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fouls
Mar 12, 2013 8:55:08 GMT -6
Post by Deleted on Mar 12, 2013 8:55:08 GMT -6
Okay, a question for some of the experts.
Why does the interpretation of what constitutes a 'foul' vary so much from ref to ref, league to league and at differing levels.
1. Why do refs allow much more contact say with hs games than, say club games? (Varying levels of play?)
2. As the players get older, refs generally allow much more 'jockeying'/use of the hands when challenging.
2. If two players are both using their arms to create either an advantage or disadvantage, what has to happen to warrant a foul being called?
Is there some sort of unwritten rule/protocol for what refs will allow...given the league or standard of play?
The refs that call Classic League games over in Dallas are known for letting a lot of physical play go on. (Much like the EPL is known for being a physical league.)
MLS is another prime example. A foul in MLS could equate to a caution or even sending off in say, Spain or Portugal.
Just curious as to why there is such a wide variance...
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p_malinich
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fouls
Mar 12, 2013 9:17:50 GMT -6
Post by p_malinich on Mar 12, 2013 9:17:50 GMT -6
I found that in the Jefferson Cup in Richmond, VA that there was a ton of full-arm extensions that were never called. My simplified knowledge has been shoulder-to-shoulder good, but full-arm extension bad. That was not the case this past weekend.
One speculation by a parent was that refs wanted to be invisible in showcase tourney and the college coaches wanted to see how both players and teams involved dealt with it. Made some sense to me, but any additional perspective would be great.
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Deleted
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fouls
Mar 12, 2013 9:49:12 GMT -6
Post by Deleted on Mar 12, 2013 9:49:12 GMT -6
I found that in the Jefferson Cup in Richmond, VA that there was a ton of full-arm extensions that were never called. My simplified knowledge has been shoulder-to-shoulder good, but full-arm extension bad. That was not the case this past weekend. One speculation by a parent was that refs wanted to be invisible in showcase tourney and the college coaches wanted to see how both players and teams involved dealt with it. Made some sense to me, but any additional perspective would be great. I think you'll find that, outside of La, a lot more physical play is allowed. Especially at higher levels. The college game in general is very physical. A lot of 'new' soccer parents tend to think this sport is much more 'safe' than it actually is. it ain't basketball.
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p_malinich
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fouls
Mar 12, 2013 10:07:08 GMT -6
Post by p_malinich on Mar 12, 2013 10:07:08 GMT -6
I found that in the Jefferson Cup in Richmond, VA that there was a ton of full-arm extensions that were never called. My simplified knowledge has been shoulder-to-shoulder good, but full-arm extension bad. That was not the case this past weekend. One speculation by a parent was that refs wanted to be invisible in showcase tourney and the college coaches wanted to see how both players and teams involved dealt with it. Made some sense to me, but any additional perspective would be great. I think you'll find that, outside of La, a lot more physical play is allowed. Especially at higher levels. The college game in general is very physical. A lot of 'new' soccer parents tend to think this sport is much more 'safe' than it actually is. it ain't basketball. A top-10 team (Cincinnati Cup Crew, I think) on an adjacent field looked like they had 10 Fullbacks on the pitch. Seems to validate physical play comment.
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fouls
Mar 12, 2013 19:28:56 GMT -6
Post by Deleted on Mar 12, 2013 19:28:56 GMT -6
I think you'll find that, outside of La, a lot more physical play is allowed. Especially at higher levels. The college game in general is very physical. A lot of 'new' soccer parents tend to think this sport is much more 'safe' than it actually is. it ain't basketball. A top-10 team (Cincinnati Cup Crew, I think) on an adjacent field looked like they had 10 Fullbacks on the pitch. Seems to validate physical play comment. Not sure I understand what you mean by 10 fullbacks?
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p_malinich
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fouls
Mar 12, 2013 20:24:52 GMT -6
Post by p_malinich on Mar 12, 2013 20:24:52 GMT -6
A top-10 team (Cincinnati Cup Crew, I think) on an adjacent field looked like they had 10 Fullbacks on the pitch. Seems to validate physical play comment. Not sure I understand what you mean by 10 fullbacks? Sorry. I was referring to American football-type fullbacks. Huge. Built for physical play.
