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Post by Cooldaddy on Jan 20, 2021 17:46:44 GMT -6
Teams that Consistently Play a Possession-Based Style of Play (nominated by): Div I Mt. Carmel (Tank, onemanwall, geauxcougars, 3balz, use2play) Dominican (geauxcougars, kevin) Ponchatoula (Cooldaddy) St. Joseph's Academy (MC2)
Div II St. Thomas More (kevin) Vandebilt Catholic (kevin)
Div III
Div IV Isidore Newman (kevin)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Are there any girls high school teams that actually play possession-based soccer? You know, something where they can consistently string at least 3 passes together throughout a match? Or, I don't know... let's get crazy and say they can string at least 8 passes at least one time in each game. I've yet to see it this year in the games I've watched (7 Div I teams, 7 Div III teams, 3 Div IV teams). Over the next two weeks, I'll be watching ED White, Livonia, Parkview Baptist, U-High and possibly PJP II play so perhaps one of them will surprise me. I'd expect some of the top Div I and Div II girls teams to resemble some type of possession-based play, but do they actually play this way? I honestly haven't watched any of the top Div I, Div II or Div IV teams play (and as noted earlier, I will be watching UHigh, Parkview, etc soon).
I know there is the argument about possession being useless without a purpose, but from what I've seen so far this season, the athleticism of a team is a much bigger influence than a team's skill or IQ. Surprise surprise, I know. Unfortunately, I've seen it locally here at the next level with the LSU women's team. (Granted, I only watched a total of 4 games from the past 2 seasons, I believe... but even going further back some time, the LSU games that I watched (again not many) always seemed to have little possession... I'm talking constant turnovers and not being able to string even 3 passes together).
I realize high school teams are usually not going to be as good as "higher level" club teams due to their roster makeup. But, I can say it's been my personal experience that in the lower level club games I've witnessed over the years, possession play is sorely lacking—and it seems to be the same for girls high school soccer in this state. I think it'd be a safe bet to say the lack of possession-based play exists at the higher levels of girls club soccer in this state as well although I haven't watched many games at that level. Thoughts?
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Post by Tank on Jan 20, 2021 18:11:19 GMT -6
Are there any girls high school teams that actually play possession-based soccer? You know, something where they can consistently string at least 3 passes together throughout a match? Or, I don't know... let's get crazy and say they can string at least 8 passes at least one time in each game. I've yet to see it this year in the games I've watched (7 Div I teams, 7 Div III teams, 3 Div IV teams). Over the next two weeks, I'll be watching ED White, Livonia, Parkview Baptist, U-High and possibly PJP II play so perhaps one of them will surprise me. I'd expect some of the top Div I and Div II girls teams to resemble some type of possession-based play, but do they actually play this way? I honestly haven't watched any of the top Div I, Div II or Div IV teams play (and as noted earlier, I will be watching UHigh, Parkview, etc soon). I know there is the argument about possession being useless without a purpose, but from what I've seen so far this season, the athleticism of a team is a much bigger influence than a team's skill or IQ. Surprise surprise, I know. Unfortunately, I've seen it locally here at the next level with the LSU women's team. (Granted, I only watched 2 games from the past 2 seasons, I believe... but even going further back some time, the LSU games that I watched (again not many) always seemed to have little possession... I'm talking constant turnovers and not being able to string even 3 passes together). I realize high school teams are usually not going to be as good as "higher level" club teams due to their roster makeup. But, I can say it's been my personal experience that in the lower level club games I've witnessed over the years, possession play is sorely lacking—and it seems to be the same for girls high school soccer in this state. Thoughts? Initial thoughts: 1) Role of the first attacker is to penetrate the defense with a shot, pass, or dribble. When that option is not available, keep possession. Anytime you can play it over the top and get a 1v1 chance, why wouldn't you? 2) If the defense ia playing a high line at midfield, where is the space to play the ball? Between the 9 defenders to make 8 passes, or over the top? 3) Possession is nice - doesn't necessarily dictate who wins. 4) Play what the defense gives you - sometimes that means having to build some possession, sometimes that means hitting over the top of a flat 4. Just some initial thoughts - if you're asking me should players be able to possess, then of course. Is it necessary to win every game? Nah.
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Post by Cooldaddy on Jan 20, 2021 18:48:15 GMT -6
Thanks for the feedback, Tank. I am fully aware of the points that you stated in your initial thoughts. Here are my replies:
1) I prefer that the role of the first attacker should depend on where (e.g. middle third, attacking third) the attacker is when he/she is controlling the ball. Depending on where you're at on the field would dictate if you should look for a shot, dribble or pass for instance, as I'm sure you'd agree.
2) Yep, common knowledge for sure and I can't argue with the situation you describe... but are their teams that are known for being able to break down a mid to low block defending opponent? (and that actually could be another topic... how many teams actually sit back in high school soccer instead of playing a high line of confrontation?).
