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Post by beauchenecoach on Feb 11, 2010 10:04:44 GMT -6
--------------- l x. ------------- l ----------------l ----------------l ----------------l ------------ GK l ---------------xl * ----------------l ----------------l
Player X. has ball and serves into box. Ball goes over GK to x and into goal where * is. Player X never touched ball but was on goal line in keepers way. AR called offside and no goal. Center official met and despite AR saying it was no goal and player X was in way of keeper and thus gained advantage by being in offside position... center allowed goal. This eliminated a team from the playoffs along with another bad call. What is your opinion? This goes along with the same rule that denied Marcus Beasley a goal vs Italy in WC 2006. Why are not all rules enforced equally? Why are AR's overturned when they have the call right and tell the Center this? This is the referee forum and I would like to know your thoughts.
Also, why are officials free from scrutiny and there is not a higher authority to judge officials when the make CRITICAL mistakes of this nature! He was listening to the opposing coach who kept saying that the ball went into the net... that is not the point. You can have an offside call when the balls goes into the net! This has been done numerous times in the history of our game. KUDOS's to the AR for making the right call. I'll refrain from what I want to say about the Center who didn't use his AR's call. Why don't we have 1 man crews from now on? ALso, what is the point of the 4th official in a playoff game? I have only once saw a 4th official call over a center to advise them on a call that was missed but seen by them.
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dulac
All-District
Posts: 204
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Post by dulac on Feb 11, 2010 10:36:19 GMT -6
First a few questions. What was the player below the keeper doing? Was he standing still? Was he dancing around? From this picture, the player below the keeper appears to not be in the way of the keeper. If this was a shot on goal, then the goal should stand. If the player below the keeper was distracting the keeper by yelling at him, pushing, or shoving, then the goal should be disallowed. If the player was above the keeper, in the keeper's view, then the goal would have been disallowed. From this picture, it would be a good goal. Officials should not be free from scrutiny. However, the scrutiny should be constructive, not obnoxious, as most critical posts are of refs on this forum. Remember, officials will make mistakes just as players make mistakes. We are all human. 4th officials are to control the benches, administer substitutions and to be a 4th set of eyes for the center. Not many officials in La have been exposed to the 4th official's responsibilities and therefore are unaware of how to be a 4th official. There are a handful of La officials who work college matches where 4th officials are frequently used; thus, these officials know what needs to be done. For the most part, I agree, 4th officials seen in High School playoffs can handle substitutions but that's about it. (I worked a game last night with a highly qualified 4th. He's a bulldog when it comes to being a 4th but he's a rare breed.)
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Post by soccerprofessor on Feb 11, 2010 10:46:59 GMT -6
Totally agree with dulac. If the player in the offside position did not move to play the ball or interfere with the GK, the goal should be allowed.
I don't understand the argument that we don't need assistant refs, just because the center ref can see the play differently from the assistant ref, happens all the time. In that instance, someone has to make the call.
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Post by misfitdingbat on Feb 11, 2010 13:17:21 GMT -6
Another reason for the 4th, which I believe is the real reason that LHSAA insists on them, is that a playoff game should NEVER be officiated by only 2 officials, which is what would happen if there was an injury to one of a 3 man crew. This is also why the other variety of football always carries 7 or 8 officials to playoff games. The 4th is a replacement if needed.
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Post by beauchenecoach on Feb 11, 2010 13:53:35 GMT -6
The ball went right over the head of the player in the offside position who was in betewwm the keeper and the ball. On the line. How could he not be part if the play. On FIFA law 11 little cartoon, this exact scrnario is up there. The ar called it so what would constitute a center override?
I too have seen a fouth official from Alexandria get a center to card a player... He did a great job that game.
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Post by Steven Gerrard on Feb 11, 2010 14:16:32 GMT -6
This is a difficult one to address without being able to actually see the play. The question is whether of not the attacker is "involved in active play." The NFHS rules state that a player is involved in active play by:
a. interfering with play or with an opponent; or b. gaining an advantage by being in that position.
