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Post by coachm90 on Nov 16, 2010 18:31:40 GMT -6
Last night at the Northlake Christian vs. Chalmette game the refs ran a duel system for the first half due to one of the linesmen showing up late. During the first half one of the refs called offsides on NCS during a throw-in. The ball was never touched by any player. The ref stopped the play as the NCS player ran onto it. Later he became the center ref once the third ref showed up. I just wanted to get some thoughts and opinions.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2010 9:26:16 GMT -6
There is no such thing as being offside on a throw-in!
If a ref is calling offside on a throw-in he needs to have his license revoked.
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Post by coachm90 on Nov 17, 2010 19:05:00 GMT -6
I am well aware that there is no offsides on a throw in, But the call was made none the less.
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ref05
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Post by ref05 on Nov 18, 2010 14:53:27 GMT -6
Of course there is no offside on a throw-in. Correct.
If memory serves me that is was a well managed, cardless 8-0 game, with the offside you question against the winning team. And from a discussion with the "defrocked" referee, the player taking the throw-in had his back foot about a foot off the ground anyway for the throw, so no matter how you slice it, the ball was going "the other way". The mistake made by the official was that the touch on the ball after it was thrown-in but before the attacker received it was made by the defender and not by a member of the throwing team. It would have been proper to move the ball about 15 yards upfield for a throw-in, but it really didn't make a difference when you look at the big picture.
Unfortunately I can see this mistake happening by a referee with a Dual system versus a 3-man, since positioning with Duals makes simple things more complex. Given the situation with a 3-man and an AR who can concentrate on offside, in my opinion this mistake doesn't get made. Very few refs like Duals (myself included), and certainly doing one on a Varsity Boys game is begging for trouble.
Since you guys brought it up, what kind of team complains about an offside mistake in an 8-0 rout? Maybe the ref ought to get a little credit for the 99% of the things done correctly, and keeping a blowout from getting rough, rather than a bashing on a mistake that may have given the loosing team "a bone" at worst. Food for thought.
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Post by Steven Gerrard on Nov 18, 2010 15:22:43 GMT -6
Since you guys brought it up, what kind of team complains about an offside mistake in an 8-0 rout? Maybe the ref ought to get a little credit for the 99% of the things done correctly, and keeping a blowout from getting rough, rather than a bashing on a mistake that may have given the loosing team "a bone" at worst. Food for thought. Amen. |
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dulac
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Post by dulac on Nov 18, 2010 16:09:58 GMT -6
Since you guys brought it up, what kind of team complains about an offside mistake in an 8-0 rout? Maybe the ref ought to get a little credit for the 99% of the things done correctly, and keeping a blowout from getting rough, rather than a bashing on a mistake that may have given the loosing team "a bone" at worst. Food for thought. Amen. What??? And miss an opportunity to bash a ref. Not going to happen here. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 18, 2010 16:25:48 GMT -6
I wasn't there. But making an offside call on a throw-in is pretty hard to just shrug off.
If the guy otherwise called a solid game...great!
The scoreline is irrelevant when you make that kind of incompetent call. Making up the "19th law of the game". (And skipping the 18th...common sense.)
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ref05
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Post by ref05 on Nov 18, 2010 20:17:34 GMT -6
hall97 - I do not think you understand what was written....and the scoreline is very relevant for this was not a game critical situation (a concept that good referees understand).
Yes, there was a mistake made (not a "made up call" - there's a big difference), but it did not change the result. One could further argue that it was a fortunate error, as the loosing team got a "bone". The ref is very "competant" and knows that there is no offside on a throw, but apparently the small deflection he saw while deciding whether the bad throw-in was trivial or not to call (obviously if the defender didn't flub the kick on the ball, there would have been no need to call back anything) was inaccurately judged as being from an attacker. Think of it as missing a touch on a ball and calling a corner kick a goal kick - I'd say that error has been made by every ref out there, including me.
Attribute the referees perspective on the play partially to the referee being forced to run a dual and having to split his attention while compromising his positioning - and then having to make a split second decision. So he gave the benefit of any doubt to a team being handily beat - I'd argue that is common sense in the real world ("rule 18"). Most coaches who are blowing out another opponent worry more about injuries/stupid stuff happening to their team than a referee mistake that actually may keep the other team from getting more frustrated.
While I wasn't there either, what I would pose is this. If you pulled the coaching license, referee license, and/or player pass from everyone who makes a mistake, the last person standing will probably be a referee. Next time, maybe the assignor will put someone more likely to make that call because he/she focuses on offside diligently but is less likely to see other fouls or manage a game full of testosterone-laden high school boys. We'll see which one the coach requests come playoff time.