3) Of course... we've all seen teams sit and bunker and end up winning on a single counter while being outshot 25-3 in games (USMNT of old, anyone?). I personally don't like that style of play, but it's definitely useful when you know your team will be on its heels most of the game absorbing pressure. Play to your team's strength... but that's my point—whose strength is playing possession-based soccer?
4) Agree except I love keeping the ball on the deck and would rather a nice through ball than one over the top. But, the through ball requires more skill and better movement from players as it's usually easier to hit a ball over a defensive line than through it.
So, again.... anyone know a team whose strength is possession-based? Constantly makes 200 passes a game? Can play out of the back from goal kicks? Anyone?
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Post by Tank on Jan 20, 2021 18:52:35 GMT -6
Thanks for the feedback, Tank. I am fully aware of the points that you stated in your initial thoughts. Here are my replies: 1) I prefer that the role of the first attacker should depend on where (e.g. middle third, attacking third) the attacker is when he/she is controlling the ball. Depending on where you're at on the field would dictate if you should look for a shot, dribble or pass for instance, as I'm sure you'd agree. 2) Yep, common knowledge for sure and I can't argue with the situation you describe... but are their teams that are known for being able to break down a mid to low block defending opponent? (and that actually could be another topic... how many teams actually sit back in high school soccer instead of playing a high line of confrontation?). 3) Of course... we've all seen teams sit and bunker and end up winning on a single counter while being outshot 25-3 in games (USMNT of old, anyone?). I personally don't like that style of play, but it's definitely useful when you know your team will be on its heels most of the game absorbing pressure. Play to your team's strength... but that's my point—whose strength is playing possession-based soccer? 4) Agree except I love keeping the ball on the deck and would rather a nice through ball than one over the top. But, the through ball requires more skill and better movement from players as it's usually easier to hit a ball over a defensive line than through it. So, again.... anyone know a team whose strength is possession-based? Constantly makes 200 passes a game? Can play out of the back from goal kicks? Anyone? Glad I could help. The answer you are looking for is Mt. Carmel.
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Post by Cooldaddy on Jan 20, 2021 18:57:12 GMT -6
Great. Mt. Carmel is on my list of "possession-based" teams in this state for high school soccer. Anybody else have any other teams they feel should make my oh-so-important list based on the requirements discussed above? ;-)
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Post by Tank on Jan 20, 2021 19:10:12 GMT -6
200 passes a game?! You're crazy, cooldaddy.
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Post by onemanwall on Jan 20, 2021 19:14:41 GMT -6
Mt. Carmel. That’s the list
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Post by Cooldaddy on Jan 20, 2021 19:14:59 GMT -6
Honestly, I had 150 passes at first. 200 passes over 80 minutes shouldn't be hard for a true possession-based team that's bound to mercy rule some teams (although one can argue the mercy rule will reduce the game length...and I don't want to get into a mercy rule discussion. There's a current post on that topic already that I've seen on here).
OK, let's make things a bit easier... 150 COMPLETED passes consistently throughout a season. Will that help allow a few more teams in the conversation? Be honest for those of you have access to stats from games. I'm talking consistently as in, I don't know, 75% of games.
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Post by Cooldaddy on Jan 20, 2021 19:17:57 GMT -6
Mt. Carmel. That’s the list Mt. Carmel is running away with the title so far! :-D
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Post by futbalfan on Jan 20, 2021 19:37:38 GMT -6
Honestly, I had 150 passes at first. 200 passes over 80 minutes shouldn't be hard for a true possession-based team that's bound to mercy rule some teams (although one can argue the mercy rule will reduce the game length...and I don't want to get into a mercy rule discussion. There's a current post on that topic already that I've seen on here). OK, let's make things a bit easier... 150 COMPLETED passes consistently throughout a season. Will that help allow a few more teams in the conversation? Be honest for those of you have access to stats from games. I'm talking consistently as in, I don't know, 75% of games. I mean Man City had 553 accurate passes today. www.fotmob.com/livescores/3411341?status=finishedAre there 53 in a typical girl’s high school game?
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Post by Tank on Jan 20, 2021 19:40:50 GMT -6
Honestly, I had 150 passes at first. 200 passes over 80 minutes shouldn't be hard for a true possession-based team that's bound to mercy rule some teams (although one can argue the mercy rule will reduce the game length...and I don't want to get into a mercy rule discussion. There's a current post on that topic already that I've seen on here). OK, let's make things a bit easier... 150 COMPLETED passes consistently throughout a season. Will that help allow a few more teams in the conversation? Be honest for those of you have access to stats from games. I'm talking consistently as in, I don't know, 75% of games. I mean Man City had 553 accurate passes today. www.fotmob.com/livescores/3411341?status=finishedAre there 53 in a typical girl’s high school game? And only 2 goals?! Need to pump those numbers up if you score on average 1 goal per 226.5 passes.
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Post by Speed kills on Jan 20, 2021 19:46:21 GMT -6
Great. Mt. Carmel is on my list of "possession-based" teams in this state for high school soccer. Anybody else have any other teams they feel should make my oh-so-important list based on the requirements discussed above? ;-) Dominican and Mt Carmel
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Post by Cooldaddy on Jan 20, 2021 19:56:12 GMT -6
Dominican has been added to the list
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N.L.B.