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fouls
Mar 12, 2013 20:26:41 GMT -6
Post by happyjack on Mar 12, 2013 20:26:41 GMT -6
Soccer is nothing but a game of controlled violence....some famous English guy, can't recall who
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fouls
Mar 12, 2013 21:51:52 GMT -6
Post by time2retire on Mar 12, 2013 21:51:52 GMT -6
I found that in the Jefferson Cup in Richmond, VA that there was a ton of full-arm extensions that were never called. My simplified knowledge has been shoulder-to-shoulder good, but full-arm extension bad. That was not the case this past weekend. One speculation by a parent was that refs wanted to be invisible in showcase tourney and the college coaches wanted to see how both players and teams involved dealt with it. Made some sense to me, but any additional perspective would be great. I didn't know you was there!! Should have said hi.
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p_malinich
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fouls
Mar 12, 2013 22:21:27 GMT -6
Post by p_malinich on Mar 12, 2013 22:21:27 GMT -6
I found that in the Jefferson Cup in Richmond, VA that there was a ton of full-arm extensions that were never called. My simplified knowledge has been shoulder-to-shoulder good, but full-arm extension bad. That was not the case this past weekend. One speculation by a parent was that refs wanted to be invisible in showcase tourney and the college coaches wanted to see how both players and teams involved dealt with it. Made some sense to me, but any additional perspective would be great. I didn't know you was there!! Should have said hi. Were you parenting or reffing? Our team played at River City on Friday and Saturday. Then at West Creek on Sunday. There's a separate thread in the Club section.
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Deleted
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fouls
Mar 13, 2013 7:30:54 GMT -6
Post by Deleted on Mar 13, 2013 7:30:54 GMT -6
Not sure I understand what you mean by 10 fullbacks? Sorry. I was referring to American football-type fullbacks. Huge. Built for physical play. Got it. Herein lies one of the core problems with the American game. We tend to favor physique over technique and brains. In other words, coaches often take 'shortcuts' by picking the most physically mature players and THEN try to turn them into footballers. Which when we are talking about kids is an artificial selection criteria. Consequently when the result of the game takes precedence over teaching a more technical and tactical game, these 'athletes' are then forced to play within themselves. (Play only to their physical strengths...and deny them the opportunity to take measured risks via more technical play.) In short, develop the player's technical and tactical abilities and then focus on the physical. If they aren't footballers first...you can't reach the higher levels of the game...no matter the physical capabilities. As proof of this, just take a look at our national teams. How many American players are playing in the top leagues and club competitions? based on our sheer number of players...serious underachievement. There are a few of us who believe that, in spite of the state of youth soccer, there are players out there capable of reaching the highest levels. They just aren't being identified...again, due to our flawed system.
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fouls
Mar 13, 2013 13:03:55 GMT -6
Post by loJic on Mar 13, 2013 13:03:55 GMT -6
Okay, a question for some of the experts. Why does the interpretation of what constitutes a 'foul' vary so much from ref to ref, league to league and at differing levels. 1. Why do refs allow much more contact say with hs games than, say club games? (Varying levels of play?) 2. As the players get older, refs generally allow much more 'jockeying'/use of the hands when challenging. 2. If two players are both using their arms to create either an advantage or disadvantage, what has to happen to warrant a foul being called? Is there some sort of unwritten rule/protocol for what refs will allow...given the league or standard of play? The refs that call Classic League games over in Dallas are known for letting a lot of physical play go on. (Much like the EPL is known for being a physical league.) MLS is another prime example. A foul in MLS could equate to a caution or even sending off in say, Spain or Portugal. Just curious as to why there is such a wide variance... Great questions. I think the style of play is where it all stems from. England is a fast paste get it forward game with occasional creative play. Spain, Portugal and italy are slower paced more possession style with a lot of creative play and also smaller players. Germany seems to have combined both in to their league within the last 10 years or so. Brazil is actually quite physical for being an area where a lot of creative play comes from. MLS is a dumb downed version of the premier league, sort of like the npower Championship's slower, less talented younger brother. I, personally, love the physical side of the game. But the overall perception in America is that soccer is a "wimpy" sport and parents do not expect to see little johnny get boxed out like he's in the post when trying to steal a ball. Even some players who played the game in the US think that. Case and point. I play both soccer and basketball. I definitely feel a lot more sore after leaving my bball games due to the extreme physicality it brings, grant it I play in a more competitive basketball league than soccer due to it being the sport I'm far better at. Where as in soccer I have been called a dirty player for my, i'll admit, excessive shoulder bumps or jersey tugs and even simple body shielding. I don't challenge headers that hard these days. Still have to go to work the next day. I promise this hall. If and when I become a ref I'll make sure I see blood before calling a foul......lol......kidding but I'll probably be more lenient towards physical play. Of course I say this now.
