dulac
All-District
Posts: 204
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Post by dulac on Jan 11, 2010 22:33:34 GMT -6
There has been a marked increase in player dissent. I don't know what the catalyst is, but it's to the point of absurdity. I reffed a game where the players were telling their coach to "shut-up". The coach did nothing. I was in disbelief. While I have a reputation among the players knowing I don't allow such behavior, when I work a line for a fellow ref, I am in awe at how they allow these players to talk to them and curse...with nothing being done. I will venture to pose that these refs can bear some of the responsibility in allowing the dissent to escalate to this level. It is not only rampant in Baton Rouge where I ref. I have been to tournaments in other cities where I witness the same unacceptable behavior. I would like to challenge all my fellow referees to start clamping down on this unacceptable behavior. What you do in your game trickles down to the following game, a game I may be reffing. I not only have to deal with my game, I have to "correct" what you let go in yours. Please, have some balls and do your job.
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Post by cajunsoccerguy on Jan 12, 2010 9:43:18 GMT -6
Thank you for having the guts to post this. I agree 100%. It seems to have gotten MUCH worse over the last few years too. I would even go one step further and challenge coaches AND parents to not only teaach respect, but DEMAND it as well.
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Post by furriner on Jan 12, 2010 10:35:07 GMT -6
not being as old as "Dulac" I cannot remember a time when dissent was not an issue. ;-}
I think one of the biggest problems started a couple of years back when Mr. Rooney was called for a blatant foul. He got in the refs face and dropped the "f bomb" 17 times in quick succession. no card, nothing by the FA. Thankfully, FIFA pulled the plug on him being a representative at a youth tournament shortly thereafter.
I have been accused of being both too hard and too soft. as an explanation, as told to me by another ref: if you can hit your thumb with a hammer and say , "oh gosh", you are a better person than me, so a "spur of the moment", just missed a sitter of a goal I have some leeway. But, and this is a big but, if it is personal (directed at another player of official), then the player or coach (and sadly this is increasing a lot) will be told, in no uncertain terms, that this behavior will not continue.
Now, for the original post, that some players tell their coaches to "shut up", have you heard half of the nonsense that some coaches talk? ;-}
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Post by time2retire on Jan 12, 2010 16:09:36 GMT -6
Let the coaches and players sort their team issues out. Short of dropping the f-bomb at his coach (or vice versa), I'll allow a great deal of talk between a coach and a player. If the coach is not satisfied, he can always either pull the player or simply kick him off the team. On the flip side of the coin, when other referees call the game by the strict black and white letter of the rules, we wouldn't have a game
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dulac
All-District
Posts: 204
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Post by dulac on Jan 12, 2010 19:14:37 GMT -6
Let the coaches and players sort their team issues out. Short of dropping the f-bomb at his coach (or vice versa), I'll allow a great deal of talk between a coach and a player. If the coach is not satisfied, he can always either pull the player or simply kick him off the team. On the flip side of the coin, when other referees call the game by the strict black and white letter of the rules, we wouldn't have a game time2retire, you are missing the point. The point is...if players tell their coaches to shut-up, then they don't respect him/her. If they don't respect their coach, then they most likely won't respect the ref. Players continually complain the officials don't "respect" them. If you want respect, you have to earn it. Screaming profanity and yelling at your coach or me won't get you the respect you want. Simply put, there is no excuse for it and it should not be tolerated.
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Post by furriner on Jan 13, 2010 10:27:57 GMT -6
not only that, but I have been told told by some wise and venerable instructors and assessors that when a team is fighting among themselves, it only takes one call to unite an angry mob against one person. Any guesses who that one person can become?
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Post by L4S on Jan 13, 2010 14:38:42 GMT -6
A major part of the problem is a generational thing. Not to sound too old, but there is a great sense of entitlement with our youth. This spills over into the game. Dulac, do you see more of this in high school than you do calling premier or other games?
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dulac
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Posts: 204
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Post by dulac on Jan 13, 2010 16:00:50 GMT -6
[/quote]Dulac, do you see more of this in high school than you do calling premier or other games?[/quote]
It's at all youth levels I'd have to say. I do more high school games than USSF youth games so I notice it more during high school but it doesn't seem to have been a gradual increase. It seems to have exploded of late. But you are right...it's the age of entitlement. Parents today don't teach their children social skills. They teach them they can do no wrong and even adults don't deserve respect if they (the child) feels he/she has been "cheated". So sad.