All-District
Posts: 171
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Post by N.L.B. on Jan 20, 2021 20:12:08 GMT -6
I think passing it into the back of the net is more beautiful than playing keep away. If your team has a speedster, lob the ball over the D line and let her fly. Never understood why having more possession is such a point of pride with some folks.
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Post by kevin on Jan 20, 2021 20:14:19 GMT -6
DI: I'd say Mt. Carmel is probably at the top of the list for playing a possession game. Dominican can also possess it, but they like to get it over the top and use their speed.
DII: I've only seen St. Thomas More once, but they're a very strong team and they can certainly keep the ball when they want.
DIII: Vandy has been one of my favorite teams to watch for years. I remember a few years back watching them and they could just work it out wide at will and then cross it in. Overlapping runs all the time.
DIV: Newman. They can go toe-to-toe with some of the top DI teams and still keep plenty of the ball.
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3balz
Data Expert
It's tough to make predictions... especially about the future
Posts: 1,260
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Post by 3balz on Jan 20, 2021 20:37:56 GMT -6
I used to think possession was the most important metric when evaluating a team. But over the last 3-4 years I’ve completely changed my mind. It has little to do with the outcome of a game outside of rec ball.
The MSC team that won regionals and went to the 8 team USYS national finals was routinely out possessed in regional play. They won with superior athletes, speed and strength. Other club teams and ECNL teams constantly commented on MSC’s speed and athleticism.
We saw two teams play at nationals from OH and MI. I remember talking to one of the parents before the game and he told me they had played this other team a bunch. He then told me their team would be significantly out possessed but that they would win. Initially I didn’t believe him but he was right. They had a striker that was faster than anyone on the field. They used their 20% possession time trying to get the ball to her. They spent 80% of the game playing good defense. That striker scored twice, they won 2-1 and she currently plays for the University of Michigan.
I’ll take a fast effective counter attack over possession any day.
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Post by Cooldaddy on Jan 20, 2021 20:48:58 GMT -6
DI: I'd say Mt. Carmel is probably at the top of the list for playing a possession game. Dominican can also possess it, but they like to get it over the top and use their speed. DII: I've only seen St. Thomas More once, but they're a very strong team and they can certainly keep the ball when they want. DIII: Vandy has been one of my favorite teams to watch for years. I remember a few years back watching them and they could just work it out wide at will and then cross it in. Overlapping runs all the time. DIV: Newman. They can go toe-to-toe with some of the top DI teams and still keep plenty of the ball. Thanks for the good info, kevin! I've updated the list.
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Post by Tank on Jan 20, 2021 21:01:02 GMT -6
Triangles are the best. Invigorating gameplay.
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Post by Cooldaddy on Jan 20, 2021 21:21:15 GMT -6
I think passing it into the back of the net is more beautiful than playing keep away. If your team has a speedster, lob the ball over the D line and let her fly. Never understood why having more possession is such a point of pride with some folks. Just kick it! (reminds me of a soccer tshirt I used to have years ago). The big long kicks usually get the most applause, oohs and ahhs from the crowd too, so it's a win-win. It's easier to teach a team to play direct when you have the luxury of a fast player up top. It's harder to develop players into playing a possession style because of what all a possession style based game demands of all the players (e.g. movement off the ball, etc.). Also, what happens if said speedster isn't on the field or goes up against one heckuva centerback who can read the game like no other? (Obviously, a good coach will try to prepare their team for such situations, but preparing and the team actually adapting during the game might not be the same). Look, I get it. I don't coach high school and I understand results may have more weight than in other soccer settings. And teaching a possession style to a group of players takes more than a season. It requires a commitment to the process and constant repetition which means lots of time which means a lot of coaches aren't going to invest in it at the high school level I would think. Some will argue that's what club/rec soccer is for. Some teams may try to play possession IF their players are already familiar with a possession style from club/rec soccer. To counter what 3balz said, I'll take an effective possession style over a counter attacking style any day. The fastest thing on the field is a player's brain...second fastest is the ball....and then the players. The easiest/quickest style of play to implement is a direct style of play because it requires less teaching/time of the players. So, I get why there are so few youth teams that can play a possession style which directly affects the # of high school players that keep possession. I just prefer to see a team move the ball around; thus, moving the opponent around before hitting that killer pass. But, I'm just a fan who doesn't have to worry about results.
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Post by ToulaSoccer on Jan 20, 2021 21:23:02 GMT -6
If you’re looking for a specific number to determine if a team has a possession-based system of play, then my team has averaged 440 passes this year. We have had games where we get out-possessed and win (or lose) and then others when we have possession and still either win or lose. I think the main thing is possession with a purpose and does a team have the creative ability to play a dangerous pass on the ground (or in the air) for their strikers?
Go look at Spain’s 1200 passes vs Russia in the World Cup, they lost. Possession by itself means nothing if there is no purpose.
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