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Post by Deleted on Mar 3, 2015 11:33:35 GMT -6
HS soccer for the most part is a "participation" sport. With the exception of a literal handful of teams, that will likely always be the case.
The problem I see is that there is a complete lack of context with hs soccer.
Winning seems to be the main focal point of everything.
I remember sitting in on a college recruiting Q&A session a while back. The coaches told the players and parents "don't bother sending us a video of you scoring 8 goals against a weak team".
For far too many, the end justifies the means. Competition is a big part of sport as it is life. But again, very seldom is it looked at in the grand scheme.
So, what are or should be the priorities?
More programs being started up? Okay fine. But will that grow the sport's overall popularity? Don't know.
Do we want the best playing the best? Great.
Problem is you can't do both!
Again, without the proper perspective it is unrealistic that the will actually improve with the "separate but equal" mentality.
By the same token, you can't realistically "professionalize" hs soccer. Too many variables.
Of course it can't be done with club soccer either. Not as long as it is money/revenue driven. Unfortunately, there are millions of parents in this country that are willing to write a bigger check thinking they can "buy a better soccer experience" for their child.
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Post by loJic on Mar 3, 2015 12:26:52 GMT -6
GET RID OF ALL DIVISIONS or go to a Relgation/Promotion system. I said this 10 years ago in this website and I say it again. Now, with 4 divisions, we will have a weaker state system than when we had 3 divisions just as 3 divisions is weaker than when we had 2. With more divisions, means more weaker games until the end of the playoffs. We need stronger competition to win the championship and if that means St. Pauls must beat Vandy or vice versa in the Round of 16, so be it. Hey, I have an even better idea--how about we only let the top 16 programs statewide play soccer and then shut everybody else down? After all, none of the other teams statewide are any good, so lets just let Vandebilt, St Pauls, Lafayette, Jesuit, Brother Martin, Acadiana, St Louis and a few choice others play and the heck with the rest. I mean, hey, we wouldnt want to water down the competition level by letting the sport grow to other places. Promo/relegation was bad idea 10 years ago and its a bad idea now. Nobody wants that, especially the smaller division big time schools. Dont think so? Well if the Vandys, St Louis', Universities, Northlakes, Ben Franklins etc wanted to play up and felt like they needed to prove they need to be in the top level, nothing is stopping them from doing so. They can ALL choose to play up in soccer only. But they dont--they all stay right where they are..every year, every redistrict/reclassification period. Thats why there is just NO CREDENCE in any idea of promotion/relegation--its not needed as the schools can all make a choice to move to the highest classification. They just dont. The reason they dont is because HS soccer is exactly that-- A HIGH SCHOOL SPORT. It needs to be dealt with and thought about from the HS sport genre first, and soccer second. Club soccer can use whatever methods necessary to entice players to come from anywhere to play for that club, and individual teams can strengthen and weaken. Big clubs can attract coaching and playing resources from anywhere. Too much time is wasted debating the quality and player differences between HS and Club teams, without having a full understanding of the differences in the implemetation and administration of each. The competitiveness of each HS sport is based more primarily on school size, binding attendance zones, geography and the public/parochial debate. That is why its playoff structure and administration MUST be different than that of club soccer. Ask Sean Esker --now the President of both LSA and the LHSSCA--and Chad Vidrine--a VP in both organizations-- if they deal with each entity the same way. The fact that soccer is moving forward and progressing both on the HS and Club level right now is probably best attributed to these two guys understanding the key differencesbetween the two and working towards creating synergy between the two, rather than trying to make them the same thing. Thats why the LHSSCA has been so successful in changing HS soccer for the better--they realize its a HS sport first and soccer second.They certainly arent on here using their time to talk about silly promo plans. Before anybody else comes in here and wastes more