nolapelota
All-District
No longer "booming,,,"
Posts: 203
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Post by nolapelota on Jan 5, 2015 21:59:36 GMT -6
Im still not sure why some here want a "formula that takes into account losing to a strong opponent"--the current power point system has that: you get a half point for each win that a team that beats you has. .... The reward for playing and even losing to good teams is already there Ray, there is little incentive to play strong teams with the current formula. The cred for "one-half-of-wins" means the result of the game (W vs L) is more than twice as important as the "strength" of the opponent. The only way to provide an incentive for a weaker team to play a stronger team is to reduce the bonus for the result, or count all the wins of the opponent regardless of game result. In other words, raise the relative value of strength-of-opponent measured against result-of-game.
With the current formula where is there an incentive for ... say .... Haynes, to play this schedule (as they have so far this year)?
ED White L 1-0 University Lab L 1-0 Beau Chene L 1-0 Mandeville L 2-0 East Jefferson L 2-0 Bonnabel L 1-3
The most points they will gain from playing those teams will be from 7 to 10. Better to play some mid pack D-III team that will win 6-8 games playing in a weak division against teams that are weaker still. Want another example? Look at Pope John Paul ... a good D-III team with a killer schedule and a poor looking record. They might not even make the playoffs, yet they are probably a top 15 team in D-III.
This is what has happened in basketball. Trouble is, teams ranked 5-15 in the divisions are going to have a difficult time filling their schedules... except with top teams. The lower ranked teams would rather play still lower ranked teams. Sorry if I sound like a broken record, but ... LOOK AT BASKETBALL ... and if possible, talk to the coaches of the better programs.
I also disagree with Chad's comment to the effect that "principals want less district, more open scheduling." Once again, this mostly applies to the top teams. I have heard no principals or coaches of mid-level teams say this. Why? More "open scheduling" is going play havoc with the smaller mid-level programs ability to fill a program. As a matter of fact, everything going on including the "automatic higher-rated team home field advantage" is acting against the mid-rank teams in favor of the top few programs.
I have no dogs in the hunt, just want the best for the most.
- I wish I could see some acknowledgement of the scheduling problems being created for mid-tier schools who nevertheless take the sport seriously. - And I wish I could see some attempt to address these computer rnaking issues, or at least some willingness to consider revisions. - Until then, I might recommend voting against the 4 divisions/8 districts ... and the 24 team playoff, and the higher-seed automatic home game. -I would also like to see a limit on number of games against the same opponent being counted for rankingto, say, three not counting tournament matchups.
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Post by Tarheel on Jan 6, 2015 7:35:23 GMT -6
MaxPreps calculates strength of schedule in their rankings... Not sure the mathemagic behind the calculation but could be worth adding to the discussion. Main problem I see is getting teams to actually enter their results.
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nolapelota
All-District
No longer "booming,,,"
Posts: 203
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Post by nolapelota on Jan 6, 2015 8:00:08 GMT -6
MaxPreps calculates strength of schedule in their rankings... Not sure the mathemagic behind the calculation but could be worth adding to the discussion. Main problem I see is getting teams to actually enter their results. I followed MaxPreps rankings and power ratings in National and Louisisana small school basketball for a couple of seasons several years ago ... and I'll admit that their program did a pretty good job, a lot better than most programs (there are several other national ranking programs being published... but all seem to depend on results posted on individual State sites). At one time, over 10 years ago it was proposed that the LHSAA adopt MaxPreps rankings for football. I believe the proposal was tabled without a vote. But it did generate a lot of discussion on the old laprepsoccer.net site...especially when the basketball/volleyball formula was being proposed for LHSAA. However, their algorithm is proprietary. According to their web site, it factors in all results nationwide which should make for a stronger comparison, and it apparently factors in victory margin and a complicated way of judging "strength" relationship to "result." You seem to be spot on about the problems with getting complete "results" entered. In MaxPreps (as in other computer programs) for the most part it seems that soccer has much spottier posting of scores than basketball...even in States with a relatively high HS soccer profile. Of course MaxPreps' soccer ranking is complicated somewhat by the different seasons for soccer in the different States. Many States play soccer in the Fall, more play in the Spring, and a few play in the Winter. Nationally, high school soccer does not have a standard recognized "season."
