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Post by div1coach222 on Dec 23, 2011 14:16:13 GMT -6
After reading thru other threads and responses (under the officiating section) I can see who reads and responds on it (this board). Looks like I stirred up a hornets nest because as the saying goes "you cannot let a fox watch over the chicken coup". Most are and if not all of you are either officials are definately connected with the status quo. I can only ASSUME this, (I hate do this this ) but all of the responses I see (on other threads and discussions under officiating) is how each of you would rule or why you did make a certain call.I came on this board thinking it was impartial and looking to better soccer in Louisiana, but I can see this not to be the case..How stupid of me, Good Luck to all
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Post by Steven Gerrard on Dec 23, 2011 14:47:51 GMT -6
From an Unknown source: "A team is a reflection of its coach" If you as a coach spend a lot of your time complaining about officiating, and challenging officials, then you can expect your players to do it, and ultimately this will cause the officials to spend more time on behavior than officiating. Goodness, I can't tell you how true this is. I am a coach and a ref, and as a coach I always try to tell my players to stop complaining about calls/non-calls and to play soccer instead. And, as a ref, I can tell you that the teams that complain (or, lets call it what it really is, whinning) the most about calls/non-calls are the teams who has a coach who spends most of his time on the sideline complaining about calls/non-calls. And, as a ref, I have learned that the complaining makes no difference whatsoever. In the majority of the cases the referee thinks that he/she made the correct call, regardless of your complaints (or, that they didn't see it and therefore nothing that they can do about it). And, those teams that complain are typically the ones who fold towards the end of the game. If you learn one thing from officiating a game, it would be that.
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Post by Steven Gerrard on Dec 23, 2011 15:04:07 GMT -6
I saw where my thread was edited (which I understand why) about the the officiating at the Font. / Sacred Heart game Saturday the 17th of December. I have seen on several occasions 2 of the 3 officials (who called this game) call games and it is a shame that they continue to call older boys and girls games. Remember it is alright to voice an opinion about a SERVICE that teams are paying for. There are enough good officials who call a good game to reward them with calling older age groups and the officials who are lacking should call younger kids. I know for a fact this is not done and alot of the scheduling is on a buddy system. The officials in question or known by coaches around the area as lacking in the skill of calling a game. When a person calls a game and BOTH teams walk away shaking their heads concerning inconsistent calls game after game the scheduling needs to be adjusted. I would like to see a grading system come into play to reward for a job well done which is used in the work place today. Again I must stress that 90% of the officials do a great job and should be awarded so. In closing the perception out there is that if they played the game and have a high knowledge then they must be able to call the game and that is wrong. I look forward to any responses. P.S. I have called games (not soccer, but adult soft ball) so I understand the responsibilities of officiating. Div1coach222, before I am accused of misquoting you, I have decided to go ahead and include your original post (above) that started this thread that calls us out to keep the "status quo." You raised concerns over the state of officiating in Louisiana, and you have received responses from a number of knowledgable people. However, you don't like what you hear (and trurthfully, those who typed the responses probably didn't like their responses). The problem is that your complaints are not new. They have been brought up in the past and unfortunately, the solutions are not as easy as you may think (and we wish that there were). First, you said that there are enough good officials to call the older games. In response, it was pointed out that this is not always true. Further, it was also pointed out that the officials in question are some of the "good officials." Second, you "know for a fact" that assignors do not reward the good officials with calling older age groups and make the officials who are lacking call younger kids. However, knowledgable people have pointed out to you that this is not true. You said that "alot of the scheduling is on a buddy system" and again, this was pointed out to you to not be true (and, as a ref, I can assure you that this is not true). Next, you said that you want to see a grading system come into play. In response, the refs say great, bring it on. However, futbolislife correctly pointed out a lot of the problems with a grading system for refs. Do you have solutions? Who would you have grade the refs? Other refs? That already goes on. Trust us, the assignors in each area know who are their strong refs and who are their weak ones. And, a lot of times, there is not a lot of choice. It always kills me when people think that refs just grow on trees. Keeping refs is typically one of the hardest things to do as a soccer club. Trust me, you have to be mentally tough to do it, and most are not. Don't get frustrated by responses that you deem to be "staying with the status quo." Trust me, if you have workable solutions, there are plenty of ears. Coming on this board and raising this issue as a concern is certainly something you are welcome to do. And, something that people should continue to do. However, don't get upset when knowledgable people respond with reasons why your suggestions can't work. Come up with better suggestions.