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Post by goalieguy on Nov 18, 2010 21:05:46 GMT -6
Last night at the Northlake Christian vs. Chalmette game the refs ran a duel system for the first half due to one of the linesmen showing up late. During the first half one of the refs called offsides on NCS during a throw-in. The ball was never touched by any player. The ref stopped the play as the NCS player ran onto it. Later he became the center ref once the third ref showed up. I just wanted to get some thoughts and opinions. Since you guys brought it up, what kind of team complains about an offside mistake in an 8-0 rout? Maybe the ref ought to get a little credit for the 99% of the things done correctly, and keeping a blowout from getting rough, rather than a bashing on a mistake that may have given the loosing team "a bone" at worst. Food for thought. Amen. What??? And miss an opportunity to bash a ref. Not going to happen here. If you take a look at the original post you will see that there is no "ref bashing." An opinion was not even stated by the original poster. Correct me if i'm wrong but this thread was not created to put down any ref. The facts of the game were given and others were asked to give "thoughts and opinions." Thats all. If anyone disagrees with me please speak up? |
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Post by soccer2ref on Nov 19, 2010 9:00:19 GMT -6
When my friend ref05 told me about this post about this game I had a good chuckle on what a collasial waste of time it looks to be. I appreciate his defense. I otherwise would not comment, but it's time to chime in and waste a little of my time.
First of all, I recognize atleast 1/2 of the players on both teams from club and know both coaches by first name. They know (..atleast I hope they know) that I'm not a newbie or a dummy at this and that any 2-bit referee knows that there is no offside on a throw-in. So the question is rhetorical and from looking over this category and thread, is all about bashing, as proven later by the original poster acknowledging he knows the rules and agrees on "defrocking" . That was his whole point. It is what it is - so dulac don't be fooled.
Given the minimal "substance", what the original post did not mention is that a player from Chalmette stepped up to kick the ball immediately after the throw and appeared to me to tip the ball. Based on where I was, there was also an attacker in my vision who stepped up as well. So who tipped it was the question I had to answer? I watched the throw (with the foot coming up) turned my head to see the result only to see the step up, tip and ball go through to a sprinting attacker. My positioning was too close and poor given the situation because of it being a Dual. I was up against the touchline trying to judge offside and could not open up to the field to see both the throw and the offside line without having to turn my head.
So what I should have done was just whistle the bad throw by NLC and give the throw to Chalmette. But I saw the tip and in the 0.25 seconds that passed, concluded that the tip was from an attacker, thereby re-setting the offside and hence the whistle and "the arm" up for the IDFK.
The crowd didn't like it (the Chalmette fans who saw the throw wanted me to move it up for a throw and the NLC fans didn't agree with the offside), the attackers gave me a look about it (even after I said "it tipped off your player") and I started to second guess it at that point the tip, but given the whole situation I still let it stand (besides, NLC pretty much had this game and Chalmette was already getting a bit frustrated - so there was no need for the big picture of this game to challenge this situation). I even commented to the other referee at half that "I bet that tip was from the defender and not the attacker and I got it wrong - oh well, it would have been the throw-in otherwise".
So let's see - this didn't impact the result, and it was at most an error in judgment in a touch like awarding a goal kick instead of a corner, as previously stated. It had nothing to do with a "made up" call. Boy - you "vocal minority" guys truely show how little faith you have in all referees.
Enough said. This situation is noted and I will do my best to learn from it. I like the saying that if every coach and player made as few mistakes as the referee, the quality of soccer would be so much better.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 19, 2010 13:25:45 GMT -6
Errors in judgement are part of the game. Players, coaches and even refs. Everybody gets that.
Consequently everyone involved, players, coaches and even(gasp!) referees!
When players screw up they get benched. If coaches screw up (enough) they get fired.
On a time commitment basis, referees are compensated fairly well. Center refs especially.
When I screw up at work, two things usually happen. I get reprimanded. Or it literally costs me money.
Referees are not part of some elite fraternity. And as much as you all may disagree you are not beyond criticism
I understand now the circumstances in greater detail.
But, you have to admit when you hear about an offside call ona throw-in, it does send a message of incompetence.
As far as the 'why don't you do it' retort, the answer is simple: Those that want to do it are doing it.
I don't want to be a ref. No desire whatsoever.
The good news is that those that grew up playing the game will be the refs of tomorrow.
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Post by furriner on Nov 21, 2010 15:39:45 GMT -6
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Post by coachm90 on Nov 21, 2010 17:29:39 GMT -6
the ref made an offsides call because he put his hand strait up in the air signaling offsides. it should have been a throw in for the other team. not complaining about anything except how bad the officiating is thats it.
and one more thing i no longer have an affiliation with NCS. this was just my point of view on the game. thats it
no one from ncs is complaining about anything.
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pop
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Post by pop on Jan 3, 2011 12:45:31 GMT -6
I had an AR do the exact same thing in the attacking third of the field with my forward facing a 1v1 with keeper ...then a whistle and a flag.. reason was offside. After i blew my gasket he apologized. It was a competitive match that we did lose. But any coach will tell you that player morale and momentum means alot during a game. So one call like this is big. I have seen it work in our favor more than one time.
But how can one be "defrocked"? I also ref and there is no repercussion for such actions.
