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Post by number3 on Dec 20, 2008 12:14:11 GMT -6
Do they just not mean anything to anyone in this state?
I question the rationale of not requiring a player who receives a straight red card for violent conduct to sit out in the following contest. I'm wondering if any of you have insight as to why Louisiana allows those players to play in their next game.
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Post by SWLASocFan on Dec 20, 2008 19:10:47 GMT -6
I think the LHSAA Rules say that it's the coaches/schools decision. And you know how it goes, 99.9% of coaches will always say the red card was not deserved.
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Post by happyjack on Dec 21, 2008 18:12:58 GMT -6
It is not an LHSAA issue, it is a NFHS issue. They're rules don't say you have to sit out, so you don't sit. many teams/districts have their own rules that say you must sit a match... Of course, in FIFA, there is no law requirement to sit either, but everyone has adopted something about this.
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Post by lather on Dec 21, 2008 20:09:16 GMT -6
Under both sanctioning bodies, the only requirement for a 'red card' is that the player can no longer participate in the match. (FIFA - Send-off; NFHS - Disqualification)
NFHS also has a second tier for disqualifications. Under FIFA, a player sent off may not be replaced, and the the team plays short for the remainder of the match. Under NFHS, a player disqualified for a 'soft red' may be replaced and the team continues to play at full strength.
Sanctions beyond the immediate match are at the discretion of the association governing the match. In High School, it is typically the State HSAA.
Some states require an additional game suspension, ours does not. However, (if I remember correctly) the second red card for the same player involves a fine to the school, with a mandated game suspension for the player, and the third requires a higher fine to the school with a season-long suspension of the player.
I may be incorrect in the particulars and I'm sure that I will be corrected if I am.
But, that's pretty much the way it works in LA.
As an official, I don't really care how it is dealt with. If you misbehave on the field, I'll deal with it.
lather
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Post by furriner on Jan 8, 2009 8:22:23 GMT -6
spotted this in the British Press:
WE all know tempers can fray on the football pitch, but Anthony Lloyd went a little too far after being sent off for foul language in an amateur game in Surrey: he came back with a chainsaw and attacked a player on the other team.
Lloyd, who was apparently following the George Best school of soccer fitness by getting absolutely hammered before the match, remarkably didn't manage to wound Paul Westwood seriously, but that didn't stop a judge sentencing him to 12 months' imprisonment, suspended for two years.
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Post by happyjack on Jan 8, 2009 21:06:45 GMT -6
i wonder if his suspension form his next match commences on his release from jail???
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Post by furriner on Jan 9, 2009 9:31:01 GMT -6
the sentence was suspended: he does not have togo jail as long as he is a good boy for the next two years. Got to love the English legal system. This does mean that if he is a bad boy on the field, and the ref either does not catch it, or does not punish it, he can be sent to jail, as happened with Everton's Duncan Ferguson several years back.
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Post by soccercbr13 on Jan 11, 2009 0:59:16 GMT -6
I'm a referee who just refound this forum. When I give red cards I usually have a discussion with the coach after the game, so I can clear anything up. More times than not the coaches are quite understanding and do not make excuses. Some tell me their policy and from what I've gathered it's usually a mandatory one game suspension. Now whether they follow through or not I don't know but I always assume they do.
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Post by barbedad20 on Jan 19, 2009 21:57:02 GMT -6
Current Rules:
6.11.10 Player ejected from a contest in a sport for unsportsmanlike conduct:
1. First offense – the player shall receive, through the school, an official warning. 2. Second offense – the school shall be fined $100, and the student shall be placed on probation. 3. Third offense – the school shall be fined $200, and the student shall be suspended from participating in the same sport for the remainder of the season.
And what is being voting on at the end of the month. Much stiffer on the first offense.
6.11.10 Player ejected from a contest in a sport for unsportsmanlike conduct: 1. First Offense - The school shall be fined a minimum of $100 and a meeting shall be held with principal, coach, student, and student’s parents/guardian within one week of the ejection. A written report shall be filed with the LHSAA at the completion of the meeting. 2. Second Offense - The school shall be fined a minimum of $200 and the individual shall serve a one- game suspension from the next scheduled game at the level at which the ejection occurred. If the ejection occurs in the last game of the season, the fine shall be doubled. 3. Third Offense - The school shall be fined a minimum of $300 and the individual shall be suspended from participation in the same sport for the remainder of the season (including playoffs). If the ejection occurs in the last game of the season, the fine shall be doubled. 4. Note: a. Ejections are based on judgment calls by an official and are non-reviewable and irreversible. b. A player that has been suspended may not be in attendance during any type of contest. The school shall be prohibited from playing in a home and/or an away contest(s) with the suspended student in attendance until the suspension has expired. c. On the competitive area, in the press box, nor on the bench area during any contest. d. In the sport of SOCCER, Article 6.11.10 pertains only to an athlete receiving a RED CARD. e. Only with undisputed video evidence shall an appeal of the penalty be made to the Commissioner..
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Post by furriner on Jan 21, 2009 9:01:58 GMT -6
I certainly hope this is NOT carried, unless and until other sports come into line with soccer: examples - football - faceguard or horse collar tackle (automatic ejection from game and team plays man short); baseball - pitcher hits batter with ball (same penalty), obviously pitcher showed disregard for safety of batter by pitching deliberately too close to him.
