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Post by Cooldaddy on Jan 20, 2021 21:29:48 GMT -6
If you’re looking for a specific number to determine if a team has a possession-based system of play, then my team has averaged 440 passes this year. We have had games where we get out-possessed and win (or lose) and then others when we have possession and still either win or lose. I think the main thing is possession with a purpose and does a team have the creative ability to play a dangerous pass on the ground (or in the air) for their strikers? Go look at Spain’s 1200 passes vs Russia in the World Cup, they lost. Possession by itself means nothing if there is no purpose. Of the averaged 440 passes over the season how many completed passes is this team averaging? 200 per game? Which team? Of course possession with a purpose matters. If you can't penetrate or be incisive, or pull the trigger, then you're not going to score. We all know the purpose of the game is to score. I don't believe I ever said I didn't want to see scoring. It's how the scoring occurs (i.e. the build up) that I enjoy watching more when it's possession based. Let's make things simpler: I'd rather watch a team that plays a style of possession-based (with purpose) than counter attack (with purpose).
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Post by Tank on Jan 20, 2021 21:34:26 GMT -6
I think passing it into the back of the net is more beautiful than playing keep away. If your team has a speedster, lob the ball over the D line and let her fly. Never understood why having more possession is such a point of pride with some folks. Just kick it! (reminds me of a soccer tshirt I used to have years ago). The big long kicks usually get the most applause, oohs and ahhs from the crowd too, so it's a win-win. It's easier to teach a team to play direct when you have the luxury of a fast player up top. It's harder to develop players into playing a possession style because of what all a possession style based game demands of all the players (e.g. movement off the ball, etc.). Also, what happens if said speedster isn't on the field or goes up against one heckuva centerback who can read the game like no other? (Obviously, a good coach will try to prepare their team for such situations, but preparing and the team actually adapting during the game might not be the same). Look, I get it. I don't coach high school and I understand results may have more weight than in other soccer settings. And teaching a possession style to a group of players takes more than a season. It requires a commitment to the process and constant repetition which means lots of time which means a lot of coaches aren't going to invest in it at the high school level I would think. Some will argue that's what club/rec soccer is for. Some teams may try to play possession IF their players are already familiar with a possession style from club/rec soccer. To counter what 3balz said, I'll take an effective possession style over a counter attacking style any day. The fastest thing on the field is a player's brain...second fastest is the ball....and then the players. The easiest/quickest style of play to implement is a direct style of play because it requires less teaching/time of the players. So, I get why there are so few youth teams that can play a possession style which directly affects the # of high school players that keep possession. I just prefer to see a team move the ball around; thus, moving the opponent around before hitting that killer pass. But, I'm just a fan who doesn't have to worry about results. 'Just Kick It!' is very different from playing over the top into space. JKI implies no technical skill other than running up and kicking. I can receive a ball in the middle 3rd, look up at my forward running into space, and take make 2nd touch to play in the half space. 3 passes we are in - breakfast is serve. No need for extra seasoning when your already cooked. Try to possess as long you like, but I like what the good ole Herman Edwards says...
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MC2
All-District
Posts: 248
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Post by MC2 on Jan 20, 2021 21:41:48 GMT -6
You also have to take into consideration the technical development of the players on teams. Unless you are a HS team where the majority of players are technically sound, you can kiss possession goodbye.
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Post by ToulaSoccer on Jan 20, 2021 21:47:01 GMT -6
If you’re looking for a specific number to determine if a team has a possession-based system of play, then my team has averaged 440 passes this year. We have had games where we get out-possessed and win (or lose) and then others when we have possession and still either win or lose. I think the main thing is possession with a purpose and does a team have the creative ability to play a dangerous pass on the ground (or in the air) for their strikers? Go look at Spain’s 1200 passes vs Russia in the World Cup, they lost. Possession by itself means nothing if there is no purpose. Of the averaged 440 passes over the season how many completed passes is this team averaging? 200 per game? Which team? Of course possession with a purpose matters. If you can't penetrate or be incisive, or pull the trigger, then you're not going to score. We all know the purpose of the game is to score. I don't believe I ever said I didn't want to see scoring. It's how the scoring occurs (i.e. the build up) that I enjoy watching more when it's possession based. Let's make things simpler: I'd rather watch a team that plays a style of possession-based (with purpose) than counter attack (with purpose). The average of completed passes has been 221.58 per game, and Ponchatoula High. Last year was when I started keeping track of several stats and how we passed in a game was one of them. Last year when we played Mandeville for example, we only completed 59 passes out of 125. This year’s game vs Mandeville went 110 completed out of 234. We’re slowly getting better and more comfortable on the ball, and that’s the important thing to me.