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Post by Tarheel on Jan 6, 2015 9:00:30 GMT -6
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Post by pOkLE on Jan 6, 2015 9:12:37 GMT -6
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Post by cenlacoach on Jan 6, 2015 13:32:44 GMT -6
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Post by rora on Jan 9, 2015 15:58:15 GMT -6
Now, using base geographics as my only guide, here is what I think the Districts can look like, if every school stays in class: D IDistrict 1 | District 2 | District 3 | District 4 | District 5 | District 6 | District 7 | District 8-----District 9 | Airline | Natchitoches Central | Acadiana | Baton Rouge | Denham Springs | Covington | Destrehan | Bonnabel------Brother Martin | Byrd | Pineville | Barbe | Catholic-BR | Hammond | Fontainebleau | Hahnville | Ehret-----Rummel | Southwood | West Monroe | Comeaux | Dutchtown | Ponchatoula | Mandeville | HL Bourgeois | Chalmette----Jesuit | Shreve | | Lafayette | East Ascension | Walker | Northshore | Thibodaux | Higgins----Holy Cross | Caddo | | New Iberia | McKinley | Zachary | Slidell | | N/a-----Shaw | | | Sulphur | St Amant | | St Pauls | | N/a-----Jesuit |
D IIDistrict 1 | District 2 | District 3 | District 4 | District 5 | District 6 | District 7 | District 8 | Benton | Neville |
| Belaire |
| Central Lafourche | East Jefferson | Helen Cox | Parkway | Ouachita Parish | Beau Chene | Broadmoor |
| Ellender | East St John | Landry Walker | Haughton | Ruston | Carencro | Central-BR | Lakeshore | South Lafourche | Grace King | Riverdale | Northwood | West Ouachita | St Thomas More | Live Oak | Salmen | South Terrebonne | ben Franklin | West Jefferson |
| Alexandria |
| Tara | | Terrebonne | | |
| Tioga | Westgate | Woodlawn-BR | | | | |
D IIIDistrict 1 | District 2---District 2B | District 3 | District 4 | District 5 | District 6 | District 7 | District 8 | Bastrop | Bolton |
| Abbeville | Episcopal-BR | Franklinton |
| De La Salle | Bossier | Buckeye | St. Louis | Erath | Parkview Baptist | Independence |
| JS Clark | Loyola | Grant | Notre Dame | Kaplan | Plaquemine | Pearl River | ED White | Lusher Charter | Minden | Peabody | Opelousas | St. martinville | St Michaels | | Lutcher | International HS of NO | North Desoto | DeRidder | Teurlings | North Vermillion | University | | Morgan City | Belle Chasse | | Leesville |
| | West Feliciana | | Vandebilt Catholic | NO Military and Maritime |
D IVDistrict 1 | District 2 | District 3 | District 4 | District 5 | District 6 | District 7 | District 8 | Calvary Baptist | Ouachita Christian |
| Ascension Episcopal | Ascension Christian | Archbishop Hannan | Covenant Christian | Haynes Academy | Evangel Christian | St Frederick | Catholic PC? | Catholic-NI | Catholic-PC? | Northlake Christian | Houma Christian | Isadore Newman | North Caddo | Rapides | Lafayette Christian | David Thibodaux | Christian Life | Pine | Patrick Taylor | Lutheran | Red River | Glenmora | Opelousas Catholic | Episcopal of Acadiana | Dunham | Pope John Paul II | Riverside Academy | Metairie park Country Day | | Menard | Westminster |
| Lee Magnet | St Thomas Aquinas | St Charles | St Martins | | Grace Christian | |
| Runnels | | Thomas Jefferson | |
3 and 4 could combine to form one district. If not, Cath PC has history of being in distinct with Opelousas Catholic and Westmimster in major sports districts before. For girls, 3 and 4 would merge for one less district in girls.
Chad-- I can see pretty much everything you have in D I, II and III provided the school all choose to play upand if the 8 district rule isnt hard and fast. My differences are in D IV. Catholic-PC will stay in Baton Rouge in my opinion. The new Bridge between West Feliciana and Pointe Coupee Parishes makes travel into BTR very easy by way of Airline Hwy. I dont think they want any part of having to try and commute to and from Lafayette. Im not sure those Alexandria schools will want to head up to NELA when there are plenty of options for district play local and closer. OC is a smidge more than an hour from these schools, and that is closer than sending Glenmora to Ouachita parish on 2 lane roads. 1 to 1 1/2 hours to commute for a district game is not that bad in my eyes--It'll take me an hour to get from Gonzales to Parkview Baptist on Monday at rush hour! Im afraid we will continue to see a two team district in NELA--been that way forever and still will. No biggie. And if the concern is OC commuting, just put them in the metro Lafayette district (District 4)as well as Lafayette Christian and Westminster, with the 4 Alexandria metro teams in District 3. Yes it will be 7 teams in District 4, but that will be a super district and it will only require 6 games if they play each other once. Again, its all hypothetical While I do generally support the 4 Divisions proposal, your chart points out something that I noticed when the school populations were posted - Salmen and we (Lakeshore) were the only teams in our area at our divisional level. When I first saw that, I figured we would then be put back into district again with teams across the Lake such as EJ and Franklin. But then NOLA area already has two 4 team districts.