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Deleted
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fouls
Mar 14, 2013 6:46:42 GMT -6
Post by Deleted on Mar 14, 2013 6:46:42 GMT -6
Okay, a question for some of the experts. Why does the interpretation of what constitutes a 'foul' vary so much from ref to ref, league to league and at differing levels. 1. Why do refs allow much more contact say with hs games than, say club games? (Varying levels of play?) 2. As the players get older, refs generally allow much more 'jockeying'/use of the hands when challenging. 2. If two players are both using their arms to create either an advantage or disadvantage, what has to happen to warrant a foul being called? Is there some sort of unwritten rule/protocol for what refs will allow...given the league or standard of play? The refs that call Classic League games over in Dallas are known for letting a lot of physical play go on. (Much like the EPL is known for being a physical league.) MLS is another prime example. A foul in MLS could equate to a caution or even sending off in say, Spain or Portugal. Just curious as to why there is such a wide variance... Great questions. I think the style of play is where it all stems from. England is a fast paste get it forward game with occasional creative play. Spain, Portugal and italy are slower paced more possession style with a lot of creative play and also smaller players. Germany seems to have combined both in to their league within the last 10 years or so. Brazil is actually quite physical for being an area where a lot of creative play comes from. MLS is a dumb downed version of the premier league, sort of like the npower Championship's slower, less talented younger brother. I, personally, love the physical side of the game. But the overall perception in America is that soccer is a "wimpy" sport and parents do not expect to see little johnny get boxed out like he's in the post when trying to steal a ball. Even some players who played the game in the US think that. Case and point. I play both soccer and basketball. I definitely feel a lot more sore after leaving my bball games due to the extreme physicality it brings, grant it I play in a more competitive basketball league than soccer due to it being the sport I'm far better at. Where as in soccer I have been called a dirty player for my, i'll admit, excessive shoulder bumps or jersey tugs and even simple body shielding. I don't challenge headers that hard these days. Still have to go to work the next day. I promise this hall. If and when I become a ref I'll make sure I see blood before calling a foul......lol......kidding but I'll probably be more lenient towards physical play. Of course I say this now. I have no issues with the physicality of the game. However, at the professional levels there is a trend that seems to be moving further away from the 'old' English style. Bookable offenses now wouldn't even be fouls in most cases 10-15 years ago. I played basketball. yeah, jockeying on the posts can be physical. But it doesn't compare to someone running full speed at you going for a 50/50 ball or a tackle. lojic, you sound like my kind of future ref!
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Post by futbolislife on Mar 14, 2013 7:23:50 GMT -6
Also consider this. The game belongs to the players and spectators, not the referee. The referee is supposed to keep it "fair". At higher levels, the players WANT to play physical. If they want this, the referee needs to, and should be aware that they do not make the game about what the referee expects. The referee should not be working a game to their own expectations, but those of the players. And one thing always remains, the game needs to be played with flow. The Laws dictate not to call triflinf fouls. The key here is that what is trifling at U11 is very different than trifling at the professional levels. For referees, it is understanding that concept and managing player expectations on how that game, on that day, is to be played, all within the spirit of the Laws.
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Post by time2retire on Mar 14, 2013 10:04:55 GMT -6
I worked half the day and mentored the other half. I just don't know when to quit.
