Threshold for fouls

[northlasoccerdad]

OK... I'm gonna do it.

Some of the playoff games, especially Jesuit v Lafayette, raised the question about whether the threshold for a foul varies according to whether the foul is in the penalty box or outside it, and/or whether it is a regular season game or a playoff game.

Is the threshold for a foul always the same regardless of the setting?

Or do we as referees sometimes have a higher threshold for fouls in the penalty box, and especially for fouls in the penalty box in a playoff game?

This may be a little like pointing out that the emperor is wearing no clothes. ("How can he even ask such a question?") However, I'm really curious what folks think about this.

[brhsoccer14]

I actually don't break it up by inside or outside the box but rather by thirds of the field. If a player is in his or her attacking half, I really think the said player's foul threshold goes up. The middle of the field is what I like to think of as the third that controls the match. You make calls there that help calm the game down. I'm not saying make up calls, but maybe lower what you think of as a foul. No one is REALLY hurt by this foul. That being said, it still has to be a foul and nothing weak or something to "just make a call". Of course, in the past few years, teams have been making tactical fouls in this third because they understand that it is not the "critical" third, but points of emphasis have been passed out telling us to watch for this pattern and punish accordingly.

Anyway, to answer your question, I really believe that the foul "threshold" is raised while it is in the penalty area. This is the harshest penalty that can be enforced against a team other than a send off so I really think that there has to be something there to be penalized as such. I would call a slight hack or something small for a defender facing his own goal, but probably would not call the same foul in the area for an offensive player.

Of course, this is all up to the judgement of the referee.

Now... let's see how much I get torn up by the real referees.

[Steven Gerrard]

In theory, no, the same threshold for a foul should apply all over the field. Was it a trip? Was it a charge? However, I have to admit, that when I am the center, I am acutely aware of when the ball and player is in the box, and if the foul will cost the defending team a penalty kick. Thus, before I make the call, I want to make sure that there is no question at all that it is a foul. So, a charge that I may have called at midfield, I would be more hesitant to call if it is made in the box. Is that right? Maybe not. But, I have to admit it to be true, and I am sure that this is also true with other refs. I am rather inexperienced as compared to other refs, so perhaps that is something I need to work on. But, I would guess that I am not alone.

[dulac]

A foul you call in the middle of the field better be called in the "box". If not, you become one of those refs others refer to as inconsistent. As long as you are consistent, your calls won't be questioned. If this means taking a few minutes before calling your first foul, then so be it.
There are fouls that are trifling that won't merit a call at all. "Ignorant" fans have a problem with those non calls, but it's for the good of the game. Consistency, fairness and fitness make for a good referee. Lacking one? You are asking for trouble.

[brhsoccer14]

Hmm. Alright, to see if I am understanding you dulac...

Defender, outside his own 18, facing own goal gets a nice little nudge from the attacking player. He loses the ball to the attacker. Do you call the foul?

Attacker, inside his attacking 18, facing away from goal gets the same little nudge from the defender. Do you call the foul now?

I am not asking for theoretical, but for practical applications. Technically a foul is a foul no matter where on the field it is. However, I don't believe this is how it is practiced.

[dulac]

Mar 4, 2010 15:20:54 GMT -6 brhsoccer14 said:

Hmm. Alright, to see if I am understanding you dulac...

Defender, outside his own 18, facing own goal gets a nice little nudge from the attacking player. He loses the ball to the attacker. Do you call the foul?

Attacker, inside his attacking 18, facing away from goal gets the same little nudge from the defender. Do you call the foul now?

I am not asking for theoretical, but for practical applications. Technically a foul is a foul no matter where on the field it is. However, I don't believe this is how it is practiced.

Let's use a U19 boys game as example. Of course we ref differently for the different age levels.

I most likely wouldn't call the little nudge outside the 18 to begin, neither would I call it in the middle of the field. If a player loses possession from a little nudge, they never had full possession. From what I said in my earlier post, the fouls you start to call in the beginning of the game should dictate what you call throughout the game. You take your cue from the players in the beginning of the game just as they take their cues from you in the first few minutes of the game. You will know what they want or what you should call 10-15 minutes in. And...they will know what you will or won't allow in the same time frame. I may make a comment about the "little nudge" to the offender, but I'm not calling it. Soccer is a contact sport.
BTW, as a mentor, one of the first things I tell my protege is that if he/she calls a foul at midfield, they had better be prepared to call it in the box. They've set the tone, they had better have the "balls" to be CONSISTENT. I've had assessors tell me the same thing.

[brhsoccer14]

I don't know if I fully agree. I feel like there are differences that vary with the way the game is going as well as where the play is on the field. I feel like you adjust with the players rather than the other way around. If you are calling very little and you can see players start to get angry from both sides to the point that the fouls start to get worse, I think it is time to call those fouls that you were letting go earlier.

I also feel that position of the ball and player are also important to consider.

I am not saying that the there is a huge gap from inside the attacking third to other thirds, but I feel there needs to be a little bit more to award fouls that are potential goal scorers.

You said you would comment about the nudge to the offender, what would you say? If it's not a foul, why say anything? If it is a foul, why not call it?

Always trying to see things from different perspectives. I like hearing your thoughts. I've thrived off of others' comments and opinions. And like you said, it is always great to be able to come back from Regionals or other prestigious tournaments and pass on the information you learn to those trying to learn.

[futbolislife]

A good discussion here. For those that say a foul is a foul regardless of where it happens, I would agree. If a referee decides that a certain action is a foul at midfield, then it's a foul in the Penalty Area. It takes courage to make this decision in a tight game.