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Post by methuselah on Jan 9, 2015 16:33:30 GMT -6
While I do generally support the 4 Divisions proposal, your chart points out something that I noticed when the school populations were posted - Salmen and we (Lakeshore) were the only teams in our area at our divisional level. When I first saw that, I figured we would then be put back into district again with teams across the Lake such as EJ and Franklin. But then NOLA area already has two 4 team districts. Unless you could talk some or all of Franklinton, Independence and Pearl River to play up and join ya'll.
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Post by East St Tam on Jan 9, 2015 21:47:26 GMT -6
This is great stuff, I like the 4 divisions, but I am still jamming to the STYX video (my generation) thanks JB
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Post by Tarheel on Jan 10, 2015 21:00:34 GMT -6
When will this be finalized?
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Post by beauchenecoach on Jan 11, 2015 2:13:03 GMT -6
Heard Cecilia got permission to use their park field with lights so they are now a real possibility for D3 and a new soccer team also! See, already, we are adding teams like them and St Martinville at the 4a area... Wait till,the 2A and 1A teams start adding teams!
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Post by beauchenecoach on Jan 11, 2015 2:14:32 GMT -6
Chad-- I can see pretty much everything you have in D I, II and III provided the school all choose to play upand if the 8 district rule isnt hard and fast. My differences are in D IV. Catholic-PC will stay in Baton Rouge in my opinion. The new Bridge between West Feliciana and Pointe Coupee Parishes makes travel into BTR very easy by way of Airline Hwy. I dont think they want any part of having to try and commute to and from Lafayette. Im not sure those Alexandria schools will want to head up to NELA when there are plenty of options for district play local and closer. OC is a smidge more than an hour from these schools, and that is closer than sending Glenmora to Ouachita parish on 2 lane roads. 1 to 1 1/2 hours to commute for a district game is not that bad in my eyes--It'll take me an hour to get from Gonzales to Parkview Baptist on Monday at rush hour! Im afraid we will continue to see a two team district in NELA--been that way forever and still will. No biggie. And if the concern is OC commuting, just put them in the metro Lafayette district (District 4)as well as Lafayette Christian and Westminster, with the 4 Alexandria metro teams in District 3. Yes it will be 7 teams in District 4, but that will be a super district and it will only require 6 games if they play each other once. Again, its all hypothetical While I do generally support the 4 Divisions proposal, your chart points out something that I noticed when the school populations were posted - Salmen and we (Lakeshore) were the only teams in our area at our divisional level. When I first saw that, I figured we would then be put back into district again with teams across the Lake such as EJ and Franklin. But then NOLA area already has two 4 team districts. Honestly, left it that way cause I figure one of two things... Someone will join Yall by playing up or moving from another district or both of you will go back across the lake and it could shake up,the two NOLA districts make up.
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Post by rora on Jan 11, 2015 8:30:27 GMT -6
While I do generally support the 4 Divisions proposal, your chart points out something that I noticed when the school populations were posted - Salmen and we (Lakeshore) were the only teams in our area at our divisional level. When I first saw that, I figured we would then be put back into district again with teams across the Lake such as EJ and Franklin. But then NOLA area already has two 4 team districts. Honestly, left it that way cause I figure one of two things... Someone will join Yall by playing up or moving from another district or both of you will go back across the lake and it could shake up,the two NOLA districts make up. Like methusela said, I think Pearl River may move up but not as sure about Franklinton and I know very little about the Independence program since they were in our district in my high school days at Pope. In all honesty, I would not mind being placed back in with EJ and Franklin; we schedule them every year as it is.
