|
Post by beauchenecoach on Dec 10, 2013 22:21:18 GMT -6
33. Amend Section 18-Soccer, by amending Rules 18.3.1, 18.3.1, 18.4.2. 18.4.5, 18.5.1, 18.5.6, 18.5.7, 18.5.8, 18.5.9, 18.5.10 and adding 18.5.11, Pages 114 through 116 of the 2013-14 LHSAA Bylaws, to be worded as follows:
18.3.1 Effective with the 2015-16 season, boys’ schools shall be divided into three equal or near equal divisions. Soccer divisions shall be based on a school’s October 1 enrollment that is certified to the LHSAA under the guidelines of Article 8.3 of the Constitution-Enrollment Calculation. Counting to achieve equal thirds shall begin with the lowest and end with highest soccer school enrollment. Schools with equal enrollment that form the dividing line shall play in the lower division. A school may not participate in a division below that mandated by its enrollment. The LHSAA shall district soccer schools in each division.
18.3.1 Boys’ schools playing soccer shall be divided into three divisions. All 5A classified teams shall be in Division I. All 4A classified teams shall be in Division II. All other teams (Classes 3A, 2A, 1A, B and C) shall be in Division III.
Districts shall be set up for each division. Division I shall play for a state championship. Division II shall play for a state championship. At the end of the season, Division III shall be divided into three separate divisions for the state championships. All Class 3A schools shall play for a state championship (Division III-A); all Class 2A schools shall play for a championship (III-B); and all Classes 1A, B, and C schools together (Division III-C) shall play for one state championship. This will be effective for the 2013-14 season.
18.3.2 Effective with the 2015-16 season, girls’ schools shall be divided into three equal or near equal divisions. Soccer divisions shall be based on a school’s October 1 enrollment that is certified to the LHSAA under the guidelines of Article 8.3 of the Constitution-Enrollment Calculation. Counting to achieve equal thirds shall begin with the lowest and end with highest soccer school enrollment. Schools with equal enrollment that form the dividing line shall play in the lower division. A school may not participate in a division below that mandated by its enrollment. The LHSAA shall district soccer schools in each division.
Items Pertaining to the By-Laws
18.3.2 Girls’ schools playing soccer shall be divided into three divisions. All 5A classified teams shall be in Division I. All 4A classified teams shall be in Division II. All other teams (Classes 3A, 2A, 1A, B and C) shall be in Division III.
Districts shall be set up for each division. Division I shall play for a state championship. Division II shall play for a state championship. At the end of the season, Division III shall be divided into three separate divisions for the state championships. All Class 3A schools shall play for a state championship (Division III-A); all Class 2A schools shall play for a championship (III-B); and all Classes 1A, B, and C schools together (Division III-C) shall play for one state championship. This will be effective for the 2013-14 season.
18.4.2 For Divisions I and II teams, each district shall determine its own method of selecting its first and second place teams. Division III districts do not need to distinguish first and second-place finishers.
18.4.5 All non-qualifiers must report to be considered for a wildcard berth. Failure of a non-qualifier to report by 10:00 p.m. on the deadline cited in Rule 18.1, Important Dates, for naming district representatives, shall result in the team not being considered for a wildcard berth. All Division III schools shall declare if they will participate in the playoffs.
18.5.1 Wildcard teams shall be allotted in each division as follows:
Items Pertaining to the By-Laws
18.5.6 The following criteria (in order) shall be used to select wildcard teams for state playoffs for Divisions I and II only: 1. Non-Automatic Qualifying district teams with the best won-loss percentage records in the same division, including district and non-district games, but excluding district playoff games, shall be selected in descending order until all wildcard positions are filled on the bracket. 2. If application of the first criterion creates a tie, the team with the best overall won-loss percentage record against teams in all divisions, including district and non-district games, but excluding district playoff games, shall be the wildcard team. 3. If application of the second criterion creates a tie, the team with the best won-loss percentage record in district play, excluding district playoff games, shall be the wildcard team. 4. If a tie still exists after applying 1 through 3 above, the wildcard team(s) shall be selected by a draw conducted in the Executive Director’s office by the Executive Director and witnessed by at least one Assistant Executive Director and a principal, athletic director or head coach whose school is not involved in the tie.
18.5.7 In Divisions I and III, 32 teams shall qualify for the state playoffs. In Division II, 24 teams shall qualify for the state playoffs. In Division III-A (Class 3A schools), all teams shall qualify for the state playoffs. In Division III-B (Class 2A schools), all teams shall qualify for the state playoffs. In Division III-C (Classes 1A, B, and C), all teams shall qualify for the state playoffs.
