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Post by div1coach222 on Dec 22, 2011 11:14:26 GMT -6
One last thought, I have read many responses concerning parents saying how bad of a job refs. are doing. I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT THAT read what I said that 9 out 10 do what I feel is a good job. The other 1 out of 10 is what I am concerned about. The 1 out of 10 who are calling games of importance and basically should not be put in that position. Get off of parents criticizing refs. that is not what I have been saying. I am talking about very knowledgeable people watching a game for the love of the game with NO sibling playing in and NO concern who wins! You have quite of few people like me who do such a thing. I attend quite of few games where MY sibling is not playing because I love the game I once played!
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Post by futbolislife on Dec 22, 2011 11:17:37 GMT -6
And the referees on that game, 2 out of the 3 were actually "graded" in the last 6 months by an impartial observer trained in assessing and evaluating referee performances.
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Post by div1coach222 on Dec 22, 2011 11:20:52 GMT -6
Sir (futolislife) I am sure you were at the game to make this comment so all I can say is that is your opinion. If you were not there then basically me being "way off base" is only an opinion without first hand knowledge. Just for the record my knowledge of these officials goes way beyond high school soccer! Sorry I had to respond to this comment!
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Post by soccerB on Dec 22, 2011 11:25:07 GMT -6
I humbly disagree with those who says it is not an LSA problem as well. In my opinion LSA is the major training ground for LHSAA referees even if it is not designed to be that way. Most, HS refs work the LSA games as well, and it is alot easier to learn how to work a game when you start with earlier group like U-10 U-12 and then move to U-14 U-16 games. Eventhough some rules are different like on substitutions for example the main body of rules applies to both games. You gain valuable experience as you move up in age group and it definitely translate into better game management in HS game. I cannot imagine giving a game to a ref that just passed that online LHSAA test with no field experience at all. In theory, he/she can ref a game but in practice I doubt it. That's why you cannot separate LSA ref education and LHSAA's.
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Post by futbolislife on Dec 22, 2011 11:26:39 GMT -6
I stated a fact. They WERE graded in the past 6 months and passed. And you cannot compare your knowledge of these officials to me since you likely have no clue who I am. But most here do and fully undertsand my breadth of knowledge of the officials in all of La and the referee program in this state.
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Post by div1coach222 on Dec 22, 2011 11:41:59 GMT -6
Sir the difference between your opinion and mine is I feel there is room for improvement where as you feel all is perfect and if a ref. is certified then he must call a great game. Well in all parts of society where as it maybe a doctor or electrician there are people who perform well and others who do not. Maybe with refs. (in your eyes) they do not have a difference of skill level. I truly believe that if you polled individuals with a high level of soccer knowledge they will disagree with you, but for nowI must humbly apologize. I did not realize the unique individuals who call these games.. Good Luck...
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Post by furriner on Dec 22, 2011 11:42:47 GMT -6
part of me is starting to wonder if soccer referees should be more like football or basketball refs. Remove "advantage" from the game and just call every "trifling" foul. Like Happy or FIL, I was not able to watch this game, but I get the feeling that a number of the "bad calls" are a result of referees applying a "wait and see" approach. The uninitiated can see this as being indecisive.
Also, if Div1coach222 was as knowledgable of the referee circuit as he claims, he would know all three of those officials by name, be aware that they have been around for several years at Regionals, ODP, adult leagues etc and also know who Happy and FIL are.....
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Post by div1coach222 on Dec 22, 2011 11:52:34 GMT -6
I love all these people who make statements by assuming something to be factual when all they can do is assume what and who I know. I FEEL this board is a rah rah for the status quo and if you dare to have a difference of opinion well then they attack. There is nothing to change and to all keep up the GREAT work...Does that make all you officails feel better, I sure hope so. I have definately seen the light!!
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Post by futbolislife on Dec 22, 2011 13:00:10 GMT -6
Not once did I or anyone state the referee level was perfect. Far from it. But your proposed solution cannot work. And especially at the High School level for reasons we havent even begun to discuss here. We have been there and done that. I just pray for the day when referee perfection reaches the level of coaching and player perfection. Maybe I just found my Christmas wish....May all of you have the absoluetly perfect game, regardless of where you see the game. Merry Christmas.
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Post by div1coach222 on Dec 22, 2011 13:10:10 GMT -6
Please do not put words in mine or anyone elses mouth. At NO time did anyone (except for you) want or EXPECT perfection, we just want to make something good a lil better. On this board that seems to be a crime. To all officials who read this board I do appreciate the JOB you do because as I stated in the beginning I have called games before (adult softball) and feel your pain....
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Post by div1coach222 on Dec 22, 2011 13:11:33 GMT -6
To all ,whether we agree to disagree remember the reason for the season and to all have a GREAT CHRISTMAS....
