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Post by offtherecord on Feb 26, 2013 8:50:45 GMT -6
Is there a minimum qualification/experience requirement for a referee to be assigned to LCSL games? At the U11 girls level, (Comp Red) it seems we get a mixed bag of referees. Some do not even know the basic rules.
Example: Game played this past Sunday in Lafayette…player throw-in does not cross line…AR signals the throw-in for the other team…parents yell it didn’t cross line…center ref asks AR if it crossed and she said “no”…center ref thankfully makes the right call. This should not happen in LCSL games.
While this is a simple example, it is only one of MANY, some of which have a direct impact on the score or player safety. I understand that assignors can only assign games with the referees who are “available” but shouldn’t a new or inexperienced referee not have the option at the competitive level?! Are referee assignors given a standard or does it vary by location? What will it take for the more experienced officials to want to be on the younger games? More money? I’m willing to pay! These young players devote hours and hours of time to prepare for these games and they deserve better.
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Post by premier on Feb 26, 2013 9:12:11 GMT -6
It's a sad trend for the less experienced referees to be put on the younger age groups given the "less competitiveness and meaning of the game" a.k.a, younger level games tend to be grouped as just developmental games of not much importance but for both the referee and player to develop their skills and not be so concerned with the score. Hence the reason for putting younger/less experienced referees on these games. That and I'm pretty sure you'd rather that young chap who's still learning to be on a u11 game than say a u16 game where the players would retaliate at the referee and probably cause he/she to mess up more(lose confidence in self, and probably not want to referee anymore).
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Post by offtherecord on Feb 26, 2013 9:16:49 GMT -6
I would rather an inexperienced referee (no matter what the age) gain their experience in Recreational level games. LCSL U11 is considered competitive, we pay the competitive price to play and we put in the time. If it was only about "developing" we would not have standings and they would not be used for placement in the state cup brackets. I do wish the mindset would change.
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Post by Steven Gerrard on Feb 26, 2013 9:48:45 GMT -6
My educated guess is that more experienced refs are probably not available to AR the U11 LCSL game. They are probably doing older games at that same time slot. As long as you have a good experienced center ref you should not have many problems. Yes, the younger AR may miss a call or two, but that is just part of the game. Most associations don't have enough experienced refs so that you can leave them as ARs on a U11 game and still have your older games covered.
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Post by offtherecord on Feb 26, 2013 10:10:55 GMT -6
Thanks for the input, but having experienced centers has not always been the case either unfortunately. As a soccer parent this is not my first rodeo. I really do get it. And please do not misunderstand, I am not referring to "younger" officials, I am talking about inexperienced officials. These are adults. I appreciate the comments and do hope someone is able to address a few of my initial questions as well.
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Post by laffysoccermom on Feb 26, 2013 12:04:50 GMT -6
It's always frustrating when you get a poor ref whether due to inexperience or other factors. Now that my daughter is a little older, we tend to get more experienced refs but that doesn't always translate into better.
We recently had a ref that I was told was very experienced but he got almost every call that I could see wrong. Before you think I am blaming him for a game- he had no impact on the outcome whatsoever. Also, he wasn't biased. We got our share of bad calls in our favor.
He rarely looked at his ARs for throw-in direction and when he did spent half a minute asking if they had a good angle. He called a foul on the other team that was clearly a foul we committed.
He also called a foul where the other team girl stepped on the ball and fell. The nearest part of our player to her was a foot from her. He also told our player not to do it again. Both players looked at him like he had two heads. In fact they were lining up like it was our free kick. Again no favoritism and no impact on the game just incompetent or having a really bad game.
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Post by offtherecord on Feb 26, 2013 12:46:59 GMT -6
It is frustrating Laffymom!
To clarify, my intent is not to referee bash. I would just like to know what qualifies officials to work the LCSL games. What are the benchmarks? Does LSA have a standard for all assignors to follow? I want to understand how referees who clearly are not ready or prepared to handle competitive games are assigned to them.
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Post by laffysoccermom on Feb 26, 2013 13:31:15 GMT -6
I know breathing is a requirement but beyond that not sure... Just kidding. They have to take a class but not sure about experience level required.
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Post by pOkLE on Feb 26, 2013 14:03:16 GMT -6
LCSL referees do not have to undergo any special training. There is, however, an online test they must pass to be able to work State Cup games. As most have said, referees with less ability and/or experience are often put on the younger games, due to availability or need. Most assignors try to put together the best crew possible for each game. As you are aware, it's simply not possible. Best chance to improve the quality of refereeing in your games is to become a referee. Far too many of our most astute eyes (and loudest mouths) are hiding amongst the peanut gallery. It's a numbers game, plain and simple: there are more games than quality referees available. In the end, you'd rather play than not (that's the other option), so start training your kids right now: referees do not matter...they will make bad calls (for & against you)...you as a player influence outcome of games...not referees.
