A real life scenario

This situation happened at regionals and prompted lots of discussion from the national and state assessors. Here is the situation.

White team up 1-0 with under two minutes to go. Red team is pressing. Red team pushes a ball into the penalty area, the keeper gathers the ball at their feet at the far right side of the penalty area and holds it at the feet. Once an attacker from red runs forward, GK gathers the ball in their hands. The GK then runs parallel to the goal line approx 8 yds off the goal line. They take 3-4 steps, throws the ball on the ground and dribbles. About center of the goal, picks it up. (No call from the AR1 or referee) The keeper continues to run to the far left side of the PA, near the corner of the PA, 18 yds from goal line. Referee now calls 6 second violation. Ball is spotted outside the 18. Coach for red going nuts at this point.

Free kick is taken from that point, no score, game ends moments afterward.

Here is the question. AR1 and referee both missed what happened. AR 2, from some 60-70 yds sees it all. Should AR2 raise his flag and call the referee over to have the ball spotted at the first infraction, 8yds from goal line, center of goal? Those at regionals cannot answer. Cajun ref, you had a similar situation recently so you hold off as well. (I know you know the answer)

I will say there was a consensus answer but there were several different view points of what should happen.

[pompey]

Yes, surely spotted at first infraction.........

[lakeview]

GK released the ball into play, and then picked it up? hmmmmm.

Can't wait to hear the answer.

[lakeview]

While we're at real life questions, how about this one:

USA v Columbia the other night. Columbia makes a sub late in the game. The man on the field walks steadily to the mid/center line. Yellow card.

What happened? Time wasting by walking off the field?? Never have seen this call.

I was delighted to see the yellow/red card for the Columbian GK. He was wasting time every opportunity. An then USA awfully inept offense could not get another chance against the forward who went into goal, even tho CR added 5 minutes.

[lakeview]

One more real life senario: Last night KC v Galaxy match. CK for KC in 70th minute. A KC player was trying to shield the keeper (Joe Cannon) and another Galaxy player got between them.

The KC player had his hands high, as do most players in the box. The referee got in the face of the KC player and repeatly yelled "Put your hands down." He would not allow the CK until the KC player had his hands at his side.

Haven't seen this one before. Any comments?

[coachray40]

futbolislife said:

This situation happened at regionals and prompted lots of discussion from the national and state assessors. Here is the situation.

White team up 1-0 with under two minutes to go. Red team is pressing. Red team pushes a ball into the penalty area, the keeper gathers the ball at their feet at the far right side of the penalty area and holds it at the feet. Once an attacker from red runs forward, GK gathers the ball in their hands. The GK then runs parallel to the goal line approx 8 yds off the goal line. They take 3-4 steps, throws the ball on the ground and dribbles. About center of the goal, picks it up. (No call from the AR1 or referee) The keeper continues to run to the far left side of the PA, near the corner of the PA, 18 yds from goal line. Referee now calls 6 second violation. Ball is spotted outside the 18. Coach for red going nuts at this point.

Free kick is taken from that point, no score, game ends moments afterward.

Here is the question. AR1 and referee both missed what happened. AR 2, from some 60-70 yds sees it all. Should AR2 raise his flag and call the referee over to have the ball spotted at the first infraction, 8yds from goal line, center of goal? Those at regionals cannot answer. Cajun ref, you had a similar situation recently so you hold off as well. (I know you know the answer)

I will say there was a consensus answer but there were several different view points of what should happen.

I'll give it a shot--Yes the AR should signal the Referee and let him her know what happened and then yes, the ball should be spotted at the point of the first infraction--8 yds out, center of goal for an indirect free kick.

The call that was made is incorrect as well if the ball was spotted outside the penalty area--should have been placed on the spot the keeper was standing at the 6 second call (of course if this was inside the goal area box then the ball would be moved to the nearest point on the goal area box for an indirect free kick.

Ok --am I right?

[coachray40]

lakeview said:

While we're at real life questions, how about this one:

USA v Columbia the other night. Columbia makes a sub late in the game. The man on the field walks steadily to the mid/center line. Yellow card.

What happened? Time wasting by walking off the field?? Never have seen this call.

I was delighted to see the yellow/red card for the Columbian GK. He was wasting time every opportunity. An then USA awfully inept offense could not get another chance against the forward who went into goal, even tho CR added 5 minutes.

Yes -the call is for time wasting (unsporting conduct i believe is the official call for the infraction.) I have noticed during a lot of MLS games lately--especially when late substitutions are being made by the team ahead in the score-- that the center official is following along with the players being substituted for and encouraging them to get off the field quickly. Professional teams now seem to be doing what a some of us do at the free substitution level of play when we are ahead late in a game--make continual substitutions to use up time and take away the opposite teams momentum. Seems easier in the youth game, as subs are commonplace. Anyway, the trend of teams using thier 3 subs to eat up time seems to have been caught on to by the officials, so I'll bet the usage of a yellow card will be in the upswing if players dont make an effort to get off the field in a timely manner.

[coachray40]

lakeview said:

One more real life senario: Last night KC v Galaxy match. CK for KC in 70th minute. A KC player was trying to shield the keeper (Joe Cannon) and another Galaxy player got between them.

The KC player had his hands high, as do most players in the box. The referee got in the face of the KC player and repeatly yelled "Put your hands down." He would not allow the CK until the KC player had his hands at his side.

Haven't seen this one before. Any comments?

