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Post by div1coach222 on Dec 20, 2011 9:07:26 GMT -6
I saw where my thread was edited (which I understand why) about the the officiating at the Font. / Sacred Heart game Saturday the 17th of December. I have seen on several occasions 2 of the 3 officials (who called this game) call games and it is a shame that they continue to call older boys and girls games. Remember it is alright to voice an opinion about a SERVICE that teams are paying for. There are enough good officials who call a good game to reward them with calling older age groups and the officials who are lacking should call younger kids. I know for a fact this is not done and alot of the scheduling is on a buddy system. The officials in question or known by coaches around the area as lacking in the skill of calling a game. When a person calls a game and BOTH teams walk away shaking their heads concerning inconsistent calls game after game the scheduling needs to be adjusted. I would like to see a grading system come into play to reward for a job well done which is used in the work place today. Again I must stress that 90% of the officials do a great job and should be awarded so. In closing the perception out there is that if they played the game and have a high knowledge then they must be able to call the game and that is wrong. I look forward to any responses. P.S. I have called games (not soccer, but adult soft ball) so I understand the responsibilities of officiating.
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Post by miraddydad on Dec 20, 2011 11:15:31 GMT -6
I can only imagine that at times, being an official in any sport must suck. I agree that there are officials that most agree don't do the best job in games. I don't mind as much in games that don't mean anything, but when I see them on the field in important games, I get concerned. On the flip side, there are officials that when I see them on the field, I know there will be a well-called game. I agree that there should be a grading system, and that officials should be held accountable for their style of calling a game.
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Post by div1coach222 on Dec 20, 2011 12:56:06 GMT -6
I agree!
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Post by bhssoccercoach on Dec 20, 2011 13:21:35 GMT -6
We do have a grading system in NW La. this year. The referees association here sent a link to ALL high school coaches that they can use to critique referees after every game if they want to take the time. I know I have used the survey to comment (both good and bad) about referee crews. I would also like to say that, for the most part, the referees in the Shreveport area are very competent and professional.
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Post by laffysoccermom on Dec 20, 2011 14:01:55 GMT -6
I just wanted to share this quote my pastor used in a sermon. He went to a class to get certified to call baseball.
The teacher ended his class saying, "only one man was right all the time, and they crucified him. Good luck!"
I heard from someone that coaches in our area can bar a ref from calling their games. They only have a couple a year that they can bar so they are very selective in using them. Not sure if this is true or not.
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Post by futbolislife on Dec 20, 2011 16:56:52 GMT -6
My 2 cents worth. In most areas, the refs are "graded". And by this I mean very informally. The assignors know the stars from the second teamers. They know who their go to guys and gals are. But unfortunately it comes down to the same old stories. Too many games and just not enough bodies. And not every official is avaible at every time. For many, the game is a hobby, a way to stay connected, enjoyment. Many referees limit their time. I know many referees who tell the assignor things like "you can have me for two games a week, back to back", or "sat morning only", or whatever the theme.
In the end, we must relaize that there are too few really SOLID and STRONG referees to go around any area. You are bound to get the second team at some point. I agree that every player, coach and spectator deserves the best. But that is not reality, it is a fleeting dream that I cannot see a solution to in my lifetime (I am old).
Further, when you look at who is at your game, you always need to wonder, what other game out there am I competing against for referees. Again, the reality is if the top two teams are playing at the same time as you (on an intense rivalry), odds are you will know where you can find your top refs.
And those who know me, know I speak not only as a referee administrator and assignor but as a former coach, player and parent/spectator. Worn all the hats and moaned as loud as anyone else on and maybe more at times.
Right or wrong, today, it is all part of the game we love to play.
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Post by Timbertwin on Dec 20, 2011 21:36:26 GMT -6
It is correct that the home schools may "scratch" specific officials from working any of their matches through that home association during the regular season. That is only available through home associations; no such rights are awarded for a visiting team. For post-season play, officials must be mutually agreed upon.