time FANTASIZING about an inappropriate promotion/relegation system, I want you to call up the head coaches at each of the schools I listed above and ask them why they dont all petition to move up into DI. Meanwhile, Ill go tell my principal that we cant have soccer anymore because we arent any good. Coach I understand your point. High school sports should be just that, high school sports. And I can see you think anybody looking to find a solution that doesn't see that, it is what it is, is just wasting their time. I get that your some old time ball coach that has been around the game for a while. A lot of people say you've helped the game progress nicely in your region. So I respect your opinion on this matter. With that said, you and I are on two different planets. And here's why. This state glorifies the high school game ten fold. I'm a big supporter of high school because it brings elements in to the picture that the club game does not offer. But the downfall of high school is that it's seen as the pinnacle of the sport in our state. Many factors play in to this perception. 1. There's only 3 colleges that have college teams (Men's) so the atmosphere that the college game brings is non existent. 2. There's only one "pro" team who only plays for 4 months and in their 10 year existence they finally have a supporters group that makes the games a smidgen better to attend. 3. LSU is the default for a good majority of our youth because it's just how this state is, their club team by the way doesn't even have the best players that attend their school because they say "what's the point?". 4. And no club, minus the three that are participating in the Louisiana Premier League, has any outlets for their players 18+. And no, I don't consider u19 an outlet. So therefor this state uses the high school game as the "mecca" of soccer in Louisiana. It's like our own little pro league that we all get juiced up for. And that's where the problem lies. The level of play is being plateaued. We're using the high school game, not to develop, but to ask players to showcase what they've learned thus far. The argument isn't to see if Vandebilt can win a title against the best teams in the state for bragging rights. The argument is that why isn't Vandebilt competing for a title against the best teams in the state. Why aren't they pushing themselves to be the best? Why should they have to play Ellender twice a year? What's the purpose of that game? So everyone gets a turn to play? Are we using high school soccer as something for kids to just have fun and show off their skill? Or are we using it to develop the player? There will never be any logical explanation said by anyone on why Higgins has to play Jesuit twice a year. NONE, no reason because the only thing gained from the game is Jesuit plays their JV team. That's it! High school sports are used as a player development tool in all other sports. It is seen as the "academy" and highly respected as the vessel that molds our future athletes. But soccer is not. Am I saying our players don't learn things from the high school game? No, the things they learn are not a part of the club scene. But the way that high school soccer is structured does not create an environment for our players to continue to strive to be better. The best youth game I ever witnessed was La Fire 92 boys v. Trinidad & Tobago All-Stars. The level of soccer was far beyond any high school game i've ever seen. There was a total of 50 people there. Rewind to the Jesuit v. St. Paul's finals earlier that year and they had 5,000 strong. The reason for the gap is because it's not soccer that makes the high school game so popular, it's a short term glory chasing moment where you represent a community. Something that this state lacks heavily in our sport. We attach ourselves to high school soccer because there is no LSU, Tulane or ULL to attach to. No culture in the sport beyond the youth level, and even that is only there because of parents supporting their kids. Coach, you'll never change my mind that the LHSAA enrollment way of dividing schools is "the way" because it's high school sports and we have to live with it. The LHSAA can adapt, it can change. Maybe not some promotion relegation way, but for the sake of creating a far more competitive atmosphere there has to be another way.
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Post by usasoccerboy on Mar 3, 2015 13:19:54 GMT -6
If promotion is a bad idea, what you got now is even worse. Vandy wins state Division II and will be demoted to Division III where they will only have one true competitor, St. Louis. No wonder this state can't produce good developed players.