18.5.8 Once the 32 teams in Division I, and III and the 24 teams in Division II and the teams in Division III have qualified for the playoffs, the head coach of each team in each division will seed the respective teams in their division. The 32 head coaches in Division I, and III and the 24 head coaches in Division II and all the coaches in Division III will seed their divisions on the dates listed in Rule 18.1, Important Dates, in this section.
18.5.9 Each coach will receive an information sheet containing the teams in their class that are to be placed on the bracket. The information will include the team’s district finish, overall record, and district record. The coaches will rank the teams in their respective divisions, 1-31 or 1-23 (one being considered the best team in the state. For Divisions III-A, III-B, and III-C, the coaches will rank 1 - one less than the total number of schools in the playoffs. Each coach will leave their respective team out of the ranking.
18.5.10 Head coaches will have a time frame between 11:00 a.m. and 1:00 p.m. to submit their ranking form to the LHSAA via email from the principal’s office. After 1:00 p.m., the ranking sheets shall not be accepted by the LHSAA office. Once the ranking emails are received, the points will be added up and the 32 and 24 appropriate number of teams for each division will be placed on the bracket according to their ranking.
18.5.11 The teams in Divisions III-A, III-B, and III-C shall have brackets set up to enable all teams to participate with the appropriate number of byes to facilitate the playoff process.
Colleen Caillet Catholic High School – Pointe Coupee
34. Amend Section 18-Soccer, by amending Rule 18.3.4, Page 114 of the 2013-14 LHSAA Bylaws, to be worded as follows:
18.3.4 Per NFHS Rules, in a varsity game, the home team shall ensure that the opposing team wears jerseys of contrasting colors. A necessitated jersey change, therefore, shall be by the home team. The home team in all soccer matches must wear “WHITE” Jerseys and “SOLID WHITE” socks. Failure to adhere to this rule will result in the HEAD COACH of the violating team being assessed a YELLOW CARD to start the match. In addition, the school shall be fined $50 per game not to exceed $250 per season.
Executive Committee
Items Pertaining to the By-Laws
35. Amend Section 18-Soccer, by amending Rules 18.3.10, 18.3.11, 18.3.12 and adding 18.3.13, Page 114 of the 2013-14 LHSAA Bylaws, to be worded as follows:
18.3.10 Tie-breaker Criteria-Regular Season (Non-district) 1. Opposing coaches shall mutually agree prior to the start of the contest if they wish to use the tie breaker. If one coach does not agree, the tie-breaker rule shall not be used, and the contest shall end in a tie. 2. If a non-district match ends in a tie and both coaches agreed prior to the match to play overtime, a 10 minute overtime period shall be played. If the match is still tied, a second 10-minute overtime period shall be played; if the match is still tied, the match will go to penalty kicks (shootout) until a winner is determined. 1. For all regular season matches, including district matches that end in a tie at the finish of regulation play there shall be no overtime and each team shall receive a tie on their official record.
18.3.11 Tie-breaker Criteria (District) 1. The tie-breaker rule shall be used for all district contests. 2. If a district match ends in a tie, a 10-minute overtime period shall be played. If the match is still tied, a second 10-minute overtime period shall be played; if the match is still tied, the match will go to penalty kicks (shootout) until a winner is determined. 1. If a district decides to use overtime and/or NFHS penalty kicks (shootout) to break a tie in the district standings for district reporting purposes only, it shall be communicated to the game officials prior to the match. The overtime shall be played as determined in the respective by-laws of each district in dealing with tie-breakers in district standings.
18.3.12 Tie-breaker Criteria-Invitational Tournaments and State Playoffs 1. The LHSAA has adopted the tournament progression tie-game procedure as outlined in the NFHS Soccer Rules, Nos. 1-5. Number 6 was not adopted as the LHSAA does not recognize co-champions. 1. A tournament or playoff contest that has been suspended because of inclement weather, darkness, or mechanical problems shall be resumed from the point of interruption. 2. For all invitational tournament matches during the regular season that end in a tie at the finish of regulation play, there shall be no overtime and each team shall receive a tie on their official record. 3. If a tiebreaker is needed to determine which team shall move to the next round of a tournament, the tournament shall use its own discretion to decide advancement. 18.3.13 Tie-breaker Criteria-Invitational Tournaments and State Playoffs 1. For the state playoffs, the LHSAA has adopted the tournament progression tie-game procedure as outlined in the NFHS Soccer Rules, numbers 1-5. Number 6 was not adopted as the LHSAA does not recognize co-champions. 2. A tournament or playoff contest that has been suspended because of inclement weather, darkness, or mechanical problems shall be resumed from the point of interruption.