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Post by div1coach222 on Dec 21, 2011 7:49:08 GMT -6
My original point was that a grading system of some kind would be welcomed. When it comes to officiating we as a society are not ask to have a certain "standard". If you brought your car to a mechanic and you paid for a service, but it takes 3 to 4 times to fix, you are paying each time, you would definately voice your opinion to the shop.. No one said to ban them from officiating, but to schedule at a lower age level where the game is slower and not as intensed. There is also less pressure when calling at lower levels. As for as not having enough refs to schedule that is not accurate. I have friends (certified) who call games and because of the economic times we are in there are many who are looking for more work. I will close by saying again that 90% of the officials that I have seen call games do a pretty darn good job. There are only a few that are lacking and need more training at the lower age level and should be confined to this level in which I see nothing wrong with that.
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Post by soccerB on Dec 21, 2011 13:11:12 GMT -6
My 2 cents worth. In most areas, the refs are "graded". And by this I mean very informally. The assignors know the stars from the second teamers. They know who their go to guys and gals are. But unfortunately it comes down to the same old stories. Too many games and just not enough bodies. And not every official is avaible at every time. For many, the game is a hobby, a way to stay connected, enjoyment. Many referees limit their time. I know many referees who tell the assignor things like "you can have me for two games a week, back to back", or "sat morning only", or whatever the theme. In the end, we must relaize that there are too few really SOLID and STRONG referees to go around any area. You are bound to get the second team at some point. I agree that every player, coach and spectator deserves the best. But that is not reality, it is a fleeting dream that I cannot see a solution to in my lifetime (I am old). Further, when you look at who is at your game, you always need to wonder, what other game out there am I competing against for referees. Again, the reality is if the top two teams are playing at the same time as you (on an intense rivalry), odds are you will know where you can find your top refs. And those who know me, know I speak not only as a referee administrator and assignor but as a former coach, player and parent/spectator. Worn all the hats and moaned as loud as anyone else on and maybe more at times. Right or wrong, today, it is all part of the game we love to play. You are absolutely right not enough good referrees to go around, and not everyone is available all week long. I might also add the lack of a comprehensive referree education program like the kind they have in Europe where less experienced referrees are mentored by more experienced one, referree certification, referree school and so on. There is also a lack of monitoring system in Louisiana where the difference between a "good" and a "bad" referree is mostly by hearsay, not evaluation by peers. By the way, if the vociferating public were officiating the game we would have 200 off side a night, 50 PKs, as much hand ball and everyone would get a red card. Also, the system of assignment as it is in La put an emphasis on a good relationship between the school and the assignor. something you would not have if there was enough trained officials to go around. Finally, they have the very same problem in the Louisiana Soccer Association. The big problem is that all the reform necessary to improve the system in Louisiana would cost a lot of money. The gates barely pay for the officials right now and most school make a bit of money through concessions only, therefore the system will stay as it is for a long time I think.
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Post by Steven Gerrard on Dec 21, 2011 13:48:15 GMT -6
By the way, if the vociferating public were officiating the game we would have 200 off side a night, 50 PKs, as much hand ball and everyone would get a red card. And, if there was a grading system, I think that most parents would be surprised to find out that many of the refs would grade higher then they think that they should grade. I go back to last year when I was in Shreveport watching two teams play (while waiting for my daughters game to start). Over the course of about 10 minutes, the parents complained about 4 different calls/non-calls. In each case, the ref was correct and the parents in the stands were dead wrong. But, they all muttered about the terrible job being done by the center ref.
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Post by futuredemon on Dec 21, 2011 14:00:30 GMT -6
I know that some people may not understand or care for baseball, but I have been a umpire for two years. I am young, 18, but I know and love the game just as much if not more than anyone on the field or in the stands. In case anyone does not know **officiating a game is much more stressful than playing** especially when the game gets close and one wrong or right call can determine the final score. How many times has there been a strong push in the 18 that the team thought they should have gotten two minutes from the final whistle? How many times have the refs "got it wrong." The job of an official is a job based on reputation. If the referee has a bad game then neither team ever wants to see that ref again. If the referee has a good game then most of the times the winners will shake his/her hand and if the losers are mannered..like they should be..they will shake his/her hand as while.
A REFEREES JOB IS NOT EASY. But it should be done correctly
I'm in favor of there to be a physical examination part on the officials evaluation.