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Post by Cooldaddy on Jan 20, 2021 21:49:23 GMT -6
Yeah Tank, we get it. Kicking the ball over the top is a faster route to scoring. A long ball is quicker than 5 passes. Again, we know this. Playing a possession-based style is harder to do because it requires that you have players with a high soccer IQ more so than players with physical attributes in my opinion. Players with a high soccer IQ are much less common than players with speed, size, strength and I feel this explains why we see such little possession-based soccer in the youth game.
Anyone got any other teams they'd like to nominate as playing a truly possession-based style?
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Post by Cooldaddy on Jan 20, 2021 21:51:51 GMT -6
Of the averaged 440 passes over the season how many completed passes is this team averaging? 200 per game? Which team? Of course possession with a purpose matters. If you can't penetrate or be incisive, or pull the trigger, then you're not going to score. We all know the purpose of the game is to score. I don't believe I ever said I didn't want to see scoring. It's how the scoring occurs (i.e. the build up) that I enjoy watching more when it's possession based. Let's make things simpler: I'd rather watch a team that plays a style of possession-based (with purpose) than counter attack (with purpose). The average of completed passes has been 221.58 per game, and Ponchatoula High. Last year was when I started keeping track of several stats and how we passed in a game was one of them. Last year when we played Mandeville for example, we only completed 59 passes out of 125. This year’s game vs Mandeville went 110 completed out of 234. We’re slowly getting better and more comfortable on the ball, and that’s the important thing to me. That's fantastic! I'm adding Ponchatoula to the list because you have the stats to back it up! Great job developing your team!
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Post by Cooldaddy on Jan 20, 2021 21:55:02 GMT -6
You also have to take into consideration the technical development of the players on teams. Unless you are a HS team where the majority of players are technically sound, you can kiss possession goodbye. Yep, I whole heartedly agree. Easier to kick and chase than to create two movements, call for the ball, scan your shoulder two times, have a directional first touch and play the killer pass on the ground, isn't it?
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MC2
All-District
Posts: 248
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Post by MC2 on Jan 20, 2021 21:55:54 GMT -6
I think I would throw St. Joes in the mix.
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Post by Tank on Jan 20, 2021 22:00:55 GMT -6
Yeah Tank, we get it. Kicking the ball over the top is a faster route to scoring. A long ball is quicker than 5 passes. Again, we know this. Playing a possession-based style is harder to do because it requires that you have players with a high soccer IQ more so than players with physical attributes in my opinion. Players with a high soccer IQ are much less common than players with speed, size, strength and I feel this explains why we see such little possession-based soccer in the youth game. Anyone got any other teams they'd like to nominate as playing a truly possession-based style? Alright, so what's the point of this thread then? Name all the high possession teams via passing? Thought a rousing discussion of tactics would naturally ensure after your initial questions. My mistake.
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3balz
Data Expert
It's tough to make predictions... especially about the future
Posts: 1,260
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Post by 3balz on Jan 20, 2021 22:17:24 GMT -6
Go watch Spain in the last World Cup. They were nothing close to beautiful. It was quite boring. Then go watch France with well less than 50% possession. I think most of their scores came after an average of 3-4 very quick passes.
Mt Carmel probably led the state in possession for the past 3 years but they didn’t get a trophy for it.
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Post by Cooldaddy on Jan 20, 2021 22:37:37 GMT -6
I think I would throw St. Joes in the mix. Added to the list, MC2. Thanks for the input.