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fouls
Mar 14, 2013 12:13:18 GMT -6
Post by pOkLE on Mar 14, 2013 12:13:18 GMT -6
Also consider this. The game belongs to the players and spectators, not the referee. The referee is supposed to keep it "fair". At higher levels, the players WANT to play physical. If they want this, the referee needs to, and should be aware that they do not make the game about what the referee expects. The referee should not be working a game to their own expectations, but those of the players. And one thing always remains, the game needs to be played with flow. The Laws dictate not to call triflinf fouls. The key here is that what is trifling at U11 is very different than trifling at the professional levels. For referees, it is understanding that concept and managing player expectations on how that game, on that day, is to be played, all within the spirit of the Laws. I'll add that it's just a subjective, personal experience for the referee. His/her understanding of the game and perception of what "needs" to be called is based on individual experience (reffing, playing, observing, and otherwise). I bet most of the refs I/we see don't have much playing experience [as is the same for most parents -- which leads to great (often times hilarious) confrontations]. From my side of the field (as a player/coach), this lack of playing experience is the most difficult aspect to deal with ... but it's not something that is required to be a quality referee (just takes more time, I think). More experience (playing, reffing, observing, etc) leads to better called games. I would guess that referees you see in other states may have more experience or the games involved are of such quality that the referee pool for potential refs is small (thus you see more experienced refs more regularly than in LA).
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fouls
Mar 14, 2013 18:06:22 GMT -6
Post by happyjack on Mar 14, 2013 18:06:22 GMT -6
Interesting that Louisiana referees are often thought of as poor officials compared to other states. Take a look at the accomplishments of Louisiana referees at regionals the past few years...our officials are performing at higher levels and being recognized, much more than states with much larger pools of officials. Now, how we get that level of talent through the younger referees is a challenge we are working on, with field trainers, academies, ODP, RPL, and other training sessions. Bottom line is that referees have to want to get better and seek out those opportunities
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fouls
Mar 15, 2013 11:55:48 GMT -6
via mobile
Post by upper90 on Mar 15, 2013 11:55:48 GMT -6
Happy,
If you think referees in Louisiana are doing a great job, then you're delusional.
Yes, there are a some good referees. This past weekend at Adult State Cup, I had one of the best referees that I've ever had. But guys like him are a dime a dozen, ESPECIALLY in LA.
I've seen a lot of referees from a bunch of different locations. In MY experience, referees that I've had from LA are towards the bottom of that list.
Just an opinion.
Being a referee yourself, I understand that you want to back your guys up. I get it. But please, put personal feelings aside and truly assess the talent that we have.
On top of the good referee I had this past weekend, I had 2 absolutely pitiful referees. I could probably count the good referees in LA on my hands and feet.
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fouls
Mar 15, 2013 13:53:26 GMT -6
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Post by cardsinhand on Mar 15, 2013 13:53:26 GMT -6
Happy, If you think referees in Louisiana are doing a great job, then you're delusional. Yes, there are a some good referees. This past weekend at Adult State Cup, I had one of the best referees that I've ever had. I'm guessing it wasn't the referee at noon on Sunday, huh? Sorry couldn't help myself.
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fouls
Mar 15, 2013 14:11:30 GMT -6
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Post by upper90 on Mar 15, 2013 14:11:30 GMT -6
Um.... Not quite.
Cards, you were assessing right? I thought that was you, but wasn't 100%. You had a conversation with one of my buddies from Lake Charles on Saturday, and the whole time I was trying to see if I could remember if it was you or not. It's been a long time (almost 6 years since you refereed me last).
The guy on Sunday just couldn't get a feel. I'm not really sure what his deal was. At one point, our team was deserving of a red card off of a nasty slide tackle, and I think our guy barely got a yellow. If I'm calling fouls against my own team, something isn't right.
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fouls
Mar 15, 2013 21:37:53 GMT -6
Post by time2retire on Mar 15, 2013 21:37:53 GMT -6
Pretty simple. Players will hardly recognize good officiating when they have it. Referees (and administrators) will stick up for the guys in their state.
But about Louisiana, I can tell you that the SRC has taken some very positive steps in the past few years to bring Louisiana referees to the forefront. The addition and continuation of its developmental group is one...the additional testing for State Cup is another.
It is very unfair to compare Louisiana to a state like Maryland, where games from rec up through professional are available in a 25 mile radius from DC. The demand is there that provides many different levels of the game. Louisiana just doesn't have that, and unfortunately, its referees are not exposed to those many levels of the game without traveling significant distances. Some don't want to do that, and some can't do it.
Be thankful that the Louisiana SRC actually cares enough to have a developmental program for its referees. Some don't. Imagine what it is like in those states.
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