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Post by Eckleburg on Feb 22, 2004 8:50:35 GMT -6
That is the question.
Should HS players be taught to dive? If so when?
Or should they be taught to play through fouls?
What should ref's do when they realize what's going on?
Advantages - Disadvantages ??
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Post by Blackhawk1 on Feb 22, 2004 12:12:21 GMT -6
no they shouldnt... if so then the winner would be more than likely the one more qualified to win an academy award
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Post by goat on Feb 22, 2004 12:29:24 GMT -6
as a ref i have seen it. as a matter of fact we were talking about it at the lafayette game. i was sitting with a lot of the acadiana players and we discussed it. we all laughed when i pointed out to one of the players that i had carded him in the semi final game in u-10 for diving. it happens some guys do it on their own some are taught to do it. i think it is part of the game a good ref usually knows the difference between a dive and a foul.
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Post by soccercoachingbrit on Feb 22, 2004 14:20:45 GMT -6
i think with as many exchange students and foreign nationals that we have playing and coaching, diving will be the norm...right or wrong
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el Jefe
Starter
Don't try to teach a pig to sing; it only wastes your time and makes the pig mad.
Posts: 66
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Post by el Jefe on Feb 22, 2004 15:21:27 GMT -6
Anything that you can use to gain an advantage should be used, remember it's only wrong if the ref catches it. Im not advacating low grade violence, don't go out and kick anyone, but anything that can be used tactically, proffesional fouls or dives should be used. Enron executive board meetings probably sounded alot like this. Hopefully most soccer enthusiasts and players don't actually accept this. Otherwise the game is no better than championship wrestling, and doomed to decline in popularity. What I found rewarding about soccer was watching my sons do things with a soccer ball that I could only dream about and playing together as a team with their buddies that they grew up with. Winnig was only secondary, and I never felt proud of them for flopping in the penalty area just to get a PK. Maybe as the popularity of soccer increases, it will result in a demand for better refs who will keep divin to a minimum.
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Post by manchurianman on Feb 22, 2004 16:53:15 GMT -6
Yeah, i love doing cool things like juggling stepovers with the soccer ball too. But win it comes down to it i just want to win simple as that, that's just my mindset There's nothing wrong with wanting to win but there is something wrong with wanting to win at all cost. Do you also cheat on exams if you think you can fool the teacher. I really don't see much difference in the two. Please explain your version of what is the difference.
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Post by manchurianman on Feb 22, 2004 18:14:35 GMT -6
I never said that diving was acceptable. Plus is it my fault if the ref doesn't catch something. Of course not. You're kind of changing your tune a little now. You said in an earlier post "anything that can be used tactically, proffesional fouls or dives should be used". I would swear it sounds like you were saying diving was ok then. Want to comment on the difference in the two post? Think about this: If you cheat and the teacher doesn't see your cheat sheet is it still cheating, since she didn't catch you? It's still cheating and it's wrong, just like if you take a dive in the game and the referee doesn't catch it, it's still cheating and it's wrong. Same difference. You can argue as much as you want but it's wrong, no matter if the referee recognizes as a dive it or not.
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Post by manchurianman on Feb 22, 2004 18:36:07 GMT -6
I didn't mean flat out no contact just diving to draw the foul, i meant exaggerating a bit, but i see nothing wrong with professional fouls. I still don't see how you can compare fouls to cheating. That's my position and i won't comment any more on this subject. I can certainly understand why you would not want to comment anymore. Each statement you make appears to contradict other statements you have made earlier. BTW, I'm not comparing fouls to cheating. I'm comparing diving to cheating and they compare very favorably.
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Post by ostrya on Feb 22, 2004 19:07:31 GMT -6
Don't cheat on your homework, either!
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Post by goat on Feb 22, 2004 19:28:03 GMT -6
i'm sorry guys but i have a little different opinion. it isn't just diving, what about the backline that put their hand up on a through ball so the ref will call offside(they are putting the idea in the ar's head) what about the kid that picks up a ball that has gone out and looks to throw it in before the ref makes a decision? what about the kid that learns how to play the ball well with his hand when he has position on the ref? (this is done a lot). what about the defender who over sells a push on a header? have any of ya'll ever watched the MLS or the english premier legue? don't say we don't want that kind of soccer here because we would all kill to have that kind of soccer played here! selling a call to a ref is done in every sport not just soccer. el jefe has the right idea make sure the refs are good and they will see through that. it is part of every sport i have ever watched or played , (ok mayby not bowling), but every sport where there is a ref.
