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Post by futbolislife on Feb 17, 2011 9:55:29 GMT -6
As many of our referees have stated, there is a bunch of training opportunity out there. The La State Referee Committee (SRC), in my opinion, has made tremendous strides in the past few years tacking the issue of training and the betterment of those referee skills. I will admit that these programs mostly touch a small percentage. Why? You cant force a horse to drink from the trough. Now many want to improve and we are continually seeking ways to give them opportunities. The door is open, they just need to walk through.
Is there an opportunity for non-referees to voice complaints or concerns. In club ball, there absolutely is. I get numerous emails all year round when club ball is being played. And I respond to every one. We are always open to suggestions. At every AGM, I have numerous conversations with coaches, admins about possible solutions. I can tell you Coachray is one who always wants to talk about these issues and I hope he would tell you that I always listen to his suggestions. We have gotten some good ones. The clubs and LSA have been extremely supportive of our plans and concepts. Every club we have approached with an opportunity to train referees at a tournament or club site has always welcomed it and done everything they could to support it.
The new LSA league being set up also gives us some opportunities for referee development and training that are still in the works and being discussed with LSA reps as that league develops.
Over the past year or two, the LSA system has allowed us to send emails to every referee in the state opening up new communications. Notices about ODP camps went to every referee. A facbook page for La referees is available for some discussions.
Shortly we will send an email advising referees of a training opportunity at the next summer AGM. A former FIFA referee, Kim Oberle, will be coming in to do a 6 hour session that is open to any and all referees at no cost. She is a wealth of information and a dynamic speaker. Any referee who misses this chance to hear her and meet her is indeed missing a rare opportunity. Her topics will include Professionalism, Foul Severity spectrum (what's constitutes a foul, what elevates a foul to misconduct) and AR skills (positioning, prioritizing focus, when to become involved, standard mechanics, etc). The SRC is really pleased she is coming in. For the referees reading this, put Saturday July 16 on your calendar (new Orleans). There is not one person I know who couldn't get something from her presentations. Personally, I'm looking forward to it.
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Post by dalglish on Feb 17, 2011 10:31:33 GMT -6
thanks for all the information - I hope all the academies and training work and the level of refereeing in this state improves
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Post by dalglish on Feb 17, 2011 10:45:04 GMT -6
futbolislife - you hit the nail on the head: programs are out there for refs to attend but nothing and no one forces the refs to attend - only the refs that want to get better will attend all these great events.
Is there a way to force all refs to attend?
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dulac
All-District
Posts: 204
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Post by dulac on Feb 17, 2011 10:51:04 GMT -6
thanks for all the information - I hope all the academies and training work and the level of refereeing in this state improves Again, another negative comment. Dalglish, do you have a positive, supportive bone in your body? We have WHO DAT good referees. You appear to have a chip on your shoulder.
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Post by Steven Gerrard on Feb 17, 2011 10:52:46 GMT -6
thanks for all the information - I hope all the academies and training work and the level of refereeing in this state improves But, why do you think the level of refereeing in the state needs improvement. I agree with futbolislife and others, referees can always use more training. Continuing education and evaluations are a good thing. I am not saying that we don't need it. But, I take it that you think that the level of refereeing in Louisiana is below some standard. What standard? Is it below the level of refereeing in other states? If so, on what do you base your opinion? Is it below the standard of play on the field? Is it below the standard of coaching? Again, if so, on what do you base your opinion? And, please tell me that it is more then just a parental viewpoint from sitting in the stands.
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Post by happyjack on Feb 17, 2011 11:16:24 GMT -6
futbolislife - you hit the nail on the head: programs are out there for refs to attend but nothing and no one forces the refs to attend - only the refs that want to get better will attend all these great events. Is there a way to force all refs to attend? Is there a way to force them to attend? No, many referee solely at their local club and have desire to advance or do higher level matches, so likely they would get nothing from this. The same could be said of the many grace 8 and 9 youth under 17. We have a neatly 40% turnover annually of young referees, and the most common reason they quit is abusive parents and fans. Daglizh, if you have valid suggestions for improving the level of officiating, please PM either me, futbolislife, or cardsinhand. We all sit on the SRC and would welcome any valid suggestion you may have. As FIL has stated, come to the LSA AGM and get involved. Whining on this board will not accomplish anything Thanks
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Post by dalglish on Feb 17, 2011 11:47:24 GMT -6
Compared to other states, including Texas, Georgia, North Carolina and Florida, just to mention a few, yes, I believe that many Louisiana refs are not up to par (that is not to say that we do not have good refs here in this state).