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Post by futbolislife on Dec 21, 2011 16:49:22 GMT -6
Some points. The minute anyone says, let's put the "less experienced" referees on lower games and limit what they do, everyone WILL scream because games aren't covered. Everyone DEMANDS that a service be suplied at a certain time and place regardless of manpower avaibility. Take that car to your shop and demand it be done at a certain time and see what happens. Everyone expects a body to be avaiable at any time on any day and then upset when the body isnt adequate.
And to say that LSA is to blame certainly indicates your lack of understanding and knowledge of the referee instructional program in La. You can throw money at it all day long. You cant force a horse to water. There are MANY educational opportunities for referees to grow and approx 90% make no effort. We have FIFA referees come in for training, we have 1200 referees in La and we have 75 show up.
The problem does not lie there. The real core problems lie in turmover of referees on an annual basis. PERIOD. In any given year, 2/3 of the referees have less than 1 year experience. Why do they leave in such droves? Abuse is the first reason. MOST coaches or parents would NEVER scream at a player for making a mistake becasue we understand that mistakes are part of the player development process. But is a referee equal there? Absolutely not. The referee is expected to be perfect the first day they enter the field and get better every outig after that. Treat your players like you treat referees and see how long the player will play.
And as one poster stated, most parents AND coaches have no idea what the Laws really say or how they are applied. Certainly most parents have no clue (not all). Everytime I have told upset parents or coaches about a decision made by a referee and I tell them Law and how it was right, they naturally tell me I have no clue. And so it goes.
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Post by happyjack on Dec 21, 2011 18:51:14 GMT -6
I'm all in favor for a grading system for officials, as long as one is put in place for coaches as well!
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Post by futuredemon on Dec 21, 2011 21:01:04 GMT -6
Some points. The minute anyone says, let's put the "less experienced" referees on lower games and limit what they do, everyone WILL scream because games aren't covered. Everyone DEMANDS that a service be suplied at a certain time and place regardless of manpower avaibility. Take that car to your shop and demand it be done at a certain time and see what happens. Everyone expects a body to be avaiable at any time on any day and then upset when the body isnt adequate. And to say that LSA is to blame certainly indicates your lack of understanding and knowledge of the referee instructional program in La. You can throw money at it all day long. You cant force a horse to water. There are MANY educational opportunities for referees to grow and approx 90% make no effort. We have FIFA referees come in for training, we have 1200 referees in La and we have 75 show up. The problem does not lie there. The real core problems lie in turmover of referees on an annual basis. PERIOD. In any given year, 2/3 of the referees have less than 1 year experience. Why do they leave in such droves? Abuse is the first reason. MOST coaches or parents would NEVER scream at a player for making a mistake becasue we understand that mistakes are part of the player development process. But is a referee equal there? Absolutely not. The referee is expected to be perfect the first day they enter the field and get better every outig after that. Treat your players like you treat referees and see how long the player will play. And as one poster stated, most parents AND coaches have no idea what the Laws really say or how they are applied. Certainly most parents have no clue (not all). Everytime I have told upset parents or coaches about a decision made by a referee and I tell them Law and how it was right, they naturally tell me I have no clue. And so it goes. I have sat next to parents from my old high school team and they do seem to get on the referee over small things, which is obvious and just like anyother team. I explain advantage calls, why this isn't a foul, and sometimes everyone disagrees with calls on the field. Even Ars and Centers can disagree on how harsh a foul or how to handle what happens after the foul and after the foul is called. Its all part of the game
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Post by div1coach222 on Dec 22, 2011 7:38:28 GMT -6
All good points and yes I sit in the stands, listen to parents make remarks about calls and I explain why the official made a particular call and waited to see who gained the advantage (usually what most parents do not know) before making a call. I am not talking about those officials and that is why I stated that 9 out of 10 officials call a good game. There are some officials I know comments have been made to schedulers about their handling,calling of games who continue to be rewarded and calling high school games.Clearly whether it be skill or physical should not be put in this position. I do not feel it is to much to ask that some type of common sense grading can be put into place without breaking the bank...