So, the attacker does not have to actually touch the ball to be involved in active play. You are correct in that regard. It appears that the AR felt that the player was involved, and thus raised the flag. However, the CR obviously felt differently. And, when it comes down to it, that is who makes the call. I would hope that the CR recognized what the AR was calling, but disagreed and felt that it was not offsides. As opposed to the CR simply deciding to ignore the AR. Was the attacker involved in active play? I can't say. If he interferred with the goalie, then I would say yes. From your description, it appears that the CR disagreed. And, all we can hope is that he disagreed based on his judgment, and not because he did not understand the rule.
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Post by furriner on Feb 11, 2010 14:35:35 GMT -6
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Post by cardsinhand on Feb 11, 2010 14:37:45 GMT -6
KUDOS's to the AR for making the right call. I'll refrain from what I want to say about the Center who didn't use his AR's call. Why don't we have 1 man crews from now on? ALso, what is the point of the 4th official in a playoff game? I have only once saw a 4th official call over a center to advise them on a call that was missed but seen by them. Coach can we take this to mean you and the coaches will now make a push to get the best qualified officials on the matches regardless of association? Couple of things from the referee class "in the opinion of the referee" and they are called assistant referees and not insistent referees for a reason. Final decision remains in the hands of the referee. It's true we do not have trained 4th officials and some assignors put their "rookies" there to get them "experience" with playoffs and the atmosphere/pressure. That doesn't always work out for the best. Assessors do hold the referees accountable but unfortunately there are none in LHSAA. Now the offside question? Page 13 in this pdf has a pretty good picture of what I think you are describing. Take a peek. www.fifa.com/mm/document/afdeveloping/refereeing/law_11_offside_en_47383.pdf
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Post by time2retire on Feb 11, 2010 14:55:27 GMT -6
BC, what was the player doing there? Did he run in from an anticipated cross and his momentum carried him there? Was he injured and lying on the ground motionless?
Supporting the other officials in this thread - the AR simply signals his opinion to the referee, and the referee has the final authority on the call. It went against you this time. I'm sure mistakes have been made in your favor in the past.
Addressing referee accountability - NFHS does not have assessors like USSF does, this is true. Even without a formal assessment, a referees performance during a NFHS game can and should be constructively criticized by his peers given the referee is open to making himself better. I have sat at many, many NFHS games and given my friends feedback on things they can do to improve their performance. This is an association issue.
Being a fourth can be demanding, as it requires your eyes and attention to be everywhere at once. Couple this with a hot tempo game and unruly benches, the fourth official is possibly doing the most work of the four.
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Post by beauchenecoach on Feb 11, 2010 19:45:04 GMT -6
KUDOS's to the AR for making the right call. I'll refrain from what I want to say about the Center who didn't use his AR's call. Why don't we have 1 man crews from now on? ALso, what is the point of the 4th official in a playoff game? I have only once saw a 4th official call over a center to advise them on a call that was missed but seen by them. Coach can we take this to mean you and the coaches will now make a push to get the best qualified officials on the matches regardless of association? Couple of things from the referee class "in the opinion of the referee" and they are called assistant referees and not insistent referees for a reason. Final decision remains in the hands of the referee. It's true we do not have trained 4th officials and some assignors put their "rookies" there to get them "experience" with playoffs and the atmosphere/pressure. That doesn't always work out for the best. Assessors do hold the referees accountable but unfortunately there are none in LHSAA. Now the offside question? Page 13 in this pdf has a pretty good picture of what I think you are describing. Take a peek. www.fifa.com/mm/document/afdeveloping/refereeing/law_11_offside_en_47383.pdfI have seen that and know law 11 quite well. IT is like what you would see on page 18 of that document www.fifa.com/mm/document/afdeveloping/refereeing/law_11_offside_en_47383.pdf , except player in offside position is in goal mouth by post and ball goes towards him. He actually jumped to head the ball as well, but didn't touch it and it went in. Either way, he was in offside position, definitely in the play, and prevented the keeper from diving to attempt to save the ball. AR GOT IT RIGHT! I hear what you are saying about centers... but I remember a game where a center didn't see an altercation from a player on the ground and apparently neither the AR... AR saw something which was not nearly the whole story, told Center to RED the player and the center did! That is a center taking his AR's word for it. NO complaint for that. But why is it different this time? This is not a matter of video being off centered and that sort. The most popular line from an official is that the AR has the best angle (when it comes to offside). THis was not a question of offside, it was. THe question is why was the call reversed and a goal given. THat is my point. NOt trying to hang an official out to dry... just would like an explanation. I can not give you a more clear description. Player is in an offside position at the far post INSIDE the goal mouth at the goal line. Ball goes toward him, he jumps and misses, ball goes in... keeper could not get to ball because of the offside player. Should this offside call not have stood and the goal not counted? I know you are one of the top officials in the state and I respect you more than any other official in the high school game. IN FACT, both coaches of this game asked for you to be the center if possible. Maybe then, this would have been averted.