My take on this one is that the official deemed that the player with his hands up would be trying to intentionally interfere with the GK on the CK, so he was made to put them down. I believe it was Lionel Messi that recently pulled a "Hand of God" routine in a game where he intentionally punched a ball into the goal, and it wasnt caught by the officials until after the match. A lot of debate and controversy followed that match, so perhaps another hot button item for the officals to try and deter.

Lets face it--teams, coaches and players are always trying to gain an edge in the game, and the referees are always going to have to adapt to the changes they encounter while that happens. Seems like this is a new issue that the officials are cracking down on.

On the original scenario, I wont give the answer yet but let me ask this as food for thought on the original. Lets say the AR2 was the only referee who saw the GK take down a player and the result would be a penalty; would you ask the AR to make that call from 70 yds away? I am not leading anyone in any direction but this is one of the questions the national assessors were asking as well.

Does the AR, in making the call from 70 yds away, take authority from the referee?

[lakeview]

The AR is not "making" the call. Formerly called a "linesman", but now properly called an assistant REFEREE, if the AR sees a foul, the proper indication should be made. The CR will then discuss with the AR, and the CR will make the call.

In many games, however, the CR tells the AR's not to make a call in the PA, so it won't make the CR look bad.

Technically, you are correct. The AR is not "making" the call but providing information for the referee to use or not. But the perception to every player, spectator and coach is he "made" the call.

So lets continue.....As I asked, does he raise the flag in our scenario? If we say yes, then what are the limitations? Would he signal every foul regardless of where it occurs on the field? Is there a line that he should not cross? Does he damage the credibility of the referee if he makes this particular call in the 5th minute or the 88th minute? What are the imnpacts to the game by raising the flag or keeping it down? Does it matter?

[cajunsoccerguy]

The "by the book answer" is that AR2 should raise the flag, and inform the CR.
It is obiviously a moment of truth in the game for the referee crew. There are many things to consider here too: AR2s distance from the play, the CRs distance and angle, AR2s involvement in the game up to this point (is he credible), the perscetion of the CR and AR1s credibility, and the CRs pregame. Not knowing the answers to all these questions makes it an even tougher decision.
In my opinion, however, I say no, do not raise the flag. It ruins all the credibility of the CR and AR1. Also, AR2 is at least 50 yards away, and it makes him look like he is trying to take over the game.

(This is quite possibly the most difficult question I have ever answered, without seeing the situation develop.)

[lakeview]

Again, I say raise the flag.

Remember, this happened at Regionals, where "the best of the best" referees in the 12 regions were hand selected.

If I were CR, after checking with my AR2, I would also discuss with my AR1 and see if she could remember the GK picking up the ball a second time. The AR1 would probably concur.

2 minutes left in the game. Red is pressing, and should not be denied when the White GK is trying to stall and then boot to midfield.

OK, what did the assessor say who was watching this crew? Did he say that referees should keep obvious infractions to themselves, and don't ever admit a mistake was made? Sort of like doctors covering for each other?

Okay, here is the "consensus" answer. Of the 6 national assessors, one said, keep it down. His rationale, you wouldn't want that far AR making a judgment decision on a PK call, why would you want him involved in a less serious infraction. Assessor #2, keep the flag down but if you have beeper flags, beep the referee. The other 4 said, he has to raise the flag. This was a critical moment in the match. The "moment of truth" as stated earlier by cajunsoccerguy. It was more important to "get it right". Would this destroy the CR credibility? At this point, based on what was happening, it was already destroyed. He missed a critical decision. (FYI, the state assessors were about a 50-50 split on what should be done)

Let's also think about the duties of the 4th official (not one assigned to this match). The 4th is empowered to provide information on incidents not seen by the referee. If this is true, why not the far side AR? What referees need to remember here is also, the AR should get involved in issues that are issues of fact, not opinion. I would be hesitant to raise the flag for a pure judgment call, a poor tackle, maybe incidental handling. But this was a factual incident. The GK picked up the ball, controlled it, released it into play. A fact, not an opinion. Raise the flag, get it right. (interesting fact is the 4th official in a recent PDL match had a similar situation that they had to make the referee aware of a decision that the referee nor AR1 could see. They had it right and it pulled the ball out of the net)

What came out later was the CR says he was shielded and didn't see it. AR1, started upfield when the GK picked up the ball and says he didn't see it. The only person who saw it was AR2.

And you asked what did the assessor say? Well because of all the rescheduling, somehow an assessor was not officially assigned to the match. I was there watching waiting for the next match. But the consensus answer on post game feedback was, if an assessor was there, the CR and AR1 would've failed the assessment. If it was discovered in the post game feedback session that AR2 saw it, he/she would've failed as well.

The biggest message was "get it right". If you need to hold up the match for a minute, perhaps not desirable, but more important is to make sure that justice is properly dispensed.

The other part, PRE-GAME. This type incident was obviously not covered and it showed. Too often, referees have 2 minute pre-games which usually sound like "do what you normally do". At regionals, the referees will typically have 20-30 minute pre-games. Experience will dictate what items are discussed. I have no doubt that this referee crew will include this type incident in future pre-games.

[lakeview]

Thanks, I do like the distinction between a fact, and an opinion/judgement call from 70 yards away.

I also am in favor of the "get it right" mentality.

I like these real life senarios. What was the PDL incident?

The PDL incident....I wasn't there but this is what I understand from the match assessor.

Attacking team heads to goal, player buries the ball in back of the net. Ar and CR both see a good goal. The 4th sees what really happened. The attacker slaps the ball from the side of their body to their feet to strike the shot. The 4th makes the CR aware of the handling and the goal disallowed. Apparently controversial but the match assessor says it was correct.

This is exactly what the Federation and FIFA want the 4th to do.