Last Defender, goal scoring opp

[playwide]

The last 3 games I have attended have each had a "last defender" scenario play out. In each case, the center handled them differently - but in none of these instances did the referee send off the offending player. So my questions to the board are:

1. Why is this simple rule rarely applied in HS?
2. Do you think there is a lack of awareness among HS refs?
3. Is the punishment so harsh that the refs do not want to impose?

You see this call virtually every weekend at the Pro level, but through 6 years of HS I have seen it applied a handful of times. In club, you see it at the regional level but rarely in LA competition.

What gives?

[laffysoccermom]

I was told confidentially by a ref that they were hesitant to do any send offs because of the amount of paperwork involved. He said he would do them if absolutely necessary but his standards were different from club. He said he would never publicly admit that.

Another issue he said was that you have so many players that don't know the rules and he hated to be as harsh with those players. He compared it to how they ref younger kids in rec.

This wasn't just about last defender but just a general conversation about why fewer cards were given in high school vs club.

[premier]

As a general consensus that I've seen talking with fellow referees. The high school level and club level are referred at two VERY different mentalities.

In club, referees are aware that the players know the rules and have a good technical background.
In high school, you almost always see transitioned football players that are just athletic playing with no clue what the rules are. If a kid goes into a hard challenge in club, he might get a yellow due to him knowing that there were better options of possibly holding the man up rather than charging in. In high school, the referee is more willing to talk with the player and explain that you can't do that(and most of the time will face a "huh, didn't know that, got it!" Reply from the player)

In the case of the last defender, referees expect club players to fully understand that rule whereas in high school,most non-club players have no clue that rule even exists and God forbid their faculty coach knows and tells them. Plus-generally in my experience of watching high school games, the times you see a denying obvious goal scoring opportunity is generally against a team already getting beat down and referees generally don't like to add insult to injury if they can avoid it.

[wizdom]

That's a hard one for me cause if a player is hurt the 'huh i didn't know responds' doesn't make the play less dangerous and leaving a player like that on the field can be a risk to other players and we've all seen multiple offenses from the same players sometimes not being able to play may be the best lesson and paper work is part of the deal sorry but that's a small cost to pay in a sport riddled with injuries #safetyfirst

[kevin]

A foul by the last defender doesn't automatically mean a red card. If the attacker wasn't close to the ball (either too big a touch or a through ball that's too far away) or wasn't headed toward the goal, it might not be an obvious goal scoring opportunity.

That said, sometimes there is leniency on something that would be a by-the-book red card. Two examples I can think of off the top of my head, both from sub-varsity (JV or 8th grade games): one was a pretty clear last defender situation, defending team already a few goals down, foul outside the area. No intent to foul, just a clumsy, non-dangerous challenge from an inexperienced player. Ref gives a yellow and says "that probably should be red" or something to that effect. Another example from this season: 0-0 very early in a game, a clear deliberate handball in the box, but probably not a red card--I don't think the ball was on its way into the goal. One ref puts his hand on his pocket right away and I'm expecting to see a yellow, but he holds his hand on his pocket and confers with the other ref. Other ref talks him out of it. No card, just a PK.

I think common sense dictates not giving some of these cards when inexperienced players are involved, just as you might not give them at a younger age group in club soccer.

[laffysoccermom]

It's kind of like a middle school game that we played in. Other team had very inexperienced players and didn't know how to take a kickoff after the other team scored. One player just kept trying to dribble it up. Ref restarted 3 times and finally walked over to both coaches. Found out later that he told our coach that he was going to let them kick off incorrectly for that half and wasn't going to be as picky on throw-ins but instructed the coach to spend half time explaining those rules to his players and offered to assist if the coach wanted.

Granted these were much younger kids but I always thought the ref handled that one well. The team had it right in the second half.

[time2retire]

With the new reporting system (HS only) it is very easy to submit documentation for a red card. There is no excuse to not send it in. I see every report that is submitted. It takes 3 minutes if you have your stuff together.

1) HS refs have no requirement on previous training, except an online rules clinic, very short. Take that as you will.