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Post by Cooldaddy on Jan 20, 2021 22:45:17 GMT -6
Yeah Tank, we get it. Kicking the ball over the top is a faster route to scoring. A long ball is quicker than 5 passes. Again, we know this. Playing a possession-based style is harder to do because it requires that you have players with a high soccer IQ more so than players with physical attributes in my opinion. Players with a high soccer IQ are much less common than players with speed, size, strength and I feel this explains why we see such little possession-based soccer in the youth game. Anyone got any other teams they'd like to nominate as playing a truly possession-based style? Alright, so what's the point of this thread then? Name all the high possession teams via passing? Thought a rousing discussion of tactics would naturally ensure after your initial questions. My mistake. "Name all the high possession teams via passing?" - yep, exactly the point of this thread. I personally like a possession-based style as opposed to counter-attacking, etc. All styles should have a purpose of scoring as that is the point of the game, but I wasn't intending to debate one style vs the other. I have my thoughts on why we see so little possession-based play at all levels (including international) and I've mentioned just some of them already in regards to the youth levels. But, for this post, I'm asking you all for help in determining what teams really pass the ball around on the pitch in their games. If you need specifics, let's say they average 150 completed passes on average per game over 75% of the season (but I realize most of us won't have seasonal stats for teams other than our own). So, I just have to kinda take y'all's word for who plays the way I like. :-)
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Post by Cooldaddy on Jan 20, 2021 22:49:07 GMT -6
Go watch Spain in the last World Cup. They were nothing close to beautiful. It was quite boring. Then go watch France with well less than 50% possession. I think most of their scores came after an average of 3-4 very quick passes. Mt Carmel probably led the state in possession for the past 3 years but they didn’t get a trophy for it. Ahh, the beauty of transitions... one team loses the ball and the other gains it. Statistically, most goals are scored with only 3-4 passes in the build up IIRC. Transitions are so important which is why a possession-based team must learn to counter/gegenpress and win the ball back quickly. Barcelona of old was so good at doing this. Also, a point not to be overlooked was that France was the 3rd youngest team in the 2018 WC while Spain was the 11th oldest. So, it's natural that an older team will want to make the ball do the work and move the opponent more while a younger team will want to attack quickly when they win it.
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3balz
Data Expert
It's tough to make predictions... especially about the future
Posts: 1,260
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Post by 3balz on Jan 20, 2021 23:22:18 GMT -6
Go watch Spain in the last World Cup. They were nothing close to beautiful. It was quite boring. Then go watch France with well less than 50% possession. I think most of their scores came after an average of 3-4 very quick passes. Mt Carmel probably led the state in possession for the past 3 years but they didn’t get a trophy for it. Ahh, the beauty of transitions... one team loses the ball and the other gains it. Statistically, most goals are scored with only 3-4 passes in the build up IIRC. Transitions are so important which is why a possession-based team must learn to counter/gegenpress and win the ball back quickly. Barcelona of old was so good at doing this. Also, a point not to be overlooked was that France was the 3rd youngest team in the 2018 WC while Spain was the 11th oldest. So, it's natural that an older team will want to make the ball do the work and move the opponent more while a younger team will want to attack quickly when they win it. My point is that France wasn't necessarily looking for the open player in the midfield. They were looking to make a perfect pass to a dangerous player making a creative run. They made a lot of long passes and 85% of the time that pass resulted in a turnover. That's OK if it generates scoring opportunities. If my team gets more legit scoring opportunities than your team, my team will usually win regardless of possession. Professional coaches and players aren't paid for connecting x number passes. They're paid to win. Personally I didn't like watching the old Dean Smith 4 corners even though he won with it. Most didn't and that's why there's a shot clock now.
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Post by #03G_VCH_#11B on Jan 20, 2021 23:22:23 GMT -6
Teams that Consistently Play a Possession-Based Style of Play (nominated by):Div IISt. Thomas More (kevin) Div IIIVandebilt Catholic (kevin) Vandebilt Catholic moved up to Division II last year.
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Post by Cooldaddy on Jan 20, 2021 23:30:05 GMT -6
Teams that Consistently Play a Possession-Based Style of Play (nominated by):Div IISt. Thomas More (kevin) Div IIIVandebilt Catholic (kevin) Vandebilt Catholic moved up to Division II last year. List has been corrected. Thanks!
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Post by Cooldaddy on Jan 20, 2021 23:36:31 GMT -6
3balz: "My point is that France wasn't necessarily looking for the open player in the midfield. They were looking to make a perfect pass to a dangerous player making a creative run. They made a lot of long passes and 85% of the time that pass resulted in a turnover. That's OK if it generates scoring opportunities. If my team gets more legit scoring opportunities than your team, my team will usually win regardless of possession. Professional coaches and players aren't paid for connecting x number passes. They're paid to win."