I also disagree with line "e" above. Almost all football games are taped by the school. Soccer does not have this benefit. This could cause schools to drop soccer altogether if it starts getting too expensive. A miss timed tackle could now have the school fined.
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Post by Scott Crawford on Jan 25, 2009 13:19:05 GMT -6
Agreed. The LHSAA's recent proposals have a definite bent that harms high school soccer's standing.
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Post by DYNAMOFAN on Jan 28, 2009 23:06:18 GMT -6
I saw a kid get 2 red cards in a game the other night, 1st time i've ever seen it, that was an expensive game for that team. I had never considered how a player could get 2.
He got a yellow early, then another yellow(soft red) and as he walked off said something to the center, don't know what he said, and got another red.
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Post by futbolislife on Jan 29, 2009 7:53:41 GMT -6
I think the 2 red card was absolutely wrong. After the first send off, if the player continues to "misbehave", then the referee writes up his/her report on what happened before and after. You cant send off a sent off player.
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Post by furriner on Jan 29, 2009 9:42:46 GMT -6
I am assuming that the offending team had to play a man down after this? Bizarrely, this could be correct, under HS rules.
The only thing I can think of is situation 12.8.3 A, where is player is being cautioned for the second time. As this is HS, he could still be replaced (a second yellow and a soft red). The verbal after the soft red means a straight red (presumably for F/A Language, although 12.8.3A talks about taunting), and no replacement. I agree with FIL that in "real" soccer there would be no red card shown for the (in this case) third offense.
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Post by futbolislife on Jan 29, 2009 14:36:14 GMT -6
I would still believe that under HS rules, he cannot be shown another red. When he is shown the red card, he is no longer a player of record. If he is not a player, how can he be shown a new red card and the team forced to play short? Using similar logic, in a USSF game, I send off a player, as he leaves, he calls me something and I show another red and force another player to ride the pine and play two down? Or "sending off" (improper term) a bench player and making the team play short. This is effectively the same situation. The player shown the red, soft or not, is no longer a player.
Everyone knows I am not a HS ref nor have I read those rules in some time. Now maybe HS has a bizarre rule for this but unless someone showed me the answer in HS rules, I stand by my statement.
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Post by number3 on Jan 29, 2009 16:17:37 GMT -6
I held a discussion on this with my NFHS Rules Interpreter in another state maybe 2 years ago. This is what we decided.
When the player is shown the soft red, he is still on the field of play and a player of record until his substitute is beckoned and has entered the field. Once the substitute for the soft red player has been beckoned, he is no longer a player of record.
If I soft red a kid for 2CT and he gives me AL, without me beckoning on the sub, I have no choice but to come out with the straight red for AL and the numbers reduced. It is a greater penalty and the substitute has not been given permission to enter the field.
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Post by futbolislife on Jan 29, 2009 16:41:07 GMT -6
I actually discussed this with the LHSAA Rules interpreter after my last post because it is such an unusual circumstance. He concurred with me. And since you know who this person is, I think you would agree his status and credentials are fairly sound and I would weigh his opinion very heavily.
When the player is shown a red, he is at that instant no longer a player. Thats the real key here. The referee should report what happened but cannot all of a sudden add a greater penalty.
Lets go further. In most situations, referees allow players on before a player leaves. So to take it further, lets suppose Player A is shown a "soft red". He is walking off and his replacement comes on. At that instance when the referee allows the second player on, that is the new player. Now will you argue that if I show Player A a second red, I will make a player leave? This is all the same.
Using the same logic. You show a player a red for VC. Then as he walks off, he gives you some F&AL. Would this situation change if the first card was a soft red? Absolutely not. You wouldn't make the team play two players down. A red is a red. You cant show him another red and send off another player. I stand by my opinion and believe the referee erred, assuming he now made the team play a player down.
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Post by happyjack on Jan 29, 2009 21:17:58 GMT -6
in high school he does not have to enter the field to be a player. he becomes a player of record when the referee beckons him on, whether he has entered or not. agree with FIL that once a red is shown, he is no longer a player of record and can't be shown another. this sounds like a petty move by a referee, based on what was written here.
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Post by number3 on Jan 30, 2009 13:47:33 GMT -6
I can see those points of view. This is part of the reason why I don't like working so many different states, because I have to work with so many different interpretations. FIL, yours makes sense.
In Florida, non-contact/non-violent red cards are shown a blue card (such as DGH).
In New Jersey, for a soft red, you hold a card up in each hand.
Thanks for informing me of Louisiana's interpretation.
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dulac
All-District
Posts: 204
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Post by dulac on Jan 30, 2009 14:46:17 GMT -6
I can see those points of view. This is part of the reason why I don't like working so many different states, because I have to work with so many different interpretations. FIL, yours makes sense. In Florida, non-contact/non-violent red cards are shown a blue card (such as DGH). In New Jersey, for a soft red, you hold a card up in each hand. Thanks for informing me of Louisiana's interpretation. That's weird, a blue card? There's not a thing in the NFHS rules book about a blue card. The book is very explicit about who and how to card. We saw in the beginning of the season how much trouble can be caused by straying from the rule book. We were instructed in the beginning of the season not to collect rosters. After a number of games where players were red carded, and numbers instead of names were submitted to LHSAA, they "rethunk" their "interpretation". NOW, rosters ARE required as the rules book states. The correct info is sent to LHSAA and the referee doesn't get jumped by the coach after the game when the ref had to ask for the red carded players name. Yeah, that was a comfortable situation. NOT!
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