Ted Nixon St. Louis High School
Keith James Beau Chene High School
Mike Boyer Teurlings Catholic High School
Items Pertaining to the By-Laws
36. Amend Section 18-Soccer, by amending Rule 18.5 and adding Rule 18.6 and renumbering subsequent rules, Pages 115 and 116 of the 2013-14 LHSAA Bylaws, to be worded as follows:
18.5 WILDCARD PROGRAM
18.5.1 The 32 highest seeded teams shall be placed on the brackets of each division.
18.5.2 Wildcard teams shall be allotted in each division as follows:
18.5.3 Criteria for Wildcard Selection 1. Only the teams certified as first a place district representatives shall automatically qualify for the state playoffs. If a district championship is tied, all tied teams shall share the championship honors and shall qualify for the state playoffs from that district. 2. The remainder of the byes on the bracket shall be filled with wildcard teams, teams that did not automatically qualify, by placing them on the bracket starting with the highest power ranking and continuing in descending order.
18.5.4 Wildcard Selection Committee - After the established deadline for reporting teams for playoff competition, schools shall have from 8:00 a.m. through 12:00 noon on the day following the deadline to review, appeal, or dispute the school’s won-loss record and/or power rankings which shall be posted on the LHSAA website. An appeal request to correct a school’s won-loss record and/or to dispute the power ranking of an individual school must be submitted in writing by the principal by the 12:00 noon deadline. After 12:00 noon, when all requests, appeals, and disputes have been addressed, the official brackets shall be posted. Once the brackets are posted on the LHSAA website, the plan becomes final and no changes shall be made.
18.5.5 Determining Power Rating: 1. The power rating for each school shall be determined as follows: Result of Contest Add: Win (5 points) Opponents’ Wins (100%) Loss (0 points) Opponents’ Wins (50%) Tie (2.5 points) Opponents’ Wins (75%) *a tie will be considered .5 of a win and .5 of a loss *a non-district game that is tied after regulation shall be considered a tie if the LHSAA tie-breaking criteria is not used to decide the game 2. A school’s power rating shall be the total power points of games played divided by the number of total games played during the regular season. Refer to the LHSAA website for an example of how the power rating is determined. 3. Contests played against out of state opponents, sub-varsity opponents and district playoff (tiebreaker) games shall not count in determining a school’s power rating.
Items Pertaining to the By-Laws
18.6.1 All teams shall be seeded 1-32 according to their power ranking. 18.6.2 All teams that automatically qualify for the playoffs and those teams selected as wildcard teams shall be seeded in each division.
18.6.3 Schools that failed to play at least 15 games during the regular season, including district play and invitational tournament play, shall be ranked separately using the same ranking system used to rank schools that played at least 15 games or more during the regular season. These schools shall be ranked at the bottom of the bracket and seeded accordingly until all the remaining positions on the brackets are filled.
18.6.4 Tie breaking procedures to be used when two or more schools have the same power rating: 1. If two schools are tied and played each other during the season, the school that won the most games against the other school shall be the higher seeded team. 2. If after applying the first criterion and the tie is not broken or if the two schools did not play each other during the season, or if there are more than two schools involved in a tie, the tie shall be broken by applying class play percentage (schools that were played in the individual school’s classification). The school with the higher percentage shall be the higher seeded team. 3. If after applying the second criterion and the tie is not broken, the school with the highest won-loss percent in division play shall be the higher seeded team. 4. If after applying the third criterion and the tie is not broken, the school with the highest won-loss percentage in overall regular season play shall be the higher seeded team. 5. If a tie still remains, the higher seeded team shall be determined by having a “draw” conducted in the LHSAA office by the soccer seeding committee.