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Post by happyjack on Dec 23, 2011 15:11:37 GMT -6
I have seen on several occasions 2 of the 3 officials (who called this game) call games and it is a shame that they continue to call older boys and girls games. Remember it is alright to voice an opinion about a SERVICE that teams are paying for. Well, I can see how people can be confused about you and not speaking poorly of the officials on this game. Knowing the crew, if I was a coach in a critical game I'd be happy to have all 3. Is it possible they didn't have their best game that day? Sure, that is always possible. But to say it is a shame that they continue to work high level games is a gross exaggeration and quite funny!
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Post by soccerB on Dec 23, 2011 17:41:40 GMT -6
I am sorry to see that Div1coach took some people opinion the wrong way. personally I found the discussion enlightening. I think everyone knows on this board how hard the job of the referree is. The very nature of the rules we have to enforce, make the job difficult here is a quote from wikipedia about the off side rule: " The assistant referees' task with regards to offside can be difficult, as they need to keep up with attacks and counter-attacks, consider which players are in an offside position when the ball is played, and then determine whether and when the offside-positioned players become involved in active play. Some researchers believe that offside officiating errors are "optically inevitable". It has been argued that human beings and technological media are incapable of accurately detecting an offside position quickly enough to make a timely decision. Sometimes it simply is not possible to keep all the relevant players in the visual field at once." and that's just one function of the AR. by the way, I know I am in the wrong post here but since this thread has caught alot of people attention I have found this FIFA flash player description of the off side rule (maybe it has been posted somewhere else already) and I am thinking about posting it in the general section. I just want your two cents on it since it is a great educational tool for everyone. www.fifa.com/lotg/football/en/flash/start.htmlLandon Donovan was not off side here. Merry Christmas to all.
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Post by happyjack on Dec 23, 2011 19:49:37 GMT -6
D1 coach-I'd be interested if you'd provide details on what specifically these officials did or didn't do that was so bad that it is a shame they officiate games at this level. Please feel free to PM me if you don't want to post it here. If you PM me with specifics I'd be happy to have a word with the 3 officials. Two of them have read this thread and like most officials are always looking for feedback as to how they can improve.
The ball is in your half of the pitch
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Post by futbolislife on Dec 23, 2011 21:13:07 GMT -6
SO let's take a different approach folks. Some of you may not be aware (I know Ray is) of what is actually going on in La with referee training. The LSA State Referee Committee (SRC) has been doing a lot of things in the last 3 years towards referee training. At the point where some states are actually copying our programs. When we look at events like Regionals, La referees are consistently performing extremely well getting more than their share of awards and recognitions, invites to Nationals, Developmental Academies, etc. What do they do and offer?
We have made some strides towards improving the instructional program and are currently discussing more improvements for the future. Over the course of the year, we offer referee academies which are not exclusive. Open to all who wish to participate using our top referees as mentors, and assessors as well as classroom training. This past year, we offered a referee academy which was for our top level referees and brought in a former FIFA referee, state and national assessors. Classroom training and film clips of the officials. Academies are usually held at the large tournaments. At smaller tournaments, we offer field training. We send one of our senior officials to a tournament to watch referees and work with them over the course of a day. At several times of the year, we offer to any area a training session. The local area sets up a location, and the SRC sends an instructor to discuss any topic(s) requested by the local area and the duration is set by the local area as well. Last year, we had an open session all day with a former FIFA referee. Every summer, we send officials to regionals (great training and every game is assessed) and ODP camps. To improve the level of officiating at state cups, referees must watch an online presentation and pass a test to work at state cups. Further the SRC State Games assignor and State Assignor coordinator monitor or assign every assignment. Further, LSA has been extremely generous in funding travel so that state cups are not manned by local crews only. IN fact, over 90% of games at state cups have a referee in the middle that comes from a "neutral" club. Over the last 3 years, the number of referee complaints at state cups have dropped dramatically.
Now to the rubs. With all these opportunities, maybe 10% come to the trough. And all of these events are FREE, no cost. Only the time. ODP camps are a great example. Last year, invites were sent to EVERY referee in La asking who wanted to attend. All expenses are paid and the training is the best in the region with National, Fifa referees and national assessors and instructors. And every year, we have to beg people to fill our 14-18 spots. We have all these opportunities and few take advantage. And we cannot force people to attend.
Over the last 3 years, La has required every referee to retake the referee test with a passing score to re-register. This is one of the few things we can require.
We must also realize that the La SRC budget is very small since we have so few referees. SO many things just cannot be accomplished because of budget restraints. But I think La SRC has done a remarkable job with the resources available. Does that mean it cant get better? Of course not. The SRC is always looking for new ways and approaches. But they have to fit in the budget.