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Post by Steven Gerrard on Jan 3, 2011 12:58:58 GMT -6
I had an AR do the exact same thing in the attacking third of the field with my forward facing a 1v1 with keeper ...then a whistle and a flag.. reason was offside. After i blew my gasket he apologized. It was a competitive match that we did lose. But any coach will tell you that player morale and momentum means alot during a game. So one call like this is big. I have seen it work in our favor more than one time. But how can one be "defrocked"? I also ref and there is no repercussion for such actions. Morale all starts from the top. The players all feed off of the coach and his behavior. You blew your gasket? That explains the drop in morale by your team. How you behave has an effect on your team. Lets say you are in a physical game and the ref is "letting the teams play." Do you stand there and complain about all of the "non-calls" that you see? If so, your players are going to spend their time moaning and complaining about the "non-calls" rather then playing soccer. If one of my players turns to me to complain about some contact, I tell them to quit whining and to play soccer. The players then spend their time concentrating on the game, rather then getting ready to make excuses. This is also why parents should quit complaining. Sorry, but don't blame a drop in morale or a loss of momentum on a blown call by the ref. |
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Post by eternalfire on Jan 3, 2011 16:20:21 GMT -6
I had an AR do the exact same thing in the attacking third of the field with my forward facing a 1v1 with keeper ...then a whistle and a flag.. reason was offside. After i blew my gasket he apologized. It was a competitive match that we did lose. But any coach will tell you that player morale and momentum means alot during a game. So one call like this is big. I have seen it work in our favor more than one time. But how can one be "defrocked"? I also ref and there is no repercussion for such actions. Morale all starts from the top. The players all feed off of the coach and his behavior. You blew your gasket? That explains the drop in morale by your team. How you behave has an effect on your team. Lets say you are in a physical game and the ref is "letting the teams play." Do you stand there and complain about all of the "non-calls" that you see? If so, your players are going to spend their time moaning and complaining about the "non-calls" rather then playing soccer. If one of my players turns to me to complain about some contact, I tell them to quit whining and to play soccer. The players then spend their time concentrating on the game, rather then getting ready to make excuses. This is also why parents should quit complaining. Sorry, but don't blame a drop in morale or a loss of momentum on a blown call by the ref. Ahhh, it so very refreshing to see someone on here finally with some common sense! Very very well said Mr. Gerrard!! ;D |
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pop
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Post by pop on Jan 4, 2011 8:27:24 GMT -6
At the time of the mis-call on a close game the morale was good and the game was competitive. The question was about the ar messing up a call and taking away the advantage we had. An apology from the ar didnt help. I blew a gasket, yes, but when such an easy call took away a big advantage? I expect better than that from any ref. As for as the morale comment, experienced players do get frustrated when a ref calls fouls and is not consistent.
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Post by socrrulz02 on Jan 4, 2011 11:55:02 GMT -6
At the time of the mis-call on a close game the morale was good and the game was competitive. The question was about the ar messing up a call and taking away the advantage we had. An apology from the ar didnt help. I blew a gasket, yes, but when such an easy call took away a big advantage? I expect better than that from any ref. As for as the morale comment, experienced players do get frustrated when a ref calls fouls and is not consistent. So when your attacker wiffs on the ball in front of goal do you "blow a gasket"? How about when he shanks an easy shot? Or that player that makes a fantastic touch at one end of the field only to dribble the ball out of bounds 20 yards later? Do you continue to berate these players for the remainder of the game? Or better yet, do you let them know after the game that it's all their fault your team lost? No, of course you don't. I can't understand why parents/players/coaches don't realize that the referees are just as human as the players - they're going to make mistakes and they're going to see things differently. Get over it and move on. Or, if you really are that wonderful, become and ref and show everyone how it's done. |
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pop
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Post by pop on Jan 4, 2011 12:36:25 GMT -6
At the time of the mis-call on a close game the morale was good and the game was competitive. The question was about the ar messing up a call and taking away the advantage we had. An apology from the ar didnt help. I blew a gasket, yes, but when such an easy call took away a big advantage? I expect better than that from any ref. As for as the morale comment, experienced players do get frustrated when a ref calls fouls and is not consistent. So when your attacker wiffs on the ball in front of goal do you "blow a gasket"? How about when he shanks an easy shot? Or that player that makes a fantastic touch at one end of the field only to dribble the ball out of bounds 20 yards later? Do you continue to berate these players for the remainder of the game? Or better yet, do you let them know after the game that it's all their fault your team lost? No, of course you don't. I can't understand why parents/players/coaches don't realize that the referees are just as human as the players - they're going to make mistakes and they're going to see things differently. Get over it and move on. Or, if you really are that wonderful, become and ref and show everyone how it's done. I am a ref and have reffed for several years. But offside on a thrown in??? that mistake shouldnt be made by a quality ref at the high school level. |
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Post by oldhattrick3 on Jan 4, 2011 12:50:24 GMT -6
Boy, this thread (and several others in the past) just shows that soccer refs are more sensitive than any other sport I know of.
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