The "True" Team Terminator

[soccerrouge]

I guess I'll add this question:

Do you think there is a negative impact on the "Team" through this process?

My answer is yes, through what I know from 6 different high school teams, in a four year span.


My expectations of answers: 1) parents who have highly skilled kids, will say no and that the honors should be there, 2) parents of kids at the next level, will say yes, cause they have witness the impact of this happening to their child, 3) coaches will vary pending their experiences, 4) Parents of the "life lessons" generation, no, they need to learn these hard lessons early, get on with it, and work harder if they want to achieve, 5) Players who have never felt slighted, no, I want to be honored for my effort, 6) Players who have felt slighted, yes, it makes me want to quit or just be out for myself on the field, to hell with them, I making it for myself. 7) players who have accepted, no, I'll be there, doing what I do

[number3]

I think I got screwed in my junior year, but it only made me play harder and become a better leader in my senior year. I don't think I was looking out for just myself, but for my team as well. If we didn't get to the playoffs (which we did) I knew I wasn't going to be recognized outside of the district. I wanted it for more than myself, I wanted it for my team.

[rivers2]

In reading through this topic the whole spectrum of thoughts have been put forth regarding the All District selection.

Personally, I think the selection should remain with the coaches. The current system is flawed but is the best alternative. In my experiences it should be a prerequisite to keep the parents out of it for sure. I also don't think the players should have anything to do with selection.

I don't believe the notion of picking an All District team elevates some while deflating others. We live in a competitive world where accolades are given to those who excel. We see it in business, we see it in politics we even see it in school. Academic scholarships are given to individuals for the best grades not to a class with the highest GPA. At an early age we begin to compete with others and it's my opinion that there will always be those at the top of any competition. The benefit should be the competition, the reward (All District) is simply a byproduct. Most girls understand this and can relate. ( Parents have a much harder time with it)

Another twist is that the majority of college coaches do not follow the high school game.....they feel it is too slow and prefer to watch it at the club level. While they do not follow the high school game they certainly want any All District, All Metro and All State listed on the resumes of any player who plays on their teams website.

The selection process will never be 100% perfect but it is something that can be adjusted and streamlined to a uniformity that insures that all districts follow a mandated selection process. It's coming......

[gokings]

rivers2 said:

Academic scholarships are given to individuals for the best grades not to a class with the highest GPA.

This is not a good analogy at all.

In high school, academics are almost purely individual. No one gets through high school trying to help their classmates.

Soccer is a TEAM sport. It's not something that's individual. You don't play to boost your own stats, you play to win, and to win, you have to play as a team.

And in a team sport, an all-district team hurts many more than it helps.

[soccerrouge]

rivers2 said:

I don't believe the notion of picking an All District team elevates some while deflating others. We live in a competitive world where accolades are given to those who excel. We see it in business, we see it in politics we even see it in school. Academic scholarships are given to individuals for the best grades not to a class with the highest GPA. At an early age we begin to compete with others and it's my opinion that there will always be those at the top of any competition. The benefit should be the competition, the reward (All District) is simply a byproduct. Most girls understand this and can relate. ( Parents have a much harder time with it)

I like the opinions you have rives2, but to point out a few things with what is stated:

We see it in business, we see it in politics we even see it in school. Academic scholarships are given to individuals for the best grades not to a class with the highest GPA.

In business, and I can speak on this since I started low and am now at the top of the ladder, there is no real Team involved with a common focus and goal.

In politics, there are political teams, but the common focus on the teams IS the promotion of 1 individual - from the very start.

In academics there is absolutely no TEAM involved with a common focus and goal.

There is no doubt about different levels in competitive environments including teams, however the point for me is that acknowledging the level outside of the team causes animosity at some level within the team (even though the teammates may realize the different levels themselves). I state this, as I said before, from experience of conversations with girls outside of even my own team, and that is what I base my opinion on.

A wise person once posted on this board a season or two back something with a similar theme to this:

The only TRUE terminator is what TEAM lifts that trophy next weekend. The rest does not matter, and will be forgotten, but whoever has that trophy displayed at their school will always be remember.

Not trying to down anyone, but that is the fact. The rest of this, all opinions. Wait till all-state... lol, where it has been shown in the past someone with lets say 15 goals against quality competition is overlooked for 40+ goals scorers accumulated against teams one level above Jerry's kids...

[unmarked]

gokings said:

rivers2 said:

Soccer is a TEAM sport. It's not something that's individual. You don't play to boost your own stats, you play to win, and to win, you have to play as a team.