When we talk about grading, we are talking about the Assessment program. In La, we have just over 1200 referees. About 50-75 are above the entry level grade 8 referee. These referees are always being assessed. But these are also the folks attending the academies, ODP, training events. It's the other grade 8 and grade 9 referees we really want to get to. At this time, the way we do that is with the Field Trainer program and hopefully the local clinics we offer.
Over the years, there has often been talk about grading the referees (assessing). And the harsh reality is money and manpower. The assessors are the p[eople trained to perform this function. And we have about 12 in the state. SO let's look at the numbers. Lets say we try to assess 500 officials a year. Right off, lets say $40 per game for each assessor. That $20,000 is almost the entire SRC budget. But let's say someone else funded it. The manpower available would require every assessor to assess over 42 games a year. And many of the assessors are active referees. That just wouldn't happen, not a realistic approach with the manpower available.
And one last point in regards to LHSAA. While many referees working HS are USSF referees being trained under LSA and the SRC, there are a BUNCH who are not. More than many think by the posts I've read. There are many people who take that online quiz and referee HS and attend no training offered by the SRC. And those "bodies" are absolutely needed to fill the gaps. As Ray stated, referees are always the after thought. In N.O., many teams play in the afternoon because f the shortage of lit fields. Very few referees can take every afternoon off work. So those games consistently see the same referees every day.
There are many referee problems that are not able to be addressed because they fall into other people's venue to fix. Afternoon games for example.
And again, the SRC is so aware that we have referees that may not perform up to expectations. The SRC is always looking for ways to improve the program that meet budget restraints and can get people to the table wanting to learn. It's really just that simple. Over the years, the SRC has found things that work and things that don't. The Academies went through several cycles to find a model that worked.
One of the big problems is referee turnover. Every year, La loses 1/3 of its pool for various reasons. Every year we train the same number. SO our pool never grows and 2/3 of the pool always has 1 yr or less experience. And this is not unique to La. Those statistics are common in every state in the US.
And finally, La is not working in a bubble. There are annual meetings attended by members of the SRC at USSF workshops and other events (USYSA workshops). States share ideas and experiences. Our academy is actually a modification of the Fla Academy program at a much smaller scale.
Our goal is always improvement. Personally I am very proud of what La has accomplished in it's referee program. There have been many success stories. But we are certainly not happy with status quo and the entire SRC spends a great deal of time trying to create new opportunities for training that allows every referee who wants to get better an opportunity to do just that.
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Post by div1coach222 on Dec 26, 2011 14:39:06 GMT -6
happyjack- Thanks for the offer but I will decline. I think you are genuine with your offer, but after the dialogue I have received concerning this issue where all the officials basically are the same, but the problem lies with the ignorant spectators and the hot head coaches. All who responded I make that comment after reading your reasons why I feel the way I do. Remeber I also at one time called games (adult softball) so I know what it takes to call a game. Please quit saying woes is me we have such a hard job, it just is not so. Because of health reasons I no longer coach, but after traveling to watch the game in question I felt I would make a suggestion to better the officiating in Louisiana. I did not know this message board is basically monitored by the faternity of officials. I will continue to be one of those ignorant spectators you all feel is the real reason for individuals wanted some checks and balances. I respect the individuals who aknowledge that a UNBIAS grading system would be nice, but the money is not there to fund such a systyem. To all the rest keep up with this rah, rah, rah board..... Adios
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Post by happyjack on Dec 27, 2011 12:12:48 GMT -6
Dont know of you can make a fair comparison between umpiring softball and you stand behind the plate to soccer where you must run and be close to play in order to see and call fouls. Much different aspect and much more going on in a soccer match than a softball match
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Post by laffysoccermom on Dec 29, 2011 13:58:32 GMT -6
Question to refs: say a parent let their mouth over run their brain during a game and realizes it during the course of a game, would you appreciate it if after the game, the parent apologized or should one just leave it alone and try to do better.
I have been the parent and wanted to apologize but wasn't sure if it would make it worse.
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Post by barnacle13 on Dec 29, 2011 14:41:11 GMT -6
Question to refs: say a parent let their mouth over run their brain during a game and realizes it during the course of a game, would you appreciate it if after the game, the parent apologized or should one just leave it alone and try to do better. I have been the parent and wanted to apologize but wasn't sure if it would make it worse. That's a tough one. I know most refs just want to get out of there after a match. Hanging around even for an apology I'd think would just have the entire stands, and both benches lined up to say, " Yeah, about that moron comment, um, sorry!" If I were the ref I think I'd just rather head on home and hope that you figured out that you made yourself look bad and can learn from that experience. What I tend to see here from refs is they know they are not perfect and they try to learn from their mistakes. As parents, players, coaches, spectators we should all strive to do the same. I'm usually much more critical of the coaching decisions in games than I am of the refs, because I've worn both hats and the coaching seemed the easier of the two. It's that Monday morning quarterback syndrome I guess. Very easy to question coaching decisions on personnel and tactics, but it's impossible to see what the referee saw (especially the blind ones---dripping sarcasm here).
