereof) and not do the same. How will players handle or react to a really awful call (which will happen!) in a hotly contested U17 game if they can't keep it together over inexperienced officiating at a lower level/age? Same question could be posed to the parents?

I guess my perspective (which has dramatically shifted from my playing days) is that there is too much focus on quality of refereeing by parents/players/coaches. Even healthy criticism (in my experience) leads to a general, overarching perception that referees influence games much more than they do. As much as I want (and demand) perfection at games from referees, I do not let my players (and/or parents) tell me a referee cost us the game. Even if it's somehow true that a call/no-call "resulted" in a goal, it's just too easy to let myself/players off the hook. A ref will never have a perfect game -- If I want I can always find a way that my team was slighted (every game). It's just not helping my team/players get better. If my parents/players spend 1/10th of the time they spend complaining about refs focusing on the mistakes they/their child made and how those mistakes (and their teammates' mistakes) impacted the game, we probably wouldn't need referees or coaches because they'd be such quality players.

I know I digressed, but to me it all comes back to educating our parents and players better about the game, including the unpredictability of the quality of officiating and the mental toughness required to persevere through adversity (eg, bad calls) as a team.

[pOkLE]

Feb 27, 2013 8:02:55 GMT -6 copakid14 said:

Good info happyjack. Attempting to actually provide legitimate information relevant to the question has become rare on this board. Instead we like to immediately jump to conclusions that because someone is a parent of a child and has an issue with the system, they must have no clue what they are talking about and must go become a referee to know what it's like. If an accountant screws up my taxes because they don't understand the tax law I shouldn't have to become a CPA to do it myself. This same attitude is one reason clubs lose members because no one wants to hear a complaint of a parent who surely knows nothing about soccer. This subject comes up regularly in the comp committee meetings and money is certainly a factor. I listened to Bill Rushing explain why it will be difficult to host the u12 state cup in Hammond because the better referees will be reluctant to travel for these level games and the money they make from them. I can also tell you that I have seen first hand many times where the referee crews are much more "inexperienced" for LCSL games in a neutral location between two teams not from the club hosting the match. There is very much a mentality that younger age girls soccer is not competitive and many referees call fouls that are not fouls because a girl falls down. It is naturally engrained in our culture and society to protect young children so that's understandable. The truth of the matter is that as youth sports continues to become more specialized at an earlier age, the competitiveness and level of play for the younger players will continue to increase. The training opportunities that happy jack mentions are good ways to increase the quality of the officials, but I think it should mandatory if you are to work league games to attend a certain amount of "continuing education" like this.
Finally, I will say I was at the game offtherecord refers to in Lafayette this past weekend and in fact coached in it. It was an absolute joke and became comical on the sideline to witness the referee who did not know the signal for offside or a goal kick. It was also funny to watch the AR's and center try to determine what was a corner as every LCSL game we play in Lafayette never has corner flags. Those of us that are supposedly "in the know" need to quit dismissing things so quickly and jumping to conclusions. We are the ones that can help make a difference within our clubs.

I think a fair amount of people attempted to provide reasonable answers to the questions posed. If part of the solution is involvement, I'm not sure that's jumping to conclusions when suggested.

Maybe there's a better example than CPA. I don't think youth soccer officials and CPAs are comparable. One requires years of schooling (a professional degree), rigorous testing, and almost all CPAs are making a living based solely on their knowledge of tax law. Refereeing requires little schooling, little testing (esp at the level we are talking about), and is a side job for most if not all LA referees). If CPA messes up, you probably have a malpractice claim. If a referee messes up ... wait, they will mess up every game! Tax law=super complex; soccer=though nuanced, not near as complex. Again, maybe there is a better example.

Parents can complain all they want but part of the solution (IMO) (and my "making a difference") is parents becoming better educated, not just the referees. This educations isn't necessarily limited to the the Laws of the Game, but on the realities of the game (eg, unpredictability in the quality of officiating). As I said in a message to offtherecord, there's one thing that I know will happen each game: the referee that doesn't know X rule will be on my game and he/she will be awful. Based on this thread and my experiences with fellow coaches, where we go from there, is all a matter of perspective.

Also, I can assure you that the refs you get for our neutral site games are the exact same refs our home teams see (not that that will make you feel any better). I can't speak for other locations.

[time2retire]

This really comes down to a few factors:

1) The referee: has to have the desire to learn and get better
2) The referee association: has to have funds/resources for mentorship
3) The referee assignor: has to know his/her referee capabilities
4) The home club: has to support referee programs
5) The SRC: has to push mentorship initiatives (from what I gather, they have)
6) The mentor: has to pass on correct interpretations, be up to date with position papers, memos, and a host of other things

Bigger picture: the resources are out there but are seldom used or sought after. Mentorship is the backbone to a successful referee, there is no denying this. But there are very few young referees who may have the means to travel to mentorship events, or who even know that they can referee outside of their home town. Also, most mentors don't work for free, and there probably isn't a lot of funds floating around club or referee coffers. Those who know that their knowledge is passed down in the best interest of the game, and "donate" their time to training and development...at the local level...thank you, you get it.