And in a team sport, an all-district team hurts many more than it helps.

Soccer is a team sport but there are individuals on teams that do stand out and make good things happen for their team. Players like this are not doing this for selfish reasons but because that is what they do. They are doing their best for their team to win. At the end of the year I think it's important to recognize young players that have the "knack" for making things happen either defensively or offensively. Teammates of these types of players in most cases would agree.

The root of the problem is poor choices or rather the logic/criteria for choices. Politics and a poor understanding of the dynamics of a soccer team and the matches they play is where many coaches go wrong. That being said I think that this should improve as more experienced, soccer savvy coaches become involved in high school soccer. God bless the parents and school representatives that have stepped up as coaches over the years to give these kids the opportunity to play soccer in high school. Without them we wouldn't be having this debate.

I believe that recognizing the top players is appropriate. Humans and the devices and systems we create are not going to be perfect. Regardless we can't let that stop us from doing our best to recognize these young players for doing what they do to make their team stronger.

[soccerrouge]

unmarked said:

gokings said:

rivers2 said:

That being said I think that this should improve as more experienced, soccer savvy coaches become involved in high school soccer. God bless the parents and school representatives that have

I believe that recognizing the top players is appropriate. Humans and the devices and systems we create are not going to be perfect. Regardless we can't let that stop us from doing our best to recognize these young players for doing what they do to make their team stronger.

Again, like the opinions stated unmarked, couple observations from my feelings:

From the first comment: You believe that "more experienced savvy coaches" will not be influenced and as humans won't make the same or as many mistakes. That would be great if it is true. For the sake of recognizing the actual deserving people consistently.

On the second section: Even if it is at the expense of the TEAM as a whole, it should happen? and the bottom line reason is that they deserve the recognition?

[saders1fan]

Have to agree with rivers2 and[tr][/tr] unmarked, more so than soocerrouge in that recognition of individuals is something almost inbred in the American psyche. When everyone is recognized the the quality has been removed in favor of the quantity. 44 players getting recognized versus 22? Hard to believe player #44 is of the same caliber as player #1, even as player #22 (player with least amount of votes garnered on second team). There is a far cry from say Ronaldihno (sp) to the player sitting on bench at Barcelona that never sees the field, except for practice. Yet they both hold the La Liga trophy up at the end of the year. Do they both deserved to be recognized as one of the best players in the world? The unknown player works just as hard (at least in theory), should he be recognized also?
There will always be ALL STAR teams, so recognizing individuals will always be a part of sports. Let's keep it at a level where it still has meaning. Maybe the "Oh Shoot" factor should play part in who is voted on to the first team, not the present politics (that has been in place since at least the late '80s that I know of). Ask each coach in your district to vote for only players that she/he would have on his own team if he was building one from scratch to play the Texas State Champ (or pick your own state), BUT he/she can not select more than one or two players from his/her own team. That no one coach could say I already have all of the best players in the district on my team.
Most coaches know who the best players are, and although they may sometimes wear blinders, most of the time told they can get it right and vote for those most deserving of the honors. Let's leave it in there hands, and save forums like this for us parents to complain about how come our favorite didn't get selected.

[unmarked]

Soccer rouge,

My point is simply this... I think that this is getting blown out of proportion by individuals that perceive that a player has been slighted or given undue recognition through this process. I do not believe that the system perfect nor do I believe that this process or any other for that matter will be perfect. It is my belief that as more professional coaches get involved with high school soccer the process should improve. That is not to say that some of these very same coaches will not make mistakes. I would also like to clarify that what you or anyone else thinks is a mistake as it relates to a process like this is really a matter of opinion. You and I both know that there are always differing opinions.

My second point is that it makes no sense to deny recognition of these players simply because everyone can't agree on who should have been recognized in the first place.

No disrespect but the notion that this process is a "Team Terminator" is ridiculous. I do not know of a single instance where recognizing top players has resulted in the destruction of an entire team. That being said I'm sure there is someone in this forum that truly believes that this has happened but is that really the case or simple emotion....?