Dulac - you obviously do not read all my comments as I have said that the center in the Mt. Carmel v. West Monroe game did a very good job; I also said that I have seen a number of excellent refs in this state - so, get off your high horse and relax - you have your opinions and I have mine
every profession tries to improve: lawyers, accountants, doctors - everyone takes courses to get better; I just think our refs should too
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Post by eternalfire on Feb 17, 2011 12:17:35 GMT -6
geez, he got the refs in the same category as lawyers, accountants, and doctors. I didn't realize the refs were on the same scale as these professions!
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Post by happyjack on Feb 17, 2011 13:22:52 GMT -6
It would sure be nice if the fans and those posting here would also learn and improve. But apparently many are exempt from what they would like referees to do..
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Post by reddevil70737 on Feb 17, 2011 14:20:45 GMT -6
“At the LSA level, which has nothing to do with high school, we are conducting 2 referee academies this spring, and conducted another 2 this past fall. We are working hard to improve the knowledge and performance of the officials, and many of the ones you se in high school. Games are either mentors or participants in the academies.” happyjack
I believe the first ref Academy is Feb 26/27 @ Red Stick.
“The new LSA league being set up also gives us some opportunities for referee development and training that are still in the works and being discussed with LSA reps as that league develops.” futbolislife
I agree futbolislife. With the mandated increase in pay at the U11-U12 League Games I believe it will give that older experienced ref a chance to work with more of the younger refs.
I do believe we (LA) are taking steps into the right direction to improve our refs. After taking the ref class last year I think we could use more video examples to show the soon to be refs some of the laws of the game. You can get up and talk offside’s all day, but some people just really need to see it. I would love to get my hands on some video training for the young refs in my club. I found a few things, but it was all from the Stone Age.
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dulac
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Post by dulac on Feb 17, 2011 14:29:39 GMT -6
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dulac
All-District
Posts: 204
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Post by dulac on Feb 17, 2011 14:32:41 GMT -6
www.askasoccerreferee.com/?cat=19Another website with some great advice. Within the Offside section, there are a few websites (links) that demonstrate offside scenarios.
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Post by futbolislife on Feb 17, 2011 14:49:44 GMT -6
Let's all stay positive boys and girls. I personally am enjoying this discussion. Steven Gerrard, we have chatted before. Certainly, we usually agree. But to your point on standards, that's a loaded question. I can tell you I don't think the refereeing meets the standards that I personally would like to see met. But likely we are on par from top to bottom with every other state. Dalglish, I would disagree about the comparison of us to other states you mention. I think we are right there with them. If you go to those states and look at their referee corps, top to bottom, you'll see the same issues. Believe me, the R3 SRCs meet regular and discuss all these items. Our problems are the same nationwide. Now I will say this, those states have more top notch referees, but that is because of their numbers. They have 5 times more referees than we do. From a percentage standpoint, the numbers are virtually identical state to state. Our top referees are on par with the top referees from every state in R3. And those numbers bear out when it comes to selection of top refs at regionals.
I do think that coaching and player's tactics have passed most referees (not all). Most referees don't understand what is happening and why. The purpose, the tactic, etc. Referees need to listen to coaches and players. understand what they are being taught. Understand tactics. We expect our top referees to be able to discuss after a game formations, tactics, key players, individual match up issues, skill players, etc And while this sounds so simple, it's really not. It takes time to develop this. And referees need to be taught how to do this. They need to work with upper level referees who can discuss these issues and raise awareness (the academy does this quite well, I think)
In my opinion, we are not up to standards. I agree. I have traveled the state enough to feel justified in my opinion. I've seen enough to know there are some things going on that are just not up to par. And simple things. This is one reason we require every referee, every year to retake the test.