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Post by usasoccerboy on Mar 3, 2015 13:22:39 GMT -6
GET RID OF ALL DIVISIONS or go to a Relgation/Promotion system. I said this 10 years ago in this website and I say it again. Now, with 4 divisions, we will have a weaker state system than when we had 3 divisions just as 3 divisions is weaker than when we had 2. With more divisions, means more weaker games until the end of the playoffs. We need stronger competition to win the championship and if that means St. Pauls must beat Vandy or vice versa in the Round of 16, so be it. Hey, I have an even better idea--how about we only let the top 16 programs statewide play soccer and then shut everybody else down? After all, none of the other teams statewide are any good, so lets just let Vandebilt, St Pauls, Lafayette, Jesuit, Brother Martin, Acadiana, St Louis and a few choice others play and the heck with the rest. I mean, hey, we wouldnt want to water down the competition level by letting the sport grow to other places. Promo/relegation was bad idea 10 years ago and its a bad idea now. Nobody wants that, especially the smaller division big time schools. Dont think so? Well if the Vandys, St Louis', Universities, Northlakes, Ben Franklins etc wanted to play up and felt like they needed to prove they need to be in the top level, nothing is stopping them from doing so. They can ALL choose to play up in soccer only. But they dont--they all stay right where they are..every year, every redistrict/reclassification period. Thats why there is just NO CREDENCE in any idea of promotion/relegation--its not needed as the schools can all make a choice to move to the highest classification. They just dont. The reason they dont is because HS soccer is exactly that-- A HIGH SCHOOL SPORT. It needs to be dealt with and thought about from the HS sport genre first, and soccer second. Club soccer can use whatever methods necessary to entice players to come from anywhere to play for that club, and individual teams can strengthen and weaken. Big clubs can attract coaching and playing resources from anywhere. Too much time is wasted debating the quality and player differences between HS and Club teams, without having a full understanding of the differences in the implemetation and administration of each. The competitiveness of each HS sport is based more primarily on school size, binding attendance zones, geography and the public/parochial debate. That is why its playoff structure and administration MUST be different than that of club soccer. Ask Sean Esker --now the President of both LSA and the LHSSCA--and Chad Vidrine--a VP in both organizations-- if they deal with each entity the same way. The fact that soccer is moving forward and progressing both on the HS and Club level right now is probably best attributed to these two guys understanding the key differencesbetween the two and working towards creating synergy between the two, rather than trying to make them the same thing. Thats why the LHSSCA has been so successful in changing HS soccer for the better--they realize its a HS sport first and soccer second.They certainly arent on here using their time to talk about silly promo plans. Before anybody else comes in here and wastes more time FANTASIZING about an inappropriate promotion/relegation system, I want you to call up the head coaches at each of the schools I listed above and ask them why they dont all petition to move up into DI. Meanwhile, Ill go tell my principal that we cant have soccer anymore because we arent any good. Also, the coaches do not want the promotion/relgation system, or to play with the best teams, because they want to all say they won a state championship. Of course they do not qualify that when they say they won a Division II or 3 and now 4 championship. They just go around proclaiming we are state champions and there will be 4 teams doing that now. Those divisions look pathetic for next year. You can tell the few schools in each who will be vying for a championship. Boring.
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Post by bhsrams on Mar 3, 2015 13:23:00 GMT -6
And the fact that nobody has addressed it is even more fishy What's the fishiness? Maybe someone has already explained..but I'm one of ones that's too lazy to scroll through to find. I've quoted part of my original post at the bottom of this post for easy reference. The main points are: 1) The cut off numbers between the 4 divisions changed from one email to another 2) And I'll just use our school as an example, according to our enrollment numbers and the altered cut off numbers we should have bumped up to DII (not that that's what would be best for our program) but we remained in DIII So either there was a change made to enrollment numbers that was not explained or one of the two emails had incorrect numbers which as far as I've heard, no one has addressed. This could have no impact on anyone, or could alter not just the make-up for the divisions, but the districts as well. I posted something in two different threads and no one on this forum made any comment in the way of a an explanation/answer. "Did anyone else notice the cutoff numbers changed? The email last week said one thing and now the latest email has different numbers. They've changed as follows:
DI was 1346 and now it's 1340 and above DII was 885-1345 and now it's 802-1339 DIII was 401-884 and now it's 449-801 DIV was 400 and below and now it's 448 and below"
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Post by usasoccerboy on Mar 3, 2015 13:23:15 GMT -6
Those cutoff numbers are a bit fishy. And the fact that nobody has addressed it is even more fishy Yes, it is arbitrary.