[therighttime]

all-district
the right time again...

all district is not about soccer or sports. it is about recognition and fullfilling agendas. all district has no purpose. it is like a box of chocolates. you never know what you're going to get. when forrest gump is smarter than the system that is used to pick these players, it becomes surreal. after having seen the 1st team all district (district 6 in particular) squads, I was unsure if it wasn't the basketball coaches of these schools that picked this all-district soccer team. i believe that I could hand pick a middle school all-parish team from ascension that could beat the 1st team all district team in district 6. regardless, it would be a competitive game. a matter of fact, i would like to arrange it. i bet that game would have quite the audience. we can make it a fundraiser for the upcoming middle school season and split the money between the schools evenly. this would be for a great cause. it would help schools financially as well as develop the younger girls just before the start of the middle school season. i think lhsaa won't have a problem with it as long as it is before the state finals. i can definitely find out asap. everything about this game would be positive for the girls. a lot of excitement from the younger ones and it will give the all-district team a chance to make history and be the first team to play together as an elite group to finally prove, once and for all, that their honor befits them. they should be pumped at the opportunity to do so if they love the game of soccer. the middle school girls would LOVE it. this is the game of soccer! this is what it is about. right? where is the LOVE?!?!?!they will be able to prove they are actually a team. however, the fact remains that not ONE single head coach from district 6 would step up to attempt what shouldn't even be a challenge because they fear that everyone will know that all-district is NOT about the happiness of these girls. they'll know it is not about team. the coach's don't want people to find out what it really is. EGO. LIES. BACKSTABBING.words cannot fully grasp the complete crock of the entire process and it is shameful that coach's continue to partake in this KNOWING that is causes unnecessary misery among these girls. girls from the same team should not be competing against each other! it defeats the whole puirpose of team! this is not tennis. jerry rice didn't sack joe montana when the center hiked the ball. did he? the idiocy is mind-boggling that we continue to allow these girls to be hurt by this superficial and fanciful charade that we call all-district TEAM. please. there is no need to wonder why teams in BR and ascension don't ever win state championships. once in a blue moon. mckinnley girls in 2003, parkview boys in 2000, woodlawn boys in 1999. maybe one day we'll learn...maybe one day we can make our kids champions...thanks.

[rivers2]

Several years ago I spoke with a college coach who was scouting players at The University of Montevallo during Regional ODP camp. State teams had assembled throughout Region 111 which comprises most all Southern state teams and Texas state broken down into 4 teams. There were hundreds of college coaches in attendance.

I asked this coach (who shall remain nameless) what exactly he was looking for. The number 1 criteria (at least for him) was who set herself apart individually while playing in a team concept. In essence his reply said two things, 1) certain individuals set themselves apart and 2) team play is key.

In reality, this coach is picking a player to recruit but it is akin to picking a All District player. The team concept is the method that allows an individual to stand out......without it you'd have 11 girls running around trying to kick a ball.......it's been awhile but I remember those days.

To deny that certain individuals excel more than others is not fair to those individuals and denies the opportunity for others to improve one's self to excel to their highest level. Life rewards those that distinguish themselves......always has and always will. To deny that is what Mao tried in China......no individual glory was allowed only team glory.....last I looked that whole system wasn't working.

What is a team........it's individuals working together......it's goal is a collective goal and without exception that goal is to win. To cite those who excel in this noble endeavor is righteous. To deny them serves no purpose.

[soccerrouge]

rivers2 said:

I asked this coach (who shall remain nameless) what exactly he was looking for. The number 1 criteria (at least for him) was who set herself apart individually while playing in a team concept. In essence his reply said two things, 1) certain individuals set themselves apart and 2) team play is key.

In reality, this coach is picking a player to recruit but it is akin to picking a All District player. The team concept is the method that allows an individual to stand out......without it you'd have 11 girls running around trying to kick a ball.......it's been awhile but I remember those days.

To deny that certain individuals excel more than others is not fair to those individuals and denies the opportunity for others to improve one's self to excel to their highest level.

Rivers2, that's a very easy reply from a college coach cause he is NOT picking apart his own team, he is picking apart other teams to make his team. NO impact to his team.


The team concept is the method that allows an individual to stand out......without it you'd have 11 girls running around trying to kick a ball.......it's been awhile but I remember those days.

That's an opinion of a team concept that I haven't heard before. Typicall I hear team concept described as: a group of indivduals, blending together, supporting each others' strengths and weaknesses to accomplish a common goal.

I'm not trying to deny that certain individuals excel more than others, I'm trying to address the fallout of the team environment.