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Post by Steven Gerrard on Dec 22, 2011 13:35:19 GMT -6
munch, munch
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Post by div1coach222 on Dec 22, 2011 13:44:27 GMT -6
YOU MADE MY DAY, THAT LAST POST WAS PRICELESS!!
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Post by tonygalinto on Dec 22, 2011 15:19:38 GMT -6
While I guess that div1coach222 last comment on the subject was actually was his 6th to last comment on his subject. If a referee was this indecisive in a game I'm sure div1coach222 would say he definitely wasn't qualified to call the game.
Merry Christmas to all
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Post by div1coach222 on Dec 23, 2011 6:22:34 GMT -6
I will always respond when someone takes words "out of context" and or "misleads and ASSUMES something about me". Your comment concerning my traits or character while you DO NOT KNOW ME seems to be common practice on this board. That does not surprise me and again this is a great rah rah board and I will try to keep ALL my comments positive and not dare to create a difference of opinion. All, keep up the GREAT work and please do not change a thing....Now I am definately on the program!
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Post by div1coach222 on Dec 23, 2011 6:54:34 GMT -6
tonygalinto, you responded by saying I am indecisive because I responded 6 times after my last comment statement. futbolislife responded 3 times after the same comment (reply 12 at 12:12 yesterday) where is your negative comment concerning him Oh wait I see he is part of the status quo so we do not want to go there.... The hypocrisy on this board is making me nauseous....
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Post by div1coach222 on Dec 23, 2011 7:04:10 GMT -6
hit wrong key it was the 19th reply..
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Post by coachray40 on Dec 23, 2011 11:00:54 GMT -6
div1coach222--I can weigh in to tell you that the responses you are getting are from some knowledgeable and EXTREMELY qualified individuals. Their opinions are not hypocritical but very very real.
I'm not here to get into a mud fight with you or anyone else, but I will offer some thoughts--ones I consider to be qualified as well after 44 years of playing, coaching, administrating, reffing, and working to improve soccer here and elsewhere ( I will also qualify my remarks by stating I am a referee, both indoor and outdoor, and an assignor):
--I too have been critical of the growth of the quality of officiating in LA in the past, though I do believe that in the last 3 years, LSA has made great strides with LA referee academies and more and stronger training classes. More LA referees have been chosen to attend regionals as representatives of our state. Recently, referee mentoring programs have been instituted for tournament weekends in BRSA and Lafayette. Bill Rushing--LSA State Referee Committee chairman, and Dr Jose Cordova--State Referee Administrator, are both good, honorable men who have a firm grasp on the status of refereeing in the state. They have worked very hard to increase the levels of competence and administration for the state and have done a good job. I don't know that coming on LAPrep and complaining is necessarily fair until you have sat down and spoken to either of these gentlemen directly.
--LHSAA has no referee development plan, so if you want to complain about education--start with LHSAA. LSA is the primary soccer entity in this state, with HS a very very distant second. That being said, the referee pool is the referee pool, regardless of governing entity. Getting LHSAA to do more to educate and improve referees would be a help. They just piggy back LSA's work
--Referee education must come first. Every time somebody has a bad experience with a referee (notice, I didn't say that the ref had bad game), the first thing everyone wants is a GRADING SYSTEM, so we can "get rid of the unqualified refs." Well, if you aren't satisfied with the quality of officiating--what is the method that you want to employ to make them better? A grading system, the parameters of which you havent defined (that's the hard part), does nothing to raise the level of officiating in LA. So, if we use a grading system, and at the end only 10% of the current officials are deemed "acceptable", then what? Is your program prepared to pay $500 per game to ensure you get the supposedly best referees out there? At that point it becomes a simple case of supply and demand. When confronted with taking a "top graded official" and paying through the nose, or taking a second level official and paying less--what would you do? No program in the state can afford to start referees into a bidding war--there are way more games to ref than refs for games (hold that thought). In the end, you have to find a way to make your refs get better--incentives aren't it, because as I said, there are way more games to ref state wide at all levels. Refs will find games to ref regardless, so the idea of grading them isn't a way to give them "incentive". Almost all referees I know like to ref, but all of them have their times of feeling more or less confident. Increase their education and confidence, and they will get better.
--as a HS coach, you are allowed three scratches for officials every year. If, as you say, 9 out 10 officials are okay, then scratch the ones you don't like. I regularly scratched officials that I had issues with--all because of their attitude rather than competence. Do your homework and remove who you would prefer not to have. Somebody you scratch might be the favorite of someone else. If you don't remove referees then accept what you get.