Ted Nixon St. Louis High School
Keith James Beau Chene High School
|
|
p_malinich
Data Expert
www.elevenlions.com
Posts: 4,201
|
Post by p_malinich on Dec 10, 2013 22:31:55 GMT -6
33. Amend Section 18-Soccer, by amending Rules 18.3.1, 18.3.1, 18.4.2. 18.4.5, 18.5.1, 18.5.6, 18.5.7, 18.5.8, 18.5.9, 18.5.10 and adding 18.5.11, Pages 114 through 116 of the 2013-14 LHSAA Bylaws, to be worded as follows: 18.3.1 Boys’ schools playing soccer shall be divided into three divisions. All 5A classified teams shall be in Division I. All 4A classified teams shall be in Division II. All other teams (Classes 3A, 2A, 1A, B and C) shall be in Division III. Districts shall be set up for each division. Division I shall play for a state championship. Division II shall play for a state championship. At the end of the season, Division III shall be divided into three separate divisions for the state championships. All Class 3A schools shall play for a state championship (Division III-A); all Class 2A schools shall play for a championship (III-B); and all Classes 1A, B, and C schools together (Division III-C) shall play for one state championship. This will be effective for the 2013-14 season. Is that 2013-14 part right at the end of that paragraph? Does that mean that there will be 5 State Championship games THIS year in February if this amendment passes in January? If so, where can we see the school listing from October 1?
|
|
|
Post by beauchenecoach on Dec 10, 2013 22:37:57 GMT -6
The first of the three is by Catholic PC... very interesting! WOuld help grow sport in smaller schools. I'm very intrigued by this proposal! I have no issues with it... sure it may be give everyone a title... but what do you call what football is doing right now? 9 state champs?
The last 2 are the infamous ones... elimination of overtime and PK shootouts as part of a game of record in regular season and allowing for them to be used as district by laws for tiebreakers in standings... but each team gets a Draw on record of a tied game after regulation. INCLUDING ALL TOURNAMENTS!! The last one uses the second one in it's formula as power ratings are proposed with the improved formula over last years and is expected to pass easily with LHSAA behind it.
Couldn't get the wildcard team charts inserted into the first proposal and last proposal on this... don't have time to do it from scratch.
|
|
p_malinich
Data Expert
www.elevenlions.com
Posts: 4,201
|
Post by p_malinich on Dec 10, 2013 22:57:04 GMT -6
The first of the three is by Catholic PC... very interesting! WOuld help grow sport in smaller schools. I'm very intrigued by this proposal! I have no issues with it... sure it may be give everyone a title... but what do you call what football is doing right now? 9 state champs? The last 2 are the infamous ones... elimination of overtime and PK shootouts as part of a game of record in regular season and allowing for them to be used as district by laws for tiebreakers in standings... but each team gets a Draw on record of a tied game after regulation. INCLUDING ALL TOURNAMENTS!! The last one uses the second one in it's formula as power ratings are proposed with the improved formula over last years and is expected to pass easily with LHSAA behind it. Couldn't get the wildcard team charts inserted into the first proposal and last proposal on this... don't have time to do it from scratch. But it could take effect this year??
|
|
usfgk
Data Expert
Posts: 495
|
Post by usfgk on Dec 10, 2013 23:07:33 GMT -6
18.5.7 In Divisions I and III, 32 teams shall qualify for the state playoffs. In Division II, 24 teams shall qualify for the state playoffs. In Division III-A (Class 3A schools), all teams shall qualify for the state playoffs. In Division III-B (Class 2A schools), all teams shall qualify for the state playoffs. In Division III-C (Classes 1A, B, and C), all teams shall qualify for the state playoffs.
Am I missing something...does this mean that everyone in D III makes the playoffs?
|
|
|
Post by beauchenecoach on Dec 11, 2013 0:15:59 GMT -6
I'm pretty sure that has to be a typo... It can't take place this year. It will have to be amended.
And yes, it appears that all Div III teams would make it into their respective classifications playoff bracket.
|
|
|
Post by methuselah on Dec 11, 2013 6:11:39 GMT -6
That first proposal looks like it proposes both dividing the teams into "3 equal or near equal divisions" even specifying how schools with equal enrollment on a borderline get assigned. Butt the proposal also seems to divide them based on the 5A, 4A and then 3A,2A,1A,B,C split like is done now.
Not sure what they're actually trying to do here.
|
|
|
Post by kevin on Dec 11, 2013 7:10:24 GMT -6
You think the tiny D3 schools are going to want to risk a four-hour bus ride across the state for a first round playoff game? I can buy the logic of how separate championships might help grow the sport, but do we need every single D3 school making the playoffs?
Why aren't we fighting harder to get rid of this stupid rule? Why back the rule up with fines? I realize that most of the damage has been done at this point (schools have unnecessarily spent money on ugly all-white uniforms), but this is a stupid rule and the fewer teeth it has, the better. If the LHSAA doesn't want to buck the NFHS's stupid (and possibly corrupt) rule, so be it. But let's not help them.