[rivers2]

Soccerrouge,

Like Don Quixote it appears you have found your windmill. Enjoy the joust.
Teams have survived individual honors to embellish the team concept for eons and I'd wager that it will always remain so. The true reward is the competition and the camaraderie forged in it's undertaking. That you consider honoring those at the top of the competition in some way demeans those not cited or is some way detrimental to the concept of team is not one universally shared. It's certainly your opinion and it is good that different opinions have a forum such as this. I look forward to the All Metro and the All State selections......good luck to all!

[soccerrouge]

Rivers2,
As I said in my initial start of this thread, I know its not going anywhere, but my point is the impact to a team. Also your statement:

That you consider honoring those at the top of the competition in some way demeans those not cited or is some way detrimental to the concept of team is not one universally shared.

I don't consider that or have ever said that it demeans, what I said is that the other individuals take it as a demotivating factor. That is what their feelings are, that's how some of them perceive it. However, yes I have said that the process is detrimental to the concept of team, and I said that due to the fact that I've witnessed it with 6 different teams. I'm also not trying to say it is universally shared, I'm saying it is my opinion.

I do respect your opinion.

[soccerwannabe]

Well, after 3 pages of discussion, I couldn't take the pressure.

I've concluded that this whole thread is pretty representative of the generation of kids growing up today. Generation Y The generation of self-fulfillment and entitlement. Well I say the buck stops here. It's OK for all to not be equal. Some perform better than others. I agree 100% that soccer is a team sport. However, it is made up of great players, good players, average players, and players that do the best they can. That's OK. This combination is what makes a TEAM. It doesn't mean anyone is a better person or worse, some are just better at what they do.

For those of you that are concerned with the players that go unrecognized, I'll pose this....
Ask those players if they would prefer that the All-District and All State players not be on their teams. I think you would get a resounding NO. Everyone wants to be part of a winner.

As far as the recognition, we all deal with things everyday that we disagree with. My boss does things that I don't like all the time . I work with people that get credit for things they are not necessarily deserving of. It's life. We would be doing our kids an injustice if we raised them with expectation that everything will be fair and you'll agree with every decision made that effects you. It's part of dealing with adversity and knowing how to work toward a goal for the right reason.

If you are playing your butt off every game in the hopes that you get All District then you are doing it for the wrong reason. Play to win and for your team to be successful. If recognition comes your way, great. If it comes your teammates way, even better. Soccerrouge said early that some will say 'Give a trophy to everyone and eat snacks" He's right many believe that we shouldn't keep score and everyone should get a trophy. It's wrong and it's not representative of the real world.

As far as District 6 goes. Yeah, probably too many. Certainly some subjective decisions. However, the coaches did what they thought made sense and other districts will be similar. There are only a few different types of people:

• You are happy because your player or teammate or daughter made it
  
• You're not happy because your player or teammate or daughter did not make it
  
• You are an independent observer who used to be one of the above
  

Let's enjoy the games, support out teams , and accept the post season awards for what they are. Recognition for a good season. If it's not what you were expecting, encourage your player to work harder to achieve whatever goal she desires, besides individual awards.

[soccerwannabe]

And for the record I belong to the group that has been there done that.

[soccerrouge]

nice conclusion soccerwannabe.

I appreciate all the post on this topic. Its been interesting. In conclusion from me, I was looking for 2 things 1) thoughts on re-motivating disappointed athletes, and 2) awareness to heighten selections.

In every district there are absolutely those who stand out above and deserve to be recognized for their work ethic, abilities, and play. There are those who are heavy contributors (and that's probably where it gets difficult to make the cut on all district selections).

Regardless, there will always be those who feel they have been short changed, and that is where we all need to work to keep the interest and re-establish the motivation.

Thanks again to all who contributed.

[loveofthegame]

i think eliminating all district and all state is a completely dumb idea. Call every college sport, professional sport, little league or any other sport and tell them to eliminate their all star teams. 99% of the time the team is on point and has the best players on it. If a player comes out and showcases her skill night in and night out they deserve to be rewarded. What about employee of the month awards, student of the year? These awards are no different. Not every kid is meant to be a great athlete, but every kid does have a role on a team.

[LoveTheGame]

The problem, IMHO, is the lack of statistics to back up a particular selection, and a lack of transparency in the selection process. Those are two things crying out to be addressed and fairly easily fixed. Like it or not, we live in a society that values merit. Our kids learn that early on.

The "True" Team Terminators are the laziness to back up a selection with some objective reason, and the hidden agendas / secret ballots. Let the coaches track their player's perfomance (ala Dorrance) and then let them publicly disclose their votes.