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Post by offtherecord on Feb 26, 2013 14:28:41 GMT -6
I was just waiting for someone to tell me to become a referee. Congratulations, you won the prize. I'm sorry but that does not answer my questions. I want to know if officials have to meet certain requirements other than passing the referee test. Do they have to pass a certain number of assessments? Do they have to work X number of "friendly" games, Rec games, etc. We train for hours and travel for hours (sometimes across the state) to play a LEAGUE game that counts for something! This should not be the time for referees to get experience. They should be prepared and the fact that there are not enough of them isn't an excuse. What is being done so they are ready? As I stated first, to not even know the basic rules is unacceptable for League games. How is this monitored?
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Post by pinetar on Feb 26, 2013 15:23:00 GMT -6
sorry to break it to you, but the numbers issue is an excuse and a valid one at that. there are simply not enough experienced referees to cover all the matches. the ranks are spread thin. i quit refereeing at age 16 as a direct result of verbal abuse i received from a parent after a match. fast forward 24 years to a point where i had spent 3 or 4 years as a coach/parent yelling and screaming about the referees. someone invited me to be part of the solution, and I took them up on it. it really is a simple choice, observe the problem and comment on it (or scream about it) until the end of days or take some step to be part of the solution.
the simple answer to your question is that there are no requirements beyond passing the test. most assignors try to account for the level of the match when assigning crews, but they do what they have to in order to cover all matches.
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Post by smee on Feb 26, 2013 15:31:47 GMT -6
Is there a minimum qualification/experience requirement for a referee to be assigned to LCSL games? At the U11 girls level, (Comp Red) it seems we get a mixed bag of referees. Some do not even know the basic rules.
Example: Game played this past Sunday in Lafayette…player throw-in does not cross line…AR signals the throw-in for the other team…parents yell it didn’t cross line…center ref asks AR if it crossed and she said “no”…center ref thankfully makes the right call. This should not happen in LCSL games.
OK. I'll bite. high school rules have this as the rule. it is possible that the ref has spent the last 4 months using this rule, and this could be his or her first LSA game using the Laws of the Game this year. I know I spend the first couple of weeks of each season reminding myself which code I am supposed to be using. I do appreciate it when the parents yell at me, especially when they have the best angles. It always reminds me of the fields in Birmingham, AL where the parents are kept a minimum of 5 yards back from the fields and behind a fence. BTW, if I was the center, and a young official was "yelled at" over a throw in, I would be very calmly letting the parent know that they could leave any time.
While this is a simple example, it is only one of MANY, some of which have a direct impact on the score or player safety.
no mention of referee safety? yelling at kids does not make them feel safe. see comments above about watching games from further away and behind fences. These young players devote hours and hours of time to prepare for these games and they deserve better. often the referees prepare also. DO they deserve better parents to be watching games?
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Post by offtherecord on Feb 26, 2013 15:33:50 GMT -6
Has there ever been an abundance of officials? This has been the excuse for years upon years. Something else has to be done to make sure officials are prepared. Why are there no requirements beyond passing the test? Anyone can study and pass a test, but it takes practice to make quick decisions in game situations, etc. Why are there not a minimum number of game requirements before officials are placed in games that "count"?
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Post by offtherecord on Feb 26, 2013 15:45:01 GMT -6
Is there a minimum qualification/experience requirement for a referee to be assigned to LCSL games? At the U11 girls level, (Comp Red) it seems we get a mixed bag of referees. Some do not even know the basic rules.
Example: Game played this past Sunday in Lafayette…player throw-in does not cross line…AR signals the throw-in for the other team…parents yell it didn’t cross line…center ref asks AR if it crossed and she said “no”…center ref thankfully makes the right call. This should not happen in LCSL games.
OK. I'll bite. high school rules have this as the rule. it is possible that the ref has spent the last 4 months using this rule, and this could be his or her first LSA game using the Laws of the Game this year. I know I spend the first couple of weeks of each season reminding myself which code I am supposed to be using. I do appreciate it when the parents yell at me, especially when they have the best angles. It always reminds me of the fields in Birmingham, AL where the parents are kept a minimum of 5 yards back from the fields and behind a fence. BTW, if I was the center, and a young official was "yelled at" over a throw in, I would be very calmly letting the parent know that they could leave any time.
While this is a simple example, it is only one of MANY, some of which have a direct impact on the score or player safety.
no mention of referee safety? yelling at kids does not make them feel safe. see comments above about watching games from further away and behind fences. These young players devote hours and hours of time to prepare for these games and they deserve better. often the referees prepare also. DO they deserve better parents to be watching games? Ok, hold on there. No one was yelling at kids. The referee in my example was an adult and yell was the wrong word probably. The parents were stating the ball did not go "in". Sorry, making an edit as I misread the last statement. If the referees are spending that much time preparing, then they are not the ones I'm talking about.