2) Depends on the area. Some have periodic training, others don't have training at all. I can only answer for my area of responsibility - we did have training on this topic (4 D's)

3) No.

[laffysoccermom]

I was going to ask about high school qualifications vs club. We have had some interesting calls that I knew probably weren't within rules such as continuing to let a team with illegal throw ins try again.

[time2retire]

Jan 21, 2016 12:46:44 GMT -6 laffysoccermom said:

I was going to ask about high school qualifications vs club. We have had some interesting calls that I knew probably weren't within rules such as continuing to let a team with illegal throw ins try again.

In HS, they never get a second attempt, even if the ball doesn't enter the field of play.

[laffysoccermom]

This team got 4 and it's not like they were the underdog. They had a comfortable lead. Good to know about the never entering the field of play- had that happen and I thought ref was wrong. Turns out I was.

[cardsinhand]

Jan 20, 2016 16:25:31 GMT -6 laffysoccermom said:

I was told confidentially by a ref that they were hesitant to do any send offs because of the amount of paperwork involved. He said he would do them if absolutely necessary but his standards were different from club. He said he would never publicly admit that.

I call BS! If he/she is not willing to do the job, then he/she should not be assigned!

Another issue he said was that you have so many players that don't know the rules and he hated to be as harsh with those players. He compared it to how they ref younger kids in rec.

Age and skill Level are considerations.

This wasn't just about last defender but just a general conversation about why fewer cards were given in high school vs club.

100% Correct!

[cardsinhand]

Continuing the education! Below is the criteria that must be meet to show the red card and send off the player.

DOGSO  (link with videos)

The 4 D’s of DOGSO

The Laws of the Game (Law 12 – Fouls and Misconduct) require referees to send off players who deny an obvious goal scoring opportunity (DOGSO). U.S. Soccer has established the “4 D Criteria” to evaluate whether a foul meets the DOGSO definition and should result in a red card being issued. The following is a summary of the “4 D Criteria:”



Distance to goal

The distance between the offence and the goal must be considered. The closer to goal, the increased likelihood of the existence of a goal scoring opportunity.

Distance to ball

Attackers who have clear possession of the ball are more likely to have an obvious goal scoring opportunity. However, referees must “feel” the situation and consider that the Laws of the Game also require the referee to evaluate the “likelihood of keeping or gaining possession of the ball.” In other words, the referee may consider the fact that an attacker, not in possession of the ball, was clearly denied the opportunity to gain possession of the ball by an opponent and this denial resulted in an obvious goal scoring opportunity being denied.

Defender position/location and number

The location of and number of defenders involved in the scoring opportunity is an important factor. The closer the defender(s) are to the opponent with the ball, the increased opportunity they have to prevent a scoring opportunity. Additionally, the position or location of these defenders is an important component. A defender may be in front of the ball yet he may be positioned such that he cannot prevent the scoring opportunity. In this case, the referee may decide that this defender has no influence on the potential outcome and still consider an obvious goal scoring opportunity exists.

Direction to goal

The direction the attacker is taking toward the goal must be considered. Attackers in the center of the field moving directly to goal have a better chance to score than an attacker moving/dribbling away from the goalmouth.

Remember, the offence that denies an opponent an obvious goal scoring opportunity may result in either a direct free kick (ex: tripping) or indirect free kick (ex: obstructing an opponent). In either case, the offender must be red carded for “denying an obvious goal scoring opportunity to an opponent moving toward the player’s goal by an offence punishable by a free kick or penalty kick.”

[soccermom17]

Good Info Cards in Hand. Speaking of the throw in, with the wet weather, I have seen several instances where the throw in was taken and the thrower mis-threw or dropped the ball and it was not on the field of play. The referee (more than one instance) allowed the thrower to take the throw again. It was my understanding that if the ball was in the process of being thrown and left the hands, whether intentional or not, the throw in went to the other team. Is this not the case? And if it is a question of whether the thrower is actually in process of throwing the ball where can they "drop" it? Say for example if the thrower has the ball over their head and it "falls" out of the hands.