To the original poster: if LCSL charged an extra say...$25 per game for a mandatory referee mentor at each game...would you pay that extra fee?

[time2retire]

pOkLE good point about parent education (especially at U11). Some are willing to listen, others have that education fall upon deaf ears. I recently worked an ODP Friendlies event in Virginia. Over three days I may have heard two small incorrect interpretations of Law that were quickly corrected by other knowledgeable parents. I don't expect rec or LCSL parents to have that same amount of knowledge. They most certainly can, but likely don't.

Anyways, USSF has a publication out named Laws of the Game Made Easy that is designed for the youngest referees and spectators who don't have referee training.

[cardsinhand]

I'm sorry but all of Lafayette's State level referees were in New Orleans this past weekend for the State High School Finals. I tried to tell the league that, but they still insisted on scheduling matches here.

If it makes people feel better, there will be at least 10 matches at the U11-12 level in the Hub City Tournament with state referees on them! :-)

Oh and by the way, LSA Men's Open state cup is the weekend of 3/9-10, so there is a safe bet you will not get state referees that weekend too. Hmmm men's open match with free maintainance assessment or U11 Girls LCSL match; well I'll choose.......

Sorry but it is a numbers game. The numbers say U11 means first year in the league. Well sorry but many times that translates to first year referee. I don't like it any more than you do. But because everyone wants to play LCSL "Competative" soccer that means that we no longer have a good training program in our rec program. Ever since we transitioned to the LCSL throug the D1 League, our number of games have fallen off so far in rec that there are maybe 4 or 5 matches we even use ARs on. Now image that "new" referee with a whistle and no other help on the match? Would that be better training? I think not. And before you say those games don't mean anything, you better go sit and watch one, or referee one for that matter.

Now seriously, to answer your question, the requirements to work LCSL matches as a referee are that you must be a grade 8 referee or higher and registered for the current year with USSF. The Grade 8 course is a 16 hour training course. It has a 100 question exam that requires a score of 75 to pass and I'm hoping they can get more than 3 out of 4 decisions correct on the field. That is the only "requirement". I would have loved for you to have had more experienced referees but those that were available were working the adult amateur games. If the "new" referee would not have worked the match, then no one else would have. Then you have to ask yourself, is your match "official" and will it count, or did you just waste a 3 hour drive to Lafayette that should have been a 5 hour drive to Houma?

I do what I can to get the games covered. I continuously tell LSA there are too many games to cover when other events are going on.  In addition to the offer to take the referee course, the assignor course will be offered this summer at the end of July. No experience necessary to attend.

[dulac]

Feb 27, 2013 14:57:04 GMT -6 time2retire said:

 Also, most mentors don't work for free, and there probably isn't a lot of funds floating around club or referee coffers. Those who know that their knowledge is passed down in the best interest of the game, and "donate" their time to training and development...at the local level...thank you, you get it.

Whoa, I must have missed the memo on Mentor fees.  I've been Mentoring refs for years and never heard any of my fellow mentors mention they are getting paid.  Still love it though.  I don't think my Mentors would have ever expected to get paid for mentoring me either.  It's for the love of the game.  If anyone in Baton Rouge is interested in having a Mentor, please IM me.  I am the Chair for SRABR's Mentor program.

[happyjack]

Feb 27, 2013 9:49:19 GMT -6 pOkLE said:

. A ref will never have a perfect game --.

Makes note to referee one of pokles games in the Amatuer men's open to prove him wrong

[time2retire]

Feb 27, 2013 18:06:50 GMT -6 dulac said:

Feb 27, 2013 14:57:04 GMT -6 time2retire said:

 Also, most mentors don't work for free, and there probably isn't a lot of funds floating around club or referee coffers. Those who know that their knowledge is passed down in the best interest of the game, and "donate" their time to training and development...at the local level...thank you, you get it.

Whoa, I must have missed the memo on Mentor fees.  I've been Mentoring refs for years and never heard any of my fellow mentors mention they are getting paid.  Still love it though.  I don't think my Mentors would have ever expected to get paid for mentoring me either.  It's for the love of the game.  If anyone in Baton Rouge is interested in having a Mentor, please IM me.  I am the Chair for SRABR's Mentor program.

Then I absolutely applaud you and your guys for caring about the game and the development of referees. That's the way it should be. Perhaps I am blessed to assign/mentor for a club (out-of-state) that pays experienced referees to roam a 4 field complex and mentor its younger referees. I wasn't sure about any other clubs, especially those in Louisiana, that pay for any kind of mentorship. Thank you dulac and fellow guys in BR for making a difference.