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Post by chspc2 on Jan 11, 2015 21:50:43 GMT -6
Now, using base geographics as my only guide, here is what I think the Districts can look like, if every school stays in class: D IDistrict 1 | District 2 | District 3 | District 4 | District 5 | District 6 | District 7 | District 8-----District 9 | Airline | Natchitoches Central | Acadiana | Baton Rouge | Denham Springs | Covington | Destrehan | Bonnabel------Brother Martin | Byrd | Pineville | Barbe | Catholic-BR | Hammond | Fontainebleau | Hahnville | Ehret-----Rummel | Southwood | West Monroe | Comeaux | Dutchtown | Ponchatoula | Mandeville | HL Bourgeois | Chalmette----Jesuit | Shreve | | Lafayette | East Ascension | Walker | Northshore | Thibodaux | Higgins----Holy Cross | Caddo | | New Iberia | McKinley | Zachary | Slidell | | N/a-----Shaw | | | Sulphur | St Amant | | St Pauls | | N/a-----Jesuit |
D IIDistrict 1 | District 2 | District 3 | District 4 | District 5 | District 6 | District 7 | District 8 | Benton | Neville |
| Belaire |
| Central Lafourche | East Jefferson | Helen Cox | Parkway | Ouachita Parish | Beau Chene | Broadmoor |
| Ellender | East St John | Landry Walker | Haughton | Ruston | Carencro | Central-BR | Lakeshore | South Lafourche | Grace King | Riverdale | Northwood | West Ouachita | St Thomas More | Live Oak | Salmen | South Terrebonne | ben Franklin | West Jefferson |
| Alexandria |
| Tara | | Terrebonne | | |
| Tioga | Westgate | Woodlawn-BR | | | | |
D IIIDistrict 1 | District 2---District 2B | District 3 | District 4 | District 5 | District 6 | District 7 | District 8 | Bastrop | Bolton |
| Abbeville | Episcopal-BR | Franklinton |
| De La Salle | Bossier | Buckeye | St. Louis | Erath | Parkview Baptist | Independence |
| JS Clark | Loyola | Grant | Notre Dame | Kaplan | Plaquemine | Pearl River | ED White | Lusher Charter | Minden | Peabody | Opelousas | St. martinville | St Michaels | | Lutcher | International HS of NO | North Desoto | DeRidder | Teurlings | North Vermillion | University | | Morgan City | Belle Chasse | | Leesville |
| | West Feliciana | | Vandebilt Catholic | NO Military and Maritime |
D IVDistrict 1 | District 2 | District 3 | District 4 | District 5 | District 6 | District 7 | District 8 | Calvary Baptist | Ouachita Christian |
| Ascension Episcopal | Ascension Christian | Archbishop Hannan | Covenant Christian | Haynes Academy | Evangel Christian | St Frederick | Catholic PC? | Catholic-NI | Catholic-PC? | Northlake Christian | Houma Christian | Isadore Newman | North Caddo | Rapides | Lafayette Christian | David Thibodaux | Christian Life | Pine | Patrick Taylor | Lutheran | Red River | Glenmora | Opelousas Catholic | Episcopal of Acadiana | Dunham | Pope John Paul II | Riverside Academy | Metairie park Country Day | | Menard | Westminster |
| Lee Magnet | St Thomas Aquinas | St Charles | St Martins | | Grace Christian | |
| Runnels | | Thomas Jefferson | |
3 and 4 could combine to form one district. If not, Cath PC has history of being in distinct with Opelousas Catholic and Westmimster in major sports districts before. For girls, 3 and 4 would merge for one less district in girls.
Chad-- I can see pretty much everything you have in D I, II and III provided the school all choose to play upand if the 8 district rule isnt hard and fast. My differences are in D IV. Catholic-PC will stay in Baton Rouge in my opinion. The new Bridge between West Feliciana and Pointe Coupee Parishes makes travel into BTR very easy by way of Airline Hwy. I dont think they want any part of having to try and commute to and from Lafayette. Im not sure those Alexandria schools will want to head up to NELA when there are plenty of options for district play local and closer. OC is a smidge more than an hour from these schools, and that is closer than sending Glenmora to Ouachita parish on 2 lane roads. 1 to 1 1/2 hours to commute for a district game is not that bad in my eyes--It'll take me an hour to get from Gonzales to Parkview Baptist on Monday at rush hour! Im afraid we will continue to see a two team district in NELA--been that way forever and still will. No biggie. And if the concern is OC commuting, just put them in the metro Lafayette district (District 4)as well as Lafayette Christian and Westminster, with the 4 Alexandria metro teams in District 3. Yes it will be 7 teams in District 4, but that will be a super district and it will only require 6 games if they play each other once. Again, its all hypothetical As my name says......I am the Cath PC coach, and to be honest with you, travel to Lafayette can be a lot easier for us than going to Baton Rouge. The rush hour traffic in BR is horrible especially trying to go over the new bridge. The old bridge and Airline traffic is bad. The Audubon Bridge has no traffic but then we have to deal with either Airline traffic or I-10 traffic......again, rush hour is horrible. It is true that we have had traditional district rivalries in other sports with Opelousas Catholic and Westminster (but they are 2A now and we don't play them in football). It wouldn't bother me at all to travel to Lafayette for district games. Just saying......sorry Ray, I'll still schedule you though!