--I really believe that before you complain about officials, become one. And then DO GAMES. First, you will learn about the rigors of officiating, second, you will learn about angles of sight, game management, and the application of the laws from a objective point of view. Third, you may learn that you don't understand the laws of the game as well as you think you do--which by the way is THE SINGLE BIGGEST PROBLEM WITH COACHES AND PARENTS IN THIS STATE. Becoming a ref helped me as a coach. If you havent done it, and done it for a while, then you cant complain about it.
--Next, become an assignor and try to understand THAT responsibility. Nobody ever thinks about the referee until the end of the process. Teams set up games and dates, clubs set up tournaments, LSA and indoor facilities have their leagues, all doing so with tons of phone calls, emails, back and forth to get the fields, times, dates, and match-ups they want. THEN they just fax, email or send that schedule to the referee assignor and never look back, just expecting to see a set of refs show up. There is no follow up in most cases, no interaction with the assignor for these matches. Of course, the coach goes berserk if an assignor calls and asks if he can change his game time from 1:00 to 3:00 in order to get refs--"Whatta ya mean I cant get refs, I scheduled this game X amount of days/weeks/months ago!!" Well guess what, SO DID EVERYONE ELSE. I find the statement that referee assignments are some sort of cronyism to be about as uneducated and ignorant as it comes. Assignors work very hard to make sure the highest end officials are on the highest end games. There is a lot that goes into being an assignor, and sometimes you just have to work with whats available to you. I find it regularly amazing that assignors are able to cover the games in LA as well as they do.
--Why is it that we allow coaches and teams to come up with every possible excuse for under-performance yet we expect perfection from the officials? "Well, we were missing five starters, we were tired from a tournament this past weekend, we played some JV players, we had more possession, we really were the better team, blah, blah, blah." Referees are taking part in the season with all of its challenges just the same as you and your teams are. Refs get tired too, refs have personal issues that might affect their attitudes, Refs get injured, refs do really good games but miss a hand ball in the box because of a bad sight line (something that happens in every game and no amount of grading helps). It happens. The fallibility of both the players AND the officials is what make the game what it is. Coach, when your team comes out and plays perfect EVERY GAME then expect the same from the officials (and then don't be surprised when neither happens)
--In summation, I will leave you with two quotes concerning referees. From Barrie Monks, former coach at St Amant and Dutchtown HS, an ODP state staff coach and one of the best around: " If you always go to the field expecting bad refereeing, you'll never be disappointed." Monks wasn't saying the refereeing was going to be bad, what he was saying was that we shouldn't allow ourselves to get caught up in the quality of officiating. Expect the worst, and then in most cases you will be pleasantly surprised. From an Unknown source: "A team is a reflection of its coach" If you as a coach spend a lot of your time complaining about officiating, and challenging officials, then you can expect your players to do it, and ultimately this will cause the officials to spend more time on behavior than officiating. Treat the officials with class and dignity, and expect your players to do the same, and you can expect a lot more quality REFEREEING. I have always made it a point as a coach to tell my players after EVERY GAME, and REGARDLESS of the outcome or quality of the match, to THANK THE REFEREES. We cant play with out them. I also make it a point of telling teams that I officiate each GOOD GAME.
RESPECT goes a long way. Focus on teaching young players to RESPECT the game and learn it. Do the same yourself, and expect it from your parents. Chances are, the officiating will seem better if you. And then, if you end up getting a stinker from a ref (and I acknowledge it does happen), just keep things in perspective--no soccer game result ever changed the world, especially not one in LA.
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Post by soccerB on Dec 23, 2011 11:05:12 GMT -6
that says it all, thanks Coachray
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Post by div1coach222 on Dec 23, 2011 12:07:26 GMT -6
If you read my first thread you will see that I never said whether are not "my" team won or lost. Was I there as a parent or as a spectator? I do both quite frequently. When I am coaching I never blame an official for a lost. I always shake his or her hand and our players ALWAYS do the same. Even if the official is doing a bad job I NEVER assume he or she is not a quality official. Is this person just having a bad day? Are we influencing the play calling with our play? I wait to either I see this person call other games (plural) and or call more of our games before I make a judgement. Also you would be surprised how many coaches and parents (believe it or not many do KNOW the game contrary to what this board believes) communicate concerning play and officiating. There is a difference between some officials and with some quite extensive. This board does not agree with that premiss, but I can do nothing to change that. In closing do not ASSUME (I can only go by what you were implying in your response) that because I feel there are some officials that should be calling lower age levels may it be physical or just ability that I and our team do not treat them with respect. What is really a shame is the officials that maybe in question I have had them call games and they could not ever pick me out of a crowd for being disrespectful on and off the field. I will say that with 44 years of experience and many on this board have more then me, but sometimes when you are staring at the trees you miss the forest. I have over 30 years experience in my field, but I do not know it all and learn from others with with less experience. Again that is in the real world and does not comply here on this board and with officials. Again this is a great rah rah board you ok I am ok just do not give a different opinion!
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