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Post by defencerules on Feb 22, 2004 19:29:54 GMT -6
a player stupid enough to dive with no contact will often get caught, and will develop a reputation that refs will hear of.
it is when there is some contact that a player "exaggerates" and purposely loses his footing, that is the problem. refs can have a hard time determining just how much force was used, and whether the fall was in fact caused thereby. again, a player that falls often enough in iffy circumstances will eventually be treated just like the boy whol cried wolf.
case in point, a team mate of my daughter, a player of slight build playing forward, was often fouled, and often hit the ground legitimately. its not that the fouls were particularly nasty, but she was small and easily knocked down. at first, she used to get a lot of calls, including some PKs. as she continued to play, she still goes down, but gets a lot fewer calls when she does.
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Post by Twerk19 on Feb 22, 2004 19:53:41 GMT -6
how bout we just play the game and not hit the ground anytime somebody tries to foul you...
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Post by Footy365 on Feb 22, 2004 19:56:34 GMT -6
Wasn't there a nikesoccer.com insert in Eurosport about all this.
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Post by manchurianman on Feb 22, 2004 21:07:08 GMT -6
i'm sorry guys but i have a little different opinion. it isn't just diving, what about the backline that put their hand up on a through ball so the ref will call offside(they are putting the idea in the ar's head) what about the kid that picks up a ball that has gone out and looks to throw it in before the ref makes a decision? what about the kid that learns how to play the ball well with his hand when he has position on the ref? (this is done a lot). what about the defender who over sells a push on a header? have any of ya'll ever watched the MLS or the english premier legue? don't say we don't want that kind of soccer here because we would all kill to have that kind of soccer played here! selling a call to a ref is done in every sport not just soccer. el jefe has the right idea make sure the refs are good and they will see through that. it is part of every sport i have ever watched or played , (ok mayby not bowling), but every sport where there is a ref. While you have a point, there is a difference. When you simulate a foul or the severity of a foul you are saying an opponent fouled you. You may put the opponent in jeporaty of getting a caution or even a send off if they already have a caution. Not quite the same as running to take a questionable throw-in or putting the hand up hoping for an offside call. I agree with another poster that said players who get a reputation for diving sometimes don't get a legitimate call he may deserve. It goes something like fool me once . . . . . .
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Post by imeg4fun on Feb 22, 2004 21:47:49 GMT -6
ok guys, before you start to bash me im gonna give my opinion then i'll try and justify it, as a player especially during highschool, i wanna win at all costs. im going to do whatever i can to win ( with the exception of cheap fouling etc) im gonna do everything legal i can to win. if im in the pk area and we are down by 1 or tied up and i get nudged then heck yea im hittin the ground hard. if i can earn a pk for my team that gives us a good shot at winning or gives us the win then yes i'll do it, some call it cheating , i call it a smart play. say its the state final game and the score is 1-1 with a minute left, you get pushed and you exagerate and take the dive. the result is ur team wins 2-1 , are you going to go tell the ref later that it shouldnt count b/c you took a dive? no! therefore i think dives are a good technique to learn.
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Post by manchurianman on Feb 22, 2004 23:01:34 GMT -6
ok guys, before you start to bash me im gonna give my opinion then i'll try and justify it, as a player especially during highschool, i wanna win at all costs. im going to do whatever i can to win ( with the exception of cheap fouling etc) im gonna do everything legal i can to win. if im in the pk area and we are down by 1 or tied up and i get nudged then heck yea im hittin the ground hard. if i can earn a pk for my team that gives us a good shot at winning or gives us the win then yes i'll do it, some call it cheating , i call it a smart play. say its the state final game and the score is 1-1 with a minute left, you get pushed and you exagerate and take the dive. the result is ur team wins 2-1 , are you going to go tell the ref later that it shouldnt count b/c you took a dive? no! therefore i think dives are a good technique to learn. The only thing I can say is that it's obvious some people have a higher set of moral values than other people have. Will this be the same values you will try to instill in your own children in a few years, that the end justifies the means, no matter what, that it's ok to cheat if it helps them win.
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Post by SWLASocFan on Feb 22, 2004 23:51:02 GMT -6
Come on Imeg4fun...I've seen you play since you were a little boy . . . You, of all people would never take a diver, right?
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Post by hdkjga on Feb 23, 2004 1:08:45 GMT -6
Diving is part of the game. I don't like it, but it is. People try to win. If a player makes the judgement to dive, then he has to suffer the consequences of making that choice. I think the refs need to start carding players that do dive on purpose especially if it is obvious.
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Post by ShreveDad on Feb 23, 2004 8:52:55 GMT -6
I am truly depressed right now. To think I don't have what it takes to teach my children good moral values, just because I used to push the rules in youth baseball and basketball. To accuse some of lacking what it takes to teach their kids moral values because they push the rules while they are trying to win a soccer match is insane. All of us who have played competitive sports have done something to try and give our team an advantage. To those who go out and try to injure an opponent, you have a case. As far as the rest, please lighten up.
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Post by imeg4fun on Feb 23, 2004 9:27:23 GMT -6
even after what manchurian man wrote, i'd still take a dive as soon as i got bumped
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