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Post by coachray40 on Jan 12, 2015 8:29:25 GMT -6
I stand corrected
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Post by beauchenecoach on Jan 12, 2015 21:54:28 GMT -6
Chad-- I can see pretty much everything you have in D I, II and III provided the school all choose to play upand if the 8 district rule isnt hard and fast. My differences are in D IV. Catholic-PC will stay in Baton Rouge in my opinion. The new Bridge between West Feliciana and Pointe Coupee Parishes makes travel into BTR very easy by way of Airline Hwy. I dont think they want any part of having to try and commute to and from Lafayette. Im not sure those Alexandria schools will want to head up to NELA when there are plenty of options for district play local and closer. OC is a smidge more than an hour from these schools, and that is closer than sending Glenmora to Ouachita parish on 2 lane roads. 1 to 1 1/2 hours to commute for a district game is not that bad in my eyes--It'll take me an hour to get from Gonzales to Parkview Baptist on Monday at rush hour! Im afraid we will continue to see a two team district in NELA--been that way forever and still will. No biggie. And if the concern is OC commuting, just put them in the metro Lafayette district (District 4)as well as Lafayette Christian and Westminster, with the 4 Alexandria metro teams in District 3. Yes it will be 7 teams in District 4, but that will be a super district and it will only require 6 games if they play each other once. Again, its all hypothetical As my name says......I am the Cath PC coach, and to be honest with you, travel to Lafayette can be a lot easier for us than going to Baton Rouge. The rush hour traffic in BR is horrible especially trying to go over the new bridge. The old bridge and Airline traffic is bad. The Audubon Bridge has no traffic but then we have to deal with either Airline traffic or I-10 traffic......again, rush hour is horrible. It is true that we have had traditional district rivalries in other sports with Opelousas Catholic and Westminster (but they are 2A now and we don't play them in football). It wouldn't bother me at all to travel to Lafayette for district games. Just saying......sorry Ray, I'll still schedule you though! Peter, if the lhssca has any say in helping with the new districts which we were told they may use a committee of us to help advise last spring during our advisory meeting, I'll make sure to pass that on.
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Post by pOkLE on Jan 22, 2015 19:09:52 GMT -6
Beating a 6-14 team counts more (11 points) than losing to a 20-0.team (10points). Under the 3,2,1 format, you would get 9points and 11points respectively. This just seems more accurate to me. Is there a reason this proposed point system doesn't have more traction? Are there other examples that show 3,2,1 format results in inconsistencies like the 5,2.5,0 system?
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Post by pOkLE on Jan 30, 2015 12:35:06 GMT -6
Ok, who's got the definitive division, district splits for next year?
When is the date of the LHSAA districting meeting to fomally decide them?
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Post by beauchenecoach on Jan 30, 2015 12:44:53 GMT -6
Ok, who's got the definitive division, district splits for next year? When is the date of the LHSAA districting meeting to fomally decide them? I've got numbers, but first we need to know who is new to the sport as they must commit to playing... I currently have (with the new ones I know) 39 per division or possibly 40... Before anyone plays up. I kind of went over where the splits would currently be somewhere either in this thread or somehwere else. But districts will be decided at reclassification.
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Post by beauchenecoach on Jan 30, 2015 12:46:02 GMT -6
Beating a 6-14 team counts more (11 points) than losing to a 20-0.team (10points). Under the 3,2,1 format, you would get 9points and 11points respectively. This just seems more accurate to me. Is there a reason this proposed point system doesn't have more traction? Are there other examples that show 3,2,1 format results in inconsistencies like the 5,2.5,0 system? A tie should always be half a win. Consistency. And why get anything for a loss besides schedule strength. Loss only 2 Pts less than a win but we still are talking about 30'ganes for some teams so schedule strength would mean more than winning so a team, any team, could schedule nothing but 20 game winners and lose every game and be ranked highly? The more you lower the difference between winning and losing, that will, happen. It is why we didn't do the 10, 5, 0 PR. You saw today. Power rankings are hard to change, especially with anything out of the ordinary once they are in. It's why we tested the formula for YEARs along with other variations. The one we are using was the one widely picked by everyone. Those who chose to adjust yearly and see how it affects scheduled and played the schedule to their team goals. Those who didn't care, had mixed results.
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