In the assessment criteria, there used to e a category called "character, courage and consistency". In this area, assessors look for these very items. while the new criteria may no longer specify these items, they are still a part of any assessment.

To the discussions on what is a foul. As some have pointed out, a "nudge" in a U-19 game may not be a foul but it may be a foul in a U11 game. Why? Isn't a foul a foul? Not necessarily. It used to be the Laws of the Game stated that trivial fouls should not be called. This has been removed but that concept still applies. What level of contact are the players willing to accept? What is normal to them? What can they play through. The effective referee must also communicate to the players what is happening. If a referee senses that the players are not playing through those, then they need to "tighten" the reins. The effective referee senses those emotions and must adapt and change accordingly in order to manage the game.

USSF over the past couple of years has stressed to referees the concept of game flow. Last year, at the national level, it was phrased as "risk taking". USSF wanted less fouls called in order to maintain game flow. While the terms may have changed, the concept is still the same. They want less stoppages of play and more flow to the game, which is what we see in other parts of the world.

Certainly, the techniques involved here are advanced and may or may not be suitable to the youth game. Variables are numerous but certainly should include the skill level of the players. Players at some levels may be unwilling to accept some of these principles and referees need to be able to sense it and read it. This was discussed heavily at the recent ODP Finals in Metarie in January of this year and stressed through the weekend.

If referees would like more info, certainly there are a few people here who have been through many sessions on this and can assist in some of this information. As a part of normal referee training, referees should be reading the "week in Review" on the USSF web site. There are many discussions on these concepts including this one link. www.ussoccer.com/News/Referee-Programs/2008/08/U-S-Soccer-Referee-Week-In-Review-Week-19.aspx

Again, referees should be cautioned that these techniques do require some education and background. USSF has directed most of their discussions to the pro game but certainly many of the basic concepts can be applied to the youth game.

[brhsoccer14]

I certainly understand what is being said, but I don't feel that is how it is practiced nor how it should be practiced.

I see that I am wrong from your insightful postings, but I can't help but feel that what I am saying should be considered. There are fouls that I call in the game to help control the match. If I make that same call in the penalty area, I am going to get people that call it weak.

For instance, this happened in my last match:
A player had the ball in his own 18 coming out and a player, trying to get the ball from the player, accidentally stepped on his foot. Ouch it hurt, it's a foul, and it was given with no complaint. If I would have called the same foul in the penalty area as an attack, I think I would have been murdered.

Clearly, I have two highly qualified referees telling me that I am incorrect, so now I am trying to learn.

[Steven Gerrard]

Mar 5, 2010 7:31:52 GMT -6 futbolislife said:

A good discussion here. For those that say a foul is a foul regardless of where it happens, I would agree. If a referee decides that a certain action is a foul at midfield, then it's a foul in the Penalty Area. It takes courage to make this decision in a tight game.

In the assessment criteria, there used to e a category called "character, courage and consistency". In this area, assessors look for these very items. while the new criteria may no longer specify these items, they are still a part of any assessment.

Another word that comes to mind is confidence. You need to be confident in the calls that you make. It is one thing to be confident for a call you make in the middle third. That is probably not going to lead directly to a goal for a team, so not as much pressure. But, when you make that call in the attacking third, you know that heat will come with it. So, you need to be confident in your call. And, you get that confidence through experience. Centering games and making calls. Being assessed by someone. Attending meetings or seminars to discuss referee issues.

And, yes, a call in the middle third should be made all over the field. There is a reason my a foul in the box should led to a penatly kick. You want teams to have opportunities to score. Otherwise, defendants would knock the attackers around and reduce the chance of any scoring, something that is unfair to the attacking team (on both ends of the field). Play should flow when the ball is that close to the goal. Increased scoring makes the game more exciting and interesting. The threshold should be the same as in the other parts of the field.

[happyjack]

For a foul to occur, the challenge must be reckless, careless, or using excessive force. While you may not call a careless foul in the 18 (depending on the circumstances), those that are reckless or with excessive force must be called. BRHS, see if this doesn't make the explanation a bit easier to understand.

I've heard people say that a foul in the 18 shouldn't be called unless it takes away a goal scoring opportunity. I always respond to that statement with "so if a player without the ball is punched in the box, we should just ignore it as they didn't have the ball and couldn't score?"

[brhsoccer14]

Reckless challenges are those that are cautionable and challenges that involve excessive force warrant send offs. I certainly have seen calls made in the penalty area that did not have a card issued in conjunction with the foul being called. I am talking about fouls that are just above trivial... say, the careless fouls that maybe some people would call weak. If I think a foul is reckless or in excessive force, there is no doubt in mind that it should be called everywhere on the field including the penalty area.
I understand everything said above and agree with dulac. I was just trying to get a full understanding of what should and should not be called. We also talked about this over the phone, and it's not a matter of I don't know what I am doing but rather an inquiry on whether or not we should call that little hack that doesn't affect anything inside the penalty area. Little hacks are careless and definitely hurt, but should we give a penalty for it? That was the debate I was trying to invoke.

I was talking to dulac about this:
At the beginning of a match, the referee usually sets a standard of fouls that the players can adjust to during the match. However, sometimes situations lead to a change in the temperment in the game whether it be a missed call, a call that is perceived to be missed, a change in score, a change in time, etc. During these times, I feel that the referee should adjust their foul discrimination to account for the change in temperment of the match. My inquisitive mind wanted to know whether we should call the lesser of a foul inside the penalty area since we are just changing our calls for a few minutes to adjust to the game.

As dulac noted in our side discussion, it is hard to see what I am really trying to say in these posts. It would be easier to describe my question in person which I have asked to the "higher ups" that I have met during out of state trips to GIT, Regionals, Disney, etc.