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Post by happyjack on Jan 13, 2010 19:50:55 GMT -6
dissent is only an issue if you allow it to be, much like any other offense to the game. deal with it the first time, and generally you won't have to deal with it again. You don't have to card the first time, but you can make a point of stopping it with a stern word and gesture. let the first couple go, and it is hard to reign back in. then, you'll see officials try to use cards and get some control back, but the cards at that point have no effect.
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dulac
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Post by dulac on Jan 13, 2010 23:06:29 GMT -6
I guess the true reason for this post is aimed at those refs who DON'T take care of it. Happyjack, we all know you know how and do take care of it. I know how and take care of it. It's just that if more refs took care of it, then it wouldn't get to the point it has gotten to. But I guess all who post here are just preaching to the choir, right?
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Post by soccermom11 on Jan 15, 2010 16:05:20 GMT -6
I agree liveforsoccer. I teach middle school and I'm very scared for our future.
As a parent, I have always told my children that they can think in their mind anything they want while on the field about the ref, the coach or another player. BUt......if it comes out of their mouth, I would personally pull their behind off the field.
We played a game that when a player got a yellow card he went behind the ref and began bowing to the ref. The ref gave him another yellow card and this player left the field. When he got behind the goal he began to raise his hands to the crowd, like he wanted them to cheer for him.
After the game, I told my son if he ever did anything like this, I would meet him on the field and beat his ass in front of the crowd. Of course, we have taught our children much better respect then this. I know neither my son or daughter would ever do this.
But.. I do not children who wouldn't think twice about speaking to an adult this way. What a shame..
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ref05
Bench Warmer
Posts: 11
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Post by ref05 on Jan 17, 2010 20:33:31 GMT -6
Wow.
If a player yells at his coach to "shut up", it's been my experience that I usually feel the same way. I probably would encourage the player to ignore him and just play soccer. Usually that helps.
I do see a strong correlation on team with screaming coaches (or ones that pick at every call against them) and dissent from players. So I do not see where if a player tells his coach to shut up where that translates into a problem for me (it may actually help me).
Of course, if he drops an "F" bomb to him in a public manner, he'll have to tune into this website to find out who wins.
Dissent is subjective to a point, but separating disagreement from dissent is very important. Games can go south if a referee incorrectly is intolerant of disagreement just the same as if he/she ignores it. Happyjack has it right.
Last year I gave out 3 Red cards for Abusive Language in 124 games I centered. On two of them I got the finger after the ejection (I guess life has it's little "bonus"). In my mind, it just confirmed I did the right thing. Not really a rampant problem in my mind - just something that rises up with the wrong type of player & just a fact of too much "adrenaline" in some.
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dulac
All-District
Posts: 204
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Post by dulac on Jan 17, 2010 23:42:25 GMT -6
Wow. If a player yells at his coach to "shut up", it's been my experience that I usually feel the same way. I probably would encourage the player to ignore him and just play soccer. Usually that helps. I do see a strong correlation on team with screaming coaches (or ones that pick at every call against them) and dissent from players. So I do not see where if a player tells his coach to shut up where that translates into a problem for me (it may actually help me). Of course, if he drops an "F" bomb to him in a public manner, he'll have to tune into this website to find out who wins. Dissent is subjective to a point, but separating disagreement from dissent is very important. Games can go south if a referee incorrectly is intolerant of disagreement just the same as if he/she ignores it. Happyjack has it right. Last year I gave out 3 Red cards for Abusive Language in 124 games I centered. On two of them I got the finger after the ejection (I guess life has it's little "bonus"). In my mind, it just confirmed I did the right thing. Not really a rampant problem in my mind - just something that rises up with the wrong type of player & just a fact of too much "adrenaline" in some. It's funny how you can remember your red cards in 124 games. But, you still are not getting the intent of the post. It's not that the player told his coach to shut up (if I were the coach, I would have dragged the kid off the field by his ear, because the coach was right). It's the fact that these players don't RESPECT ANYONE.