I have no issues with #2 and #3. But if there are weather issues, do we expect teams that have traveled for a tournament to stick around to finish a match? That may be fine for the state playoffs, but for a November/December tournament that's just silly.
|
|
|
Post by beauchenecoach on Dec 11, 2013 7:36:00 GMT -6
You think the tiny D3 schools are going to want to risk a four-hour bus ride across the state for a first round playoff game? I can buy the logic of how separate championships might help grow the sport, but do we need every single D3 school making the playoffs? Why aren't we fighting harder to get rid of this stupid rule? Why back the rule up with fines? I realize that most of the damage has been done at this point (schools have unnecessarily spent money on ugly all-white uniforms), but this is a stupid rule and the fewer teeth it has, the better. If the LHSAA doesn't want to buck the NFHS's stupid (and possibly corrupt) rule, so be it. But let's not help them. Also I have no issues with #2 and #3. But if there are weather issues, do we expect teams that have traveled for a tournament to stick around to finish a match? That may be fine for the state playoffs, but for a November/December tournament that's just silly. Agree with almost everything you said until the tournament part... Not sure what you are talking about, but nothing changed in that section dealing with weather issues... It's just a recopy of the entire section with changes.... But all tournament matches and eventual decisions of tournaments fall in the hands of the tournament heads, park/field administrators and refs... If tournament is canceled halfway through, a winner is still named (most likely by FIFA points and tiebreakers). also to add to the white uniform rule amendment... That proposal is being proposed by the executive council... Hopefully it does go down. I would like to see the other three passed. I also think you meant you had no issues with the last two and not #2 and #3 as the second one is the white uniform rule.
|
|
|
Post by kevin on Dec 11, 2013 7:48:13 GMT -6
My mistake--there's a different section (18.3.7) that deals with a match (other than a state playoff) being suspended, then there's the section about tiebreakers. A tournament match in the 2nd half could be declared finished (if either team has a lead) rather than suspended.
|
|
p_malinich
Data Expert
www.elevenlions.com
Posts: 4,201
|
Post by p_malinich on Dec 11, 2013 7:49:31 GMT -6
Conceptually, the 5 state championships MIGHT have some value in building the sport. Logistically, I'm confused by the proposal. I'm a numbers guy (in case you haven't figured that out) so here's what I think is being said.
On the boys side, I show 153 schools, including those that aren't competing for District honors. If I read it correctly, we would have 3 divisions during year. That would be 51 schools in each division. That's fine. But the path to the 5 State Championships is radically different
* I = 51 schools --- 32 qualify for playoffs & compete for State Championship * II = 51 schools --- 24 (why less?) qualify for playoffs & compete for State Championship * III = 51 schools *** 3A = 17 schools - all compete for a State Championship *** 2A = 17 schools - all compete for a State Championship *** 1A = 17 schools - all compete for a State Championship
If the goal is to create opportunities for everyone to have a shot at a Championship, then those schools that are slightly too big to make the cutoff to be in the 51 smallest schools are going to feel ripped off. And what about the 20 DI schools watching nearly everyone else compete in playoffs.
The proposal as is suggests that the season means nothing for the smaller schools. Maybe it doesn't. But going to a field of 16 (17) without the season giving any weight to it seems to dilute the hunt for the Championship. A field of 16 could easily go to a Copa format and have the playoffs done in one weekend or maybe two. I guess that's one alternative.
Another alternative, assuming we want 5 State Champions (??), would be to go to 5 tiers of 30 teams all year long and put 16 or 24 into the playoffs from each tier.
The proposal.... Conceptually? Maybe. Implementation? Still needs work.
|
|
|
Post by coach522 on Dec 11, 2013 7:52:19 GMT -6
The uniform issue is dead as far as I am concerned! We spent almost $1000 on new whites at Broadmoor because the LHSAA brass would not go against the NFHS, which it has done on other issues over the years. Might have cost us our soccer program within the next couple of years as we become more inner-city the support from the parents and community are not here and that money could have been used on new goals at school. Instead, we are playing at public parks where we cannot charge a gate.