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Post by beauchenecoach on Feb 11, 2010 19:50:06 GMT -6
One more point... same game. A handball in the box, not seen by center but by the other AR.... when asking him why he didn't call it, he said it was the Center's call. Really? And this was not a ball playing arm, it was a moving arm playing the ball and knocking off of it's path.
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Post by northlasoccerdad on Feb 11, 2010 20:26:01 GMT -6
This is a general comment, not about this particular event.
I was a referee in an LSA Division I State Cup match in which a player was in an offside position (indisputably) and a goal was scored by another player. The AR raised his flag to signal the offside position and a discussion between the CR and the AR ensued. A State referee was watching the match (in an official monitoring capacity) and came over to join the discussion. In an effort to clarify the situation, the State referee asked this question, which I think was useful: "If the player in the offside position was removed from the field (ie., just "erase" him), would it have made a difference in the play? If the answer is yes, removing him would have made a difference, then an offside penalty should be called. If the answer is no, removing him would not have made a difference, then an offside penalty should not be called." In this case, no offside penalty was awarded and the goal was allowed.
Here's another way to look at it. The AR, if he is in the correct position, is the only one on the field who can decide if a player is in an offside position at the time the ball is played. The AR must then make the decision if the player in the offside position is "involved in play". If the player is involved in play, it's an offside penalty. If the player is not involved in play, it is not an offside penalty. If the AR is not completely certain whether the player is involved in play ("I know the player was in an offside position, but I really can't tell if he was involved in play"), it is reasonable to raise his flag to communicate the offside position and let the CR make the ultimate decision about whether to award an offside penalty. Sometimes the AR's perspective and the CR's perspective together are necessary in the final analysis. Ultimately, it is a judgement call on the part of the center referee.
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Post by furriner on Feb 11, 2010 20:45:52 GMT -6
....or the AR stands at attention where he/she was when the ball went in and thus signals to the center that there may be a problem with the "goal". This should lead to the center approaching and having a short discussion about what was seen. Center then makes decision. I have seen this done this season.
I have also seen a grade 1 (many years ago in furrin places) go over the AR and say, " shake your head. Today is Saturday, isn't it?" When the AR nodded, center blew whistle and ran off indicating a goal leaving a very bemused AR. Center was a family friend
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Post by beauchenecoach on Feb 11, 2010 20:52:55 GMT -6
So in essence... Remove the player and keeper has a shot at the save... Therefore offside
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Post by Steven Gerrard on Feb 11, 2010 21:13:19 GMT -6
Again, we can't really question whether offsides should have been called or not. Those of us on the list were not there and so we can't say one way or another. You feel that it should have been called, and that is fine.
But, I don't have a problem with the CR waiving off the AR on the call. Many times you want to go with the AR's call. For example, the player has his/her back to the CR, and a handball foul is committed. The AR makes the call, and the CR blows his whistle. He didn't see it, but he trusts the AR. However, what if the CR did see the play? What if the ball hit the player on the arm, but the arm was at the players side and the CR didn't think that it should be called? It is up to the CR to make the final decision, and he can waive off the AR. Perhaps that is what happened in this case. The CR saw the AR raise his flag for the offsides call, but the CR didn't think that the player was involved in active play. So, he overrules the AR. That is the prerogative of the CR in that situation. He saw the play and disagreed with the AR.
Again, I am not saying that the CR (or the AR for that matter) was correct on the call in your game. But, you had questioned as to why the CR would overrule the AR, and I just wanted to note that it is fine for the CR to make the call and overrule the AR.
Thanks for bringing this up. This is a good discussion and causes all of us to think more about these type of situations. In your own way, you have helped to increase the level of officiating.