So let's admit there are problems, there are. And one bad decision makes all the good ones go for naught. No one remembers the good decisions. But they remember your last bad one. Let's discuss what can really be done to improve the officiating side. Got a real suggestion. Please, by all means, send it to me, cardsinhand, happyjack. In several areas, what we are ding is being noticed in R3. We have other states asking to do some of the things we do. And we do the same right back.
We have a coach that wants to do a session for referees on how players are taught to play above the waist so that referees can understand why young players react certain ways. In some cases, fouls are called that aren't called. Believe me, a referee session from a coach is really valuable. They are periodically done at regionals with success.
We want real input. But some things are just not possible. We cannot look at every referee in the state. Cant happen. We cant force anything that USSF wont allow. So the real trick is how to you get them to want to want to walk through the door and get better. If we could get them to come and ask what they need to do, the whole picture changes.
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Post by happyjack on Feb 17, 2011 15:35:43 GMT -6
I'd suggest that anyone interested stop by at the Red Stick tourney and inquire at the referee tent about the academy. We'd be happy to discuss it with you, as time allows. The more we can spread the word the more chances we have to include new officials in subsequent academies. We will have 2 national assesors, 4 state assessors, 1 national referee, and a number of state referees acting as instructors and mentors. An excellent learning opportunity for everyone involved.
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Post by oldhattrick3 on Feb 18, 2011 7:59:15 GMT -6
Well, every sport has this issue with complaints about unfairness in calling games. I don't have exact numbers on this, but I would say (from my experience) the average age of refs in soccer is significantly lower than other high school sports. The reason I point that out is that I think the one issue you may deal with in soccer, with younger refs, is maybe a maturity level at times. It is possibly more common for a younger ref to get a little more tick'd off at comments from a particular team, coach, player, fan and maybe take it out with a couple of questionable calls - However I would bank on that being totally the case - just a thought. Overall though, I do think it is ridiculous the post I see where fans / parents / players try to say that and official cost them the game because he obviously was calling one-sided. I don't think anyone steps on the pitch with the intention of purposely calling in favor of one team over the other. However I do think my thought is worth considering, that comments during the progress could get certain personality types to skew their view - and just a theory that its more common in younger refs than older.
I do think I few points need to be stressed to help improve the situation in soccer (not that it will take away the comments - just possibly help some):
- the ole saying "You kill more bees with honey" - you have to teach the refs coming in, especially the young ones, that it is NOT an authority trip to become a ref. Show due respect to the players and coaches and it will come around 2 fold when you do have to make a tough call. - you know in my ref'ing time, it always seem to help the hold complexion of the relationship between coaches / players and myself to at least acknowledge someone's anger toward a call or comment than to try to authoritatively shut them down. It seems the majority (and this is my opinion and observation) of refs in soccer would prefer to utilize the "authority approach" and tell a coach "That's enough", rather than simply acknowledge the view and agree to disagree.
Anyway, just some thoughts.
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Post by happyjack on Feb 18, 2011 9:12:32 GMT -6
Oldhattrick, surely you realize that soccer has few if any opportunities for a referee to stop a match to have a discussion with a coach about a call that was or wasn't made. The referee does not owe a coach an explanation for a call, and if the coach continues to harangue the referee, at some point the referee must exert authority over the coach before. It escalates to the point that the coach is told to leave. A converse thought is that a coach sees a young referee and assumes he does not have the experience to be in the game, and therefore maybe his attempts at mind games toward the referee will work. From the younge dresses I'm familiar with, one will be on the st Paul Lafayette match and another on Ben Franklin Westminster. Both are 25, both are very experienced, and both have been to youth nationals and both have been youth or young referee of the year in Louisiana. Age doesn't have much bearing in officiating, but experience and maturity does. When you get into the playoffs, assignors are putting the best officials in the middle, and age has nothing to do with it.