The dates have to be a typo as the rule is set for 2015-16.
|
|
p_malinich
Data Expert
www.elevenlions.com
Posts: 4,201
|
Post by p_malinich on Dec 11, 2013 8:00:04 GMT -6
Why aren't we fighting harder to get rid of this stupid rule? Why back the rule up with fines? I realize that most of the damage has been done at this point (schools have unnecessarily spent money on ugly all-white uniforms), but this is a stupid rule and the fewer teeth it has, the better. If the LHSAA doesn't want to buck the NFHS's stupid (and possibly corrupt) rule, so be it. But let's not help them. Totally agree with Kevin. Why give any weight to it? And, yesterday, when I followed Scott's link on another issue, I found a comparison of rules done by NISOA (a soccer officials organization). They compare the rules (Aug 2013) side-by-side: Attachment DeletedOn page 7, they describe uniforms for NFHS as: "Home team – white or light jerseys and stockings; visitors, dark jerseys and stockings. If (apparel is) worn under shorts, all on team must be alike & of similar length and solid color, If under jersey, all alike, similar length & of a solid color. Both socks must be of a single dominant color, If tape is applied over sock, it must be same color as that part of sock."* Only white doesn't seem to be an issue (mentions it can be light) * No mention of solid for jerseys * Socks are a single dominant color - again, not solid, but dominant I know that those aren't the rules, but this is the NISOA interpretation of what's important as it lays it side-by-side with NCAA and FIFA. NFHS is definitely the strictest of the 3.
|
|
|
Post by methuselah on Dec 11, 2013 11:10:37 GMT -6
The uniform issue is dead as far as I am concerned! We spent almost $1000 on new whites at Broadmoor because the LHSAA brass would not go against the NFHS, which it has done on other issues over the years. Might have cost us our soccer program within the next couple of years as we become more inner-city the support from the parents and community are not here and that money could have been used on new goals at school. Instead, we are playing at public parks where we cannot charge a gate. The dates have to be a typo as the rule is set for 2015-16. If the rule results in the loss of schools like Broadmoor to soccer that would be a damned shame. In my opinion, public schools , including those in the city like Broadmoor as well as those in rural areas like St. Amant and Destrehan are what is going to decide whether soccer truly becomes a mainstream sport in the country at the high school and onward level (I think the rec programs for kids are doing great in a lot of areas). Same thing with rules like you can't practice with your school team at certain points in the year but you can play with club teams in the fall and spring. That one never made sense to me. Back to uniforms - I agree with pretty much everyone who has voiced an opinion that it's a ridiculous rule. Heck, I wouldn't blame teams for going the old "get some nice plain shirts from either a local sporting goods store, a big Academy type store or heck a big box department store, bring them to a local place that applies numbers and volia get "uniform" shirts for $10 a pop or less" But as far as I can see, looks like the refs are being very reasonable. Heck, at the COPA, due to the cold weather, there was a glorious profusion of different types of long undershirts, long underpants, wool cap, etc. in a lot of different colors and patterns and no stink was raised by anyone as far as I can see. Same with the regular season so far. Are you sure you can't charge a gate at the public parks? I'm pretty sure I've seen it done where a parent walks around to the spectators and collects. Maybe on a volunteer basis or something? And the tourneys do it - but that may be because the whole park is being used for the tourney during those days.
|
|
|
Post by tigerdawg on Dec 11, 2013 11:41:48 GMT -6
Just curious.. would anyone have the break down of schools that would be participating in the 3 different divisions for Division III if it were to happen this year?
|
|
|
Post by newosoccerfan on Dec 11, 2013 12:41:52 GMT -6
Love the idea of 5 Champions! I have been posting here about growing the sport by making DIII more competitive through more Divisions. More Championships does the same thing.
How can schools of up to approximately 220 coeds (1A) can compete with schools of up to approximately 640 (3A) coeds? They can't, and that affects the growth of soccer when schools get frustrated by the great disparity in school size in DIII. Simple question: How many 1A schools have won a DIII soccer Championship in the history of DIII? (From memory I think the answer is two on the boys side and one on the girls side. I know the number is a very small, and some were 10+ years ago.) All of the above applies to Class C, Class B, and a number of Class 2A schools, too.
I personally would prefer having fewer schools qualify for the three DIII playoffs and Championships but, if no more proposed rules changes are allowed, I say pass this first. Then see if the number of playoff teams should be reduced. In this current football season, nearly a half dozen select 1A schools opted out of the playoffs, rather than travel and get killed, when all select 1A football schools made the playoffs. So there will be some self selection to the playoff process in soccer, too.
I hope the proposal for 5 Soccer State Championships passes and see it as a huge step forward for soccer in La.