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Post by tonygalinto on Feb 11, 2010 21:19:57 GMT -6
NOt trying to hang an official out to dry... . Glad you cleared that up, for a few post there I was convinced that was the reason for all this.
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Post by cardsinhand on Feb 11, 2010 21:21:28 GMT -6
1. - BCcoach thanks for the kind words. Very much appreciated. 2. - I have not spoke with any of the crew and all I know about the match is what I have read on here. 3. - I think there is a big difference in the pics on page 13 and 18. Your "pic" (which is very creative and good) places the attacker behind the keeper. 4. - AR angles are the best for evaluating position. The referee usually has a better idea of involvement and interference. AR gave information and the referee made the decision based on what he saw and AR's info. 5. - Speaking of AR info, in the game in which the player was sent off, you said the key words "the referee didn't see". I he doesn't see what happens he has an obligation to the game to use the AR's info. In this game, I'm assuming the referee saw what was being called and based his decision on that and the AR's info. Still ultimately his decision. Best of luck, hope everyone is learning. Which by the way is what keep me from working the match. I had to educate more future referees to be yelled at and complained about. ;D ;D
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Post by beauchenecoach on Feb 11, 2010 22:19:47 GMT -6
thanks cardsinhand...
My picture maybe just didn't show it the proper way... he was not IN the goal... was at the post inbetween the posts, in the way of the goal and in an offside position. I have no doubt the AR made the right call. The AR has no doubt he made the right call and he is a very seasoned official who usually would be the center of a match of this quality. I just want to get it cleared up that what was called (originally by AR) was the right call. And just because the ball went into the net and wasn't touched by the offside player (like some have stated on the other board and the coaches from the other school did)... that it is still an offside offense per Law 11 and the diagram on 18. You said the difference... I know it wasn't directly infront of the keeper, but it was in his way and prevented him from making a play on the ball. So by the rules, it should have been called, it was called, but should have stood as called.
Tony Galinto... I really am not hanging him out to dry. I know the Center personally and he is a good friend of mine and will continue to be. He made a bad call (or 3) in a very costly game. Although I will rag him about this call for a very, very long time and possibly send him a copy of the video with a loop of the questionable calls... over, and over, and over, and over again! LOL!
Cardsinhand... as for the other game... I don't think the AR saw it either! LOL! What he did see was only a player standing up trying to get his leg free from a player on the ground who had repeatedly kick him. If that is called striking a player then you should have seen some of the no calls or non carded fouls last night! LOL!
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Post by beauchenecoach on Feb 11, 2010 22:22:11 GMT -6
Thanks for bringing this up. This is a good discussion and causes all of us to think more about these type of situations. In your own way, you have helped to increase the level of officiating. That is my reason for doing this... I want a little clarification on LAW 11 and I do want others who read this to understand it. Everyone makes mistakes and that is understandable. I make terrible coaching mistakes all of the time, that's why we are sitting at home now instead of playing Teurlings for the 3rd time.
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Post by gutsyref on Feb 12, 2010 14:27:35 GMT -6
The question you need to ask yourself Coach is what was even discussed between the Center Ref and the AR. Sometime the Center has a better angle to establish whether are not there actually was any interference from the attacker in the offside position. Also where was the keepers eyes while the ball was entering the goal. Maybe in the judgment of the center ref your keeper was beat all the way and he had no chance in saving this ball. Maybe when the center ask his AR "did that player change the outcome of that goal if he was not there" the AR said NO. Maybe it was both the Center and the AR decision to do the right thing and award the goal. These are all things you DO NOT have the answerer for. While one coach is complaining the other coach is commending the courage it took to make that call. If the shoe was on the other foot, I'm sure you would not be posting all this on leprep nor would the Woodlawn Coach. I will say that all high school play off games are intense and everybody wants to win. Sometime refs would like to write on coaching forums and make comments about bad coaching that cost their teams the game. But that's not the answerer to the problem. As a Coach did you do everything possible for your team to win that game? Did your team out shoot your opponent? Did you make adjustments to score in the final moments of the game? Are did you do like most coaches and run around screaming like a fool at the referee and tell him what he is doing wrong? Good Luck in the Future Coach. And remember we are always looking for Refs!! LOL
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