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Post by mlswg502 on Dec 22, 2011 8:40:51 GMT -6
Being involved in assigning in both a small area with few officials and in some of the assignments for LSA's State Cup, I can tell you I wish it were as easy as div1coach222 states. There are times where there are simply not enough bodies to even cover the games on the schedule. Note that I said bodies and not qualified people. When this happens, assignors work hard to match all available officials to games that fit his/her abilities. In addition, you can take smaller areas that may have 20-25 high school officials and they may have fewer than 10 that are capable of doing a center on any game let alone a competitive game. When this happens, there is no doubt that someone somewhere is going to be unhappy with the quality of the officials when there are 10 games over 5-6 sites on a given night, but in most cases the teams will be unwilling to move the game. A grading system doesn't help this issue. Parents (sometimes coaches) , who are often times not knowledgeable (NOT ALWAYS), not abusing officials could help this issue, but I doubt that will ever happen. So until then, we as officials and assignors have to continue to work with one another to mentor each other and to help advance all of the officials in our areas.
I would think that we all agree that in most of the major areas of the state that there are at least a couple of officials who we would all take on most of our games. These officials are usually the ones that put time in to becoming better officials, attend training sessions offered by the state, and remain professional. These are also the officials we hope to see when the playoff games arrive. With that said, these officials are not always available and should not constantly see the same teams.
Sorry, I don't have much time this morning so this is not really polished and/or may sound like I am rambling.
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Post by futbolislife on Dec 22, 2011 10:04:49 GMT -6
That's the rub....WHO does the grading? Coaches? Well USSF tried it at the USL level and I tried it as well with an amateur league. And what happens is the VAST majority of the time the losing coach says the referee was awful and the winning coach says he was great. IT JUST DOESN'T WORK! Simply beccasue many (not all) have no clue what a good referee is or if they are right or wrong in their decision making processes. I've seen FIFA referees do a youth game and listen to people complain how bad they were and why were they wearing a funny badge. Talk about uneducated.
So let's ask the referee community to grade the officials. SO who now? Well we have a corp of trained and qualified assessors. They can do it? Well there are less then 20 around the state. how do we compensate those folks? Because they will need to be paid. I'm sure the schools will be more than happy to kick in additional money to cover it. The schools have so much money in their soccer budgets, no doubt this will be very well received. And it is NOT an LSA issue so not even up for debate here. Perhaps you can petition LHSAA to foot that bill. But beyond that, most assessors are also working officials. So using them makes them unavailable for working games at that time as well. And those are usually the better officials as well.
I hear this discussion EVERY HS season. Bottom line - not enough bodies, too many games, too little resources, too many demands from schools and teams and coaches. And those who want to put this on LSA, LSA nor the State Referee Committee has no jurisdiction or authority on HS referees.
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Post by happyjack on Dec 22, 2011 10:41:01 GMT -6
When I watch a soccer game as a spectator, I make a point not to sit near anyone I know. I try and sit as far from people as possible. Uneducated fans constantly on the referee, or else they are turning to me for an explanation of every call or non-call. I've found it is easier to sit away on my own, and more enjoyable.
Although it is always amusing to listen to a parent explain that it can't be a foul because there was no intent, it was an accident. Or why it can't be offside. Or why a ball kicked from 1-yard away into a players arm against their body must always be a "hand ball".
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Post by div1coach222 on Dec 22, 2011 11:01:11 GMT -6
In life things are usually not easy or simple, but that does not mean we do not try to improve. I feel it is worth while to throw ideas out and get things out in the open so all can come together and achieve a better result. I feel strongly about this and especially when OUR children are involved.. If we as a society do not have the courage to do this (communicate and IMPROVE) then we will become stagnent. Not simple, but we can do better and not all at once. We can start with baby steps and see how that goes... This is my last comment on this subject and good luck to all during this soccer season (my last season, daughter graduating and playing college ball)...
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Post by futbolislife on Dec 22, 2011 11:12:49 GMT -6
And my last comment, I did some research and found out who the crew was in the game where the officials were so bad. To say any of the three are incapable of boys middles or boys games is ridiculous. They are currently doing and have done much higher level games than HS. To say these gents cant routinely handle a D1 girls game is off base.
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