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Post by happyjack on Dec 29, 2011 15:10:13 GMT -6
I rarely listen to parents, or even coaches, hardly even realize they are screaming, just background noise to me. But every now and then one seems to do their best to get my attention, and occasionally they do. I do my best to get closer them and remind them that we don't need parents to play a soccer game. That usually gets them to quiet down. For those that persist in making an ass of themselves, there are ways to get them to be quiet.
As far as an apology after the game, I would doubt the sincerity of it. Much like a coach who rides you the entire game and after shakes your hand and says "good jib ref" blames you wonder how much he would berate you if you did a bad job
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Post by laffysoccermom on Dec 29, 2011 17:10:20 GMT -6
That's kind of what I thought when I decided not to approach the ref. I just try to keep my mouth shut with a big emphasis on try.
Just wanted the input... At the end of day all we can try to do is learn from our mistakes and try not to repeat them.
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Post by sonics3 on Dec 31, 2011 8:29:28 GMT -6
With all of the negative posts directed towards the referees, I wanted to commend all of the refs and the assignor of the Mandeville tournament this week for a great job. Thanks to all of you.
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Post by dalglish on Jan 12, 2012 12:23:53 GMT -6
To the HS refs out there, and following a comment made by happyjack, lets see a ranking of the coaches (that should be very entertaining!) - I am assuming happyjack, you would rate the coaches based on who complains and screams the most at refs? For the sake of a good laugh by all soccer fanatics in this state, maybe the moderators can set up a subject along these lines... Am fairly certain that almost every coach in this state screams at refs at one point or another during a season.....because let's face it, refs are human and will make mistakes (some will make many more mistakes than others...), which no doubt will lead to a coach (even the very calm and quiet ones) to yell or complain...
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Post by furriner on Jan 12, 2012 12:33:14 GMT -6
before Happy gets his chance, someone who writes more than me once said, "It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt". some coaches fall into the latter category, sadly.
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Post by happyjack on Jan 12, 2012 19:39:20 GMT -6
Before we go down that road, let's instead start a thread about how many times an official changed a call because a coach screamed at the referee...
One of my favorite coaches once told me I was missing a great game. My AR told him "yeah, we know, because they assigned us to yours instead.". The coach laughed so hard he didn't say a word the rest of the match.
Another was getting yelled at and the Ref told him "coach, let me know when it's all out of your system and we'll start again." I haven't had a chance to use that one yet but I certainly will at some point.
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Post by laffysoccermom on Jan 12, 2012 20:23:20 GMT -6
I love it when refs can put us in our place with a smile and sense of humor.
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Post by futbolislife on Jan 16, 2012 14:04:26 GMT -6
Cant we all just get along? :-)
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dulac
All-District
Posts: 204
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Post by dulac on Jan 16, 2012 14:50:38 GMT -6
daglish you are sadly mistaken! Have you not read the majority of responses on this board. ALL officials are created equal and the only problem with soccer in Louisiana is the loud mouth coaches and ignorant spectators, just ask them and they will tell you so. Right happyjack? Seen one official call a game and you have seen them all. The officials in Louisiana live in a vacuum where there no difference in job performance by individuals. No other place in society is this true, but ownly in their little world. Div1coach loves to stir the pot, don't you? Nowhere on this board could anyone deduce all officials are created equal and live in a vacuum. As a matter of fact, it appears to me everyone, except Div1coach, is on the same page when it comes to agreeing there are different skilled levels of refs throughout the state. There are always going to be refs better than others. There's always going to be coaches who prefer some refs over others. There's always going to be refs who prefer some coaches over others. There are many factors as to why this is. ALL refs have different styles. No ref will ever ref a game exactly as another ref, just as no two players are the same. All refs are NOT created equal and we know it and are glad about it. All refs are taught the rules, but some refs know how to "bend the book" better than others. Some refs don't ever "bend the book" and will tell you they never will. I've traveled to many states in my ref career, and believe it or not, La has some of the best refs in our region, and most of our "travel" coaches will tell you just that. You don't have to take my word as gospel, but I'll bet if you were to take a poll, I would be proven correct.
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