[cardsinhand]

Jan 21, 2016 13:27:36 GMT -6 soccermom17 said:

Good Info Cards in Hand. Speaking of the throw in, with the wet weather, I have seen several instances where the throw in was taken and the thrower mis-threw or dropped the ball and it was not on the field of play. The referee (more than one instance) allowed the thrower to take the throw again. It was my understanding that if the ball was in the process of being thrown and left the hands, whether intentional or not, the throw in went to the other team. Is this not the case? And if it is a question of whether the thrower is actually in process of throwing the ball where can they "drop" it? Say for example if the thrower has the ball over their head and it "falls" out of the hands.

Ahhh, the commonly applied Law 18 - Common Sense. Laws are flexible and we often make decision with the spirit of the game in mind. 

[time2retire]

Jan 21, 2016 13:27:36 GMT -6 soccermom17 said:

Good Info Cards in Hand. Speaking of the throw in, with the wet weather, I have seen several instances where the throw in was taken and the thrower mis-threw or dropped the ball and it was not on the field of play. The referee (more than one instance) allowed the thrower to take the throw again. It was my understanding that if the ball was in the process of being thrown and left the hands, whether intentional or not, the throw in went to the other team. Is this not the case? And if it is a question of whether the thrower is actually in process of throwing the ball where can they "drop" it? Say for example if the thrower has the ball over their head and it "falls" out of the hands.

My interpretation of your situations hinges on a simple question - was this an attempt to get the ball back into play? If yes, then possession switches. But sometimes, players do prepare for a throw and just drop it for another thrower, or they'll half(donkey) it to a teammate on the field without the intention of putting it into play. Even though a referee could call this a bad throw and technically be correct, we sometimes have to figure what a player is trying to do. Setting the ball with a foot on a free kick or corner kick is the same concept - a referee can call a two touch violation and be technically correct, but the spirit of the game and what players accept ultimately dictate how the referee should adjust to the game - not the game adjusting to the referee.

[soccermom17]

In the most recent example, the player with both hands tried to place the ball behind the head and in doing so dropped the ball as it was crossing over the head. I did not see that there was a player that she was trying to "donkey" it to then throw it in. Just watching it and was saying to myself that the other team should have gotten the throw in not the same team. It would not have made a difference in the outcome of the game, just wanted to know for my own personal information so if it happens when I am on the field, I can get it right.

[time2retire]

As a side note, and because I have no life, I researched all 104 reported soccer red cards so far this year. 8 fit the DGF criteria. And it is possible that I missed a few more because HS lists this offense as serious foul play.

[crodaddy]

when it comes to red cards remember local school districts don't understand the ejections in
soccer. unless something has changed in the past few years a red card can carry a fine, in school suspension, and a on line anger management class. I think that's a little tough for miss timed slide tackle or a hand ball in the box. school board treats a soccer ejection the same as a football or baseball ejection. I think this is why some refs are reluctant to make the last defender call

[laffysoccermom]

In the instance where the team got 4 tries. Player 1 picked up foot twice then Player 2 came on and threw to side of head twice and a third player finally threw in correctly.

It didn't change the outcome of the game so I guess it wasn't a big issue but it made me wonder about the training of the ref.

About the ref not wanting to do the documentation for the cards- I thought it was stupid too. To me you take a job- you do the job all the way. It just made me wonder how prevalent that attitude was. Hopefully most are just considering the skill and knowledge of the players and coaches.

[smee]

Jan 21, 2016 18:39:12 GMT -6 crodaddy said:

when it comes to red cards remember local school districts don't understand the ejections in
soccer. unless something has changed in the past few years a red card can carry a fine, in school suspension, and a on line anger management class. I think that's a little tough for miss timed slide tackle or a hand ball in the box. school board treats a soccer ejection the same as a football or baseball ejection. I think this is why some refs are reluctant to make the last defender call

2 yellows in soccer is really not much more than fouling out in basketball. Some players foul out in every game, and there is none of the above paperwork. A facemask / horsecollar tackle in throwball is a 15 yard penalty, and yet there is no paperwork for those naughty boys. So, yes, there are some officials that think twice before the second yellow comes out, especially if it is for "handbags" that can be handled more effectively.