Yep and my point is that the point of this thread is who plays possession-based soccer. This thread is not about how France hit long balls and won 2nd balls, etc. It's not about how a team with a fast striker is going to play direct. If I wanted to know who wins the most games or is the best team in each division, I would just look at standings at the end of of the state title game. I want to know who plays possession-based soccer based on stats or eye witness accounts from y'all since I don't have a lot of experience watching high school games. Thanks for providing your insight though as I enjoy learning from anyone that I can.
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3balz
Data Expert
It's tough to make predictions... especially about the future
Posts: 1,260
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Post by 3balz on Jan 20, 2021 23:39:52 GMT -6
3balz: "My point is that France wasn't necessarily looking for the open player in the midfield. They were looking to make a perfect pass to a dangerous player making a creative run. They made a lot of long passes and 85% of the time that pass resulted in a turnover. That's OK if it generates scoring opportunities. If my team gets more legit scoring opportunities than your team, my team will usually win regardless of possession. Professional coaches and players aren't paid for connecting x number passes. They're paid to win." Yep and my point is that the point of this thread is who plays possession-based soccer. This thread is not about how France hit long balls and won 2nd balls, etc. It's not about how a team with a fast striker is going to play direct. If I wanted to know who wins the most games or is the best team in each division, I would just look at standings at the end of of the state title game. I want to know who plays possession-based soccer based on stats or eye witness accounts from y'all since I don't have a lot of experience watching high school games. Thanks for providing your insight though as I enjoy learning from anyone that I can. Fine I'll stay out of it then. Put together a list. But your title seems to suggest possession is "The Beautiful Game".
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Post by Cooldaddy on Jan 20, 2021 23:44:50 GMT -6
3balz: "My point is that France wasn't necessarily looking for the open player in the midfield. They were looking to make a perfect pass to a dangerous player making a creative run. They made a lot of long passes and 85% of the time that pass resulted in a turnover. That's OK if it generates scoring opportunities. If my team gets more legit scoring opportunities than your team, my team will usually win regardless of possession. Professional coaches and players aren't paid for connecting x number passes. They're paid to win." Yep and my point is that the point of this thread is who plays possession-based soccer. This thread is not about how France hit long balls and won 2nd balls, etc. It's not about how a team with a fast striker is going to play direct. If I wanted to know who wins the most games or is the best team in each division, I would just look at standings at the end of of the state title game. I want to know who plays possession-based soccer based on stats or eye witness accounts from y'all since I don't have a lot of experience watching high school games. Thanks for providing your insight though as I enjoy learning from anyone that I can. Fine I'll stay out of it then. Put together a list. But your title seems to suggest possession is "The Beautiful Game". Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, 3balz. Also, I'm working on a list (I've been editing the list in the original post, but here it is again). If you can think of any other teams 3balz, please let me know. Div I
Mt. Carmel (Tank, onemanwall, geauxcougars, 3balz) Dominican (geauxcougars, kevin) Ponchatoula (Cooldaddy) St. Joseph's Academy (MC2) Div II
St. Thomas More (kevin) Vandebilt Catholic (kevin) Div III Div IV
Isidore Newman (kevin)
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Post by ballshagger on Jan 21, 2021 8:04:09 GMT -6
Fine I'll stay out of it then. Put together a list. But your title seems to suggest possession is "The Beautiful Game". Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, 3balz. Also, I'm working on a list (I've been editing the list in the original post, but here it is again). If you can think of any other teams 3balz, please let me know. Div I
Mt. Carmel (Tank, onemanwall, geauxcougars, 3balz) Dominican (geauxcougars, kevin) Ponchatoula (Cooldaddy) St. Joseph's Academy (MC2) Div II
St. Thomas More (kevin) Vandebilt Catholic (kevin) Div III Div IV
Isidore Newman (kevin) You seem to have a weird obsession with this topic. If you don't have a concentration of quality club talent like most of these teams do, you can throw possession out the window against a legitimate opponent. Having said that, MCA will win state. Not so much because of possession based play, but the fact that we have the best players. GO CUBS!!
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