NewO
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2013 14:05:10 GMT -6
Love the idea of 5 Champions! I have been posting here about growing the sport by making DIII more competitive through more Divisions. More Championships does the same thing. How can schools of up to approximately 220 coeds (1A) can compete with schools of up to approximately 640 (3A) coeds? They can't, and that affects the growth of soccer when schools get frustrated by the great disparity in school size in DIII. Simple question: How many 1A schools have won a DIII soccer Championship in the history of DIII? (From memory I think the answer is two on the boys side and one on the girls side. I know the number is a very small, and some were 10+ years ago.) All of the above applies to Class C, Class B, and a number of Class 2A schools, too. I personally would prefer having fewer schools qualify for the three DIII playoffs and Championships but, if no more proposed rules changes are allowed, I say pass this first. Then see if the number of playoff teams should be reduced. In this current football season, nearly a half dozen select 1A schools opted out of the playoffs, rather than travel and get killed, when all select 1A football schools made the playoffs. So there will be some self selection to the playoff process in soccer, too. I hope the proposal for 5 Soccer State Championships passes and see it as a huge step forward for soccer in La. NewO NewO, I am going to respectfully disagree with you. Here's why. With regards to enrollment, there's little to no difference between A, B, C schools. The main difference being that class A schools have throwball. I would rather see 4 separate divisions. With obviously A,B and C schools being the 4th division. How many A, B and C schools even have soccer? D2 should be comprised of 3A and 4A schools. I'm sure we all want to see the sport grow. But not by watering down the product. And that's what will be accomplished with the "everybody gets a shot at a championship" mindset. I haven't heard of a school dropping a sport because they got hammered in district or had no chance of a championship season. One would think that failure (or "lack of success" to be more pc) would motivate a school to actually build a program. As we all should know by now, enrollment alone has very little impact on the quality of a given team from year to year. it's the quality of players. Does jesuit dominat every year because they have over 2500 kids? No. They dominate because a large enough percentage of their players play competitive club soccer year round. To a lesser degree that's true with just about every other perrenial soccer power. Frankly, I don't really see the point of having 32 teams make the playoffs either. Doesn't make sense. Just not enough parity. Look at what they've done with the throwball playoff system. Ridiculous! I don't see any validity into how this new system is going to grow the sport. Will, say Many, Winnfield or Florein all of a sudden start up soccer programs? I think not. And, for the record, I graduated from a tiny Class A high school. Basing the argument around numbers alone just doesn't make sense.
|
|
|
Post by chspc2 on Dec 11, 2013 15:17:39 GMT -6
Since I wrote the proposal, I will try to explain the reasoning and clarify some questions.
To hall97.....size does make a difference. Especially at the Division III level. On the Girls side, there are twelve 1A, B, and C schools, eighteen 2A schools, and twelve 3A schools. On the boys side, there are seventeen 1A, B, and C schools, nineteen 2A schools, and twelve 3A schools playing soccer. Every two years a number of schools switch classifications (I think there were three or four 1A schools that jumped up to 2A, among soccer playing schools)
Nothing has to be changed as far as districts go. All Division III schools play in Division III and play their normal districts. At the end of the year, though, separate out Division III schools into their respective classifications with 1A, B and C being lumped together as one. This can easily be done this year. The LHSAA would have to figure when and where the state championship for the 6 Division III championships would be and when. Maybe add Monday for 1A, B, and C, Tuesday for 2A and Wednesday is already set aside for Division III so 3A can play then. Or have 1A boys and girls and 2A girls on Tuesday with 2A boys, 3A boys and girls on Wednesday. Plenty of time to figure it out. The only thing is the LHSAA would have to break it out and they have to do that for the playoffs anyway.
As far as all the schools being in the playoffs.......it was easier to write that than trying to figure out a nice number. There was the argument that a bunch of schools opted out for the football playoffs......ok, so what, instead of 32 there were 28 so some schools would have a bye......that would happen if we had something other than 8 or 16 making the playoffs. Schools would have to say before seeding that they aren't in.
Ask any kid if the season didn't mean anything and they would say it does. They want to play and districts would still mean something. Also, playing a regular season still means you get seeded. It's for the seeding and playing.
I feel that the LHSAA set a precedent with football. This proposal has nothing to do with select/non-select. It is a fairer system based on size.
It's to grow the sport in the smaller size schools. that is where the growth needs to come from.
I might add more later!
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2013 15:44:05 GMT -6
Since I wrote the proposal, I will try to explain the reasoning and clarify some questions.