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Post by Steven Gerrard on Feb 26, 2013 16:29:04 GMT -6
I was just waiting for someone to tell me to become a referee. Congratulations, you won the prize. I'm sorry but that does not answer my questions. I want to know if officials have to meet certain requirements other than passing the referee test. Do they have to pass a certain number of assessments? Do they have to work X number of "friendly" games, Rec games, etc. We train for hours and travel for hours (sometimes across the state) to play a LEAGUE game that counts for something! This should not be the time for referees to get experience. They should be prepared and the fact that there are not enough of them isn't an excuse. What is being done so they are ready? As I stated first, to not even know the basic rules is unacceptable for League games. How is this monitored? The fact that there are not enough qualifed refs is not an excuse, but rather a fact of life. Yes, it has been going on this way for years. The same cycle. We sign up refs, and then they drop out do to being yelled at by parents and/or coaches. Trying to get enough refs to cover games is a problem all over the state, and probably all over the country. If you don't want to ref, that is fine. But, don't complain when others tell you that we have a shortage of refs and say that is no excuse.
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Post by offtherecord on Feb 26, 2013 16:40:12 GMT -6
I feel like I'm banging my head against a wall and no one is hearing my questions. I'm not bashing referees. There are some great ones out there. I know that. There are not enough of them. I know that too. But when I see an official who is struggling, really struggling in a game with basic calls it makes me question why they are there. Why they are not prepared! You can't tell me there are not enough friendly games, rec games, practices, etc going on around the state where they can receive adequate training BEFORE being assigned to LCSL games.
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Post by pinetar on Feb 26, 2013 17:01:55 GMT -6
Has there ever been an abundance of officials? This has been the excuse for years upon years. Something else has to be done to make sure officials are prepared. Why are there no requirements beyond passing the test? Anyone can study and pass a test, but it takes practice to make quick decisions in game situations, etc. Why are there not a minimum number of game requirements before officials are placed in games that "count"? No, there has never been an abundance of referees. Has there ever been a time when parents/fans/coaches/players did not complain about the quality of referees? I'll answer that one for you - "No." Of course, the issue of not enough referees could be solved if more people signed up (or even encouraged their children to sign up) and fewer young referees gave it up. There is certainly nowhere else that my 13 year old can go and earn $10/hour. But the fact is that most of the youth referees give it up within a couple of years. The most common reason I've heard is that they can't stand the abuse from the parents. So we can all pitch in and help on that issue. Next time one of your fellow parents looses touch with any concept of reality and perspective, quietly remind them that the kid on the sidelines is just a kid and ask them exactly what the are trying to achieve by yelling and screaming at the kid. Perhaps a gentle reminder that their energy would be better spent by trying to set a good example for the kids on the field. Then, a couple of hours after the match, when reality and reason should be pushing their way back into the forefront, maybe they can sit down and sent an email to the assignor/coach/club with some rational observations on things that they feel the kid should work to improve. Most of us actually appreciate the feedback, positive or negative, so long as it is given in the proper manner. I'm not sure exactly what you see as a solution. It would be great if we could have all referees with less than 3 years experience work only U10 and below recreational games. Of course, in order to do that, we would have to severely limit the number of competitive games above that level played every weekend. On general average, I think if we scheduled one competitive match per club per age group every weekend, we could probably cover the matches with the referees that have the experience you are seeking. That would probably limit each team to 2 or 3 games each season. Would that be sufficient for the fees you pay? I hate to break it to you, but there aren't any professional referees in Louisiana. Every single one of them has a job/school and most of them have families. None of the folks out there in stripes are doing it to fund their retirement. Believe it or not, for the majority, it's a labor of love. Again, the lack of an abundance of referees is not a problem that will go away any time soon. You can chose to sit back and watch or step up and try to be part of the solution.
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Post by offtherecord on Feb 26, 2013 17:08:44 GMT -6
Once again, I'm not talking about youth referees! I'm talking about LCSL games. Competitive games! I can't remember the last time I saw a young official on an LCSL game. All of the referees I've seen who were the least prepared are adults.
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Post by pinetar on Feb 26, 2013 17:12:23 GMT -6
now that i think about it, I don't think we could cover one game per weekend per age group with the experience offtherecord is talking about. it would probably be limited 2 games per team per season at most.
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Post by pinetar on Feb 26, 2013 17:17:29 GMT -6
Once again, I'm not talking about youth referees! I'm talking about LCSL games. Competitive games! I can't remember the last time I saw a young official on an LCSL game. All of the referees I've seen who were the least prepared are adults. regardless of the age, there simply aren't enough around to limit the inexperienced ones to lower level games. and if we can get and keep the young referees, they will become the experienced referees that you are looking for.
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