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Post by sonics3 on Jan 18, 2010 12:29:28 GMT -6
It starts with the coach through his/her actions. As a youth coach and a high school coach I do not allow profanity at practice or during matches. When it "slips" the player pays for it. It is sad to say, but for many players the coach has more influence over the players actions than parents do. As a ref, I try to keep my cards in my pocket. However, at the high school level I think the refs should use there cards early to keep control of the match. Not just for the language, to discourage the cheap fouls. It is better to let them play, not to blow the whistle for every little bump, but a stern talking too to a player who slides in studs up does nothing. Showing the card early will let the players know that the ref will not tolerate any bs. Just play the game.
I questioned a ref's call in the first few minutes of a high school game we played in New Orleans, he let me know and everyone in the stadium know who was in charge of the game. At first, I was upset off.....that game was one of the cleanest, better called games I have been a part of. Coaches, players, can get out of hand quickly, the ref taking charge from the first whistle can squash most of it.
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ref05
Bench Warmer
Posts: 11
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Post by ref05 on Jan 18, 2010 22:49:47 GMT -6
[/quote] It's funny how you can remember your red cards in 124 games. But, you still are not getting the intent of the post. It's not that the player told his coach to shut up (if I were the coach, I would have dragged the kid off the field by his ear, because the coach was right). It's the fact that these players don't RESPECT ANYONE. [/quote]
Referees keep record, dulac, and red cards require reports. So it is pretty easy to keep track of them.
I get your intent. But I disagree - the majority of players I find do respect their coaches and the referee, until they are shown disrespect. I run into coaches that need to be told to shut up as players will mirror their coaches style when it comes to these exchanges. A coach would be setting a good example and get more respect out of their players (and the ref) if they just kept their corrections, comment, etc. a bit more even keel. Also, to a player who is being hounded by his coach, telling a coach to shut up is better than him taking it out on another player with a hard foul or telling the ref to go F-off & leaving his team down a man.
If your seeing a team that is just horrible at respect, it usually stems from a coaches or spectators examples of playing the blame game, or maybe a prior coach who showed them disregard. I wouldn't rest the blame on those "disrespectful players", it's just a matter of how they are dealt with. All else equal, if they are treated with respect, you'll find you'll see that in return. If you drag a 16 year old off by the ear like a 9 year old for getting upset, the results you will get in the respect department will probably be low.
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Post by cajunsoccerguy on Jan 19, 2010 0:05:54 GMT -6
I have a very bad feeling ALOT of people are missing the point here, and it is truely a sad reflection of our society.
Do you think that maybe if the kid was drug off by his/her ear at age 9 that it would be at least less of a problem at age 16? I know my parents and many more did this at age 9 and we were never disrespectful again, even if it wasn't warranted. Sometimes you have to respect a title/position, even if you don't respect the person. Learned that one in the MARINE CORPS.
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Post by happyjack on Jan 19, 2010 22:17:00 GMT -6
124 middles, 3 red cards...impressive
rumor has it that i gave 124 red cards in my 3 middles...but thats clearly an exaggeration
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dulac
All-District
Posts: 204
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Post by dulac on Jan 20, 2010 23:12:46 GMT -6
Two red carded players in a recent game for abusive language. Parent says they were driven to such behavior because of the referee. Duh, I'm sorry parent, you must have a tough time at home when you discipline your angel. The expletives must fly at you when you take the car keys away. Those kids are going to have a tough time later in life and it won't be because of those refs in that one game. Jeez, now that's sad.
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Post by lather on Jan 28, 2010 18:47:20 GMT -6
As a Referee, I try to approach a match from the position that the Game is for the players.
I try to address their complaints reasonably. I realize that out perspectives differ.
However, there are a few players that require imposition of authority.
When I coached, my players never received a caution for dissent. I trained them that the Referee was the authority, and that I would deal with their complaints if necessary.
I have found that coaches and players (in general) are more prone to true dissent than in the past.
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Post by whs7dad on Feb 14, 2010 21:44:12 GMT -6
You guys need to see East St. John play. I saw players dropping the F-bomb on the coach the refs and anyone else.
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