To hall97.....size does make a difference. Especially at the Division III level. On the Girls side, there are twelve 1A, B, and C schools, eighteen 2A schools, and twelve 3A schools. On the boys side, there are seventeen 1A, B, and C schools, nineteen 2A schools, and twelve 3A schools playing soccer. Every two years a number of schools switch classifications (I think there were three or four 1A schools that jumped up to 2A, among soccer playing schools)
Nothing has to be changed as far as districts go. All Division III schools play in Division III and play their normal districts. At the end of the year, though, separate out Division III schools into their respective classifications with 1A, B and C being lumped together as one. This can easily be done this year. The LHSAA would have to figure when and where the state championship for the 6 Division III championships would be and when. Maybe add Monday for 1A, B, and C, Tuesday for 2A and Wednesday is already set aside for Division III so 3A can play then. Or have 1A boys and girls and 2A girls on Tuesday with 2A boys, 3A boys and girls on Wednesday. Plenty of time to figure it out. The only thing is the LHSAA would have to break it out and they have to do that for the playoffs anyway.
As far as all the schools being in the playoffs.......it was easier to write that than trying to figure out a nice number. There was the argument that a bunch of schools opted out for the football playoffs......ok, so what, instead of 32 there were 28 so some schools would have a bye......that would happen if we had something other than 8 or 16 making the playoffs. Schools would have to say before seeding that they aren't in.
Ask any kid if the season didn't mean anything and they would say it does. They want to play and districts would still mean something. Also, playing a regular season still means you get seeded. It's for the seeding and playing.
I feel that the LHSAA set a precedent with football. This proposal has nothing to do with select/non-select. It is a fairer system based on size.
It's to grow the sport in the smaller size schools. that is where the growth needs to come from.
I might add more later! Coach, I can agree that there is a difference between a class A school and even a large 2A school. But it doesn't seem there are enough class A, b and C schools that even have soccer to justify a separate state championship. I really don't understand having a separate championship for ...17 participating schools. And why should Division II be exclusive to 4A schools? 4 and 5A should be grouped together. 2 and 3A should be d2. The rest are d3. There was a big argument when I lived in arkansas concerning private schools having an advantage over small, rural public schools. How was it handled? The private schools had to use a 1.6 multiplier based on enrollment and most had to move up a classification. Consequently most soccer schools moved up a division. For example, Division I is made up of 4A and 5A schools. The vast majority of these private schools that were 2A were forced to compete against 4 and 5A schools. Whether it's fair or not that makes a lot more sense than creating 5 or 6 separate playoff brackets. I just don't see how this is going to improve things. it might for a couple of fledgling 1A soccer schools...for a while. But the reality is that due to demographics, schools like University, Menard, Vandebilt, St. Louis, et. al are still going to be the more competitive soccer programs year after year. The best (and most prafmatic) way to address the real problem is to develop feeder programs....you know, 'grassroots' development. Now, admittedly there is a huge difference between a midsized 3A school and a typical Class A school. I'm not disputing that. But hs throwball rosters carry 3 to 4 times as many athletes as hs soccer rosters. So the numbers 'disparity' doesn't equally translate to soccer. The teams that are successful year in and year out (regardless of division) are the ones with the best players. And that usually means 'club' or at least 'fulltime' soccer players. And it isn't always the higher enrollment schools that win. So, the only real solution regarding overhauling the "unfair" system is to completely separate the private schools from the public schools and then creating classifications based on enrollment. Then again, I think the concept of a "level playing field" is abstract anyway.
|
|
p_malinich
Data Expert
www.elevenlions.com
Posts: 4,201
|
Post by p_malinich on Dec 11, 2013 15:48:40 GMT -6
Nothing has to be changed as far as districts go. All Division III schools play in Division III and play their normal districts. At the end of the year, though, separate out Division III schools into their respective classifications with 1A, B and C being lumped together as one. This can easily be done this year. The LHSAA would have to figure when and where the state championship for the 6 Division III championships would be and when. Maybe add Monday for 1A, B, and C, Tuesday for 2A and Wednesday is already set aside for Division III so 3A can play then. Or have 1A boys and girls and 2A girls on Tuesday with 2A boys, 3A boys and girls on Wednesday. Plenty of time to figure it out. The only thing is the LHSAA would have to break it out and they have to do that for the playoffs anyway.
Sounds like the year wasn't a typo. It sounds like the proposal IS for THIS year. Is that right, Coach?
|
|