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Post by tonygalinto on Feb 18, 2011 13:04:25 GMT -6
Oldhattrick, surely you realize that soccer has few if any opportunities for a referee to stop a match to have a discussion with a coach about a call that was or wasn't made. The referee does not owe a coach an explanation for a call, and if the coach continues to harangue the referee, at some point the referee must exert authority over the coach before. It escalates to the point that the coach is told to leave. A converse thought is that a coach sees a young referee and assumes he does not have the experience to be in the game, and therefore maybe his attempts at mind games toward the referee will work. From the younge dresses I'm familiar with, one will be on the st Paul Lafayette match and another on Ben Franklin Westminster. Both are 25, both are very experienced, and both have been to youth nationals and both have been youth or young referee of the year in Louisiana. Age doesn't have much bearing in officiating, but experience and maturity does. When you get into the playoffs, assignors are putting the best officials in the middle, and age has nothing to do with it. You are spot on about experience and age. Most of the upper level young referees (25 or under) have been refereeing from age 14 or below. Most of these referees I would take over a 40 year old referee that has only been refereeing 2 or 3 years. Don't get me wrong 'there are older referees that are very good, can read the game and are able to be in the best position to make a call even though they aren't speed demons. The bottom line is all referees have their own style of officiating. What works for one will get another in big trouble. Some referees call games tighter than others but are consistent throughout. It has been my experience that referees that have played and refereed in upper level games tend to let more go than the ones who haven't played or refereed at that level. That works fine for men's open and higher level games but may not work that great at the HS level. The sad fact is that there are coaches that aren't going to be satisfied with any referee if he calls fouls against their team or doesn't call fouls for his team for what he may perceive (from 80 yards away) to be a foul. Any call you make will make 50% of the people unhappy.
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Post by happyjack on Feb 18, 2011 13:13:09 GMT -6
Tony, I once made a call that 100% of the people were unhappy with. I said the filed was not playable!!
Also once had a coach tell me I didn't respect him because of his age I told him age had nothing to do with it, I have norespect for anyone who yells at me and tells me I don't know what I'm doing.
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Post by oldhattrick3 on Feb 18, 2011 14:41:49 GMT -6
The referee does not owe a coach an explanation for a call, and if the coach continues to harangue the referee, at some point the referee must exert authority over the coach before. Believe me, I realize that trying to point out things to soccer refs is as hard as pulling a boat anchor uphill by hand. Your comment above I feel is the wrong attitude. Consideration goes a long way on both ends. I never told you to stop a match and explain anything to a coach. But to say that a referee does not owe a coach and explanation for a call is completely the wrong attitude and for me promotes a confrontational attitude. There are times that explanations can be given, and it doesn't take but 2 seconds while running past a coach to give a "positive" acknowlegement that you understand that he didn't agree with the call. Its an age ole thing that applies to everything in life - show respect, get respect. With your statement you are already starting off with an attitude. Although I used age, the key is the maturity of the official. The reason I referenced age, is typically 18-30 year olds on average show much less maturity as a whole (again before you mis-interpet, I am not saying that ALL 18-30 year olds are immature or have less maturity, I'm saying on average, especially males). There is no doubt with just reading the post you can tell the chip on the shoulder of the officials posting and the resentment of the players/parents and coaches. This is not saying who is right and who is wrong, what it is saying is you can choose to continue on with chip growing or you can make efforts to rid the chip and lower the confrontation. The choice is out there, I don't have the answer - but having been around soccer fields for several years, last several in La., there is a definite "air" to some of the refs I see step on the field that mimic your comment "The referee does not owe a coach an explanation for a call". Having been through the ref courses in La, I also noticed a tone, at least by my instructor (which was different from football and basketball) of more "they are the enemy", than we are providing a service. Just an observation.
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dulac
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Post by dulac on Feb 18, 2011 14:59:59 GMT -6
I love to ref. I approach every game as a professional, even at the U10 age. I hope all the coaches have come to know me as being very approachable. When possible, I will explain. Don't constantly yell at me and you will have my respect. Will I miss something? Most likely. Did I miss it on purpose. Heck no. But I strive to always be on my best game as we all should...but not all of us will.
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