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Post by usasoccerboy on Mar 3, 2015 13:39:29 GMT -6
Hey, I have an even better idea--how about we only let the top 16 programs statewide play soccer and then shut everybody else down? After all, none of the other teams statewide are any good, so lets just let Vandebilt, St Pauls, Lafayette, Jesuit, Brother Martin, Acadiana, St Louis and a few choice others play and the heck with the rest. I mean, hey, we wouldnt want to water down the competition level by letting the sport grow to other places. Promo/relegation was bad idea 10 years ago and its a bad idea now. Nobody wants that, especially the smaller division big time schools. Dont think so? Well if the Vandys, St Louis', Universities, Northlakes, Ben Franklins etc wanted to play up and felt like they needed to prove they need to be in the top level, nothing is stopping them from doing so. They can ALL choose to play up in soccer only. But they dont--they all stay right where they are..every year, every redistrict/reclassification period. Thats why there is just NO CREDENCE in any idea of promotion/relegation--its not needed as the schools can all make a choice to move to the highest classification. They just dont. The reason they dont is because HS soccer is exactly that-- A HIGH SCHOOL SPORT. It needs to be dealt with and thought about from the HS sport genre first, and soccer second. Club soccer can use whatever methods necessary to entice players to come from anywhere to play for that club, and individual teams can strengthen and weaken. Big clubs can attract coaching and playing resources from anywhere. Too much time is wasted debating the quality and player differences between HS and Club teams, without having a full understanding of the differences in the implemetation and administration of each. The competitiveness of each HS sport is based more primarily on school size, binding attendance zones, geography and the public/parochial debate. That is why its playoff structure and administration MUST be different than that of club soccer. Ask Sean Esker --now the President of both LSA and the LHSSCA--and Chad Vidrine--a VP in both organizations-- if they deal with each entity the same way. The fact that soccer is moving forward and progressing both on the HS and Club level right now is probably best attributed to these two guys understanding the key differencesbetween the two and working towards creating synergy between the two, rather than trying to make them the same thing. Thats why the LHSSCA has been so successful in changing HS soccer for the better--they realize its a HS sport first and soccer second.They certainly arent on here using their time to talk about silly promo plans. Before anybody else comes in here and wastes more time FANTASIZING about an inappropriate promotion/relegation system, I want you to call up the head coaches at each of the schools I listed above and ask them why they dont all petition to move up into DI. Meanwhile, Ill go tell my principal that we cant have soccer anymore because we arent any good. Coach I understand your point. High school sports should be just that, high school sports. And I can see you think anybody looking to find a solution that doesn't see that, it is what it is, is just wasting their time. I get that your some old time ball coach that has been around the game for a while. A lot of people say you've helped the game progress nicely in your region. So I respect your opinion on this matter. With that said, you and I are on two different planets. And here's why. This state glorifies the high school game ten fold. I'm a big supporter of high school because it brings elements in to the picture that the club game does not offer. But the downfall of high school is that it's seen as the pinnacle of the sport in our state. Many factors play in to this perception. 1. There's only 3 colleges that have college teams (Men's) so the atmosphere that the college game brings is non existent. 2. There's only one "pro" team who only plays for 4 months and in their 10 year existence they finally have a supporters group that makes the games a smidgen better to attend. 3. LSU is the default for a good majority of our youth because it's just how this state is, their club team by the way doesn't even have the best players that attend their school because they say "what's the point?". 4. And no club, minus the three that are participating in the Louisiana Premier League, has any outlets for their players 18+. And no, I don't consider u19 an outlet. So therefor this state uses the high school game as the "mecca" of soccer in Louisiana. It's like our own little pro league that we all get juiced up for. And that's where the problem lies. The level of play is being plateaued. We're using the high school game, not to develop, but to ask players to showcase what they've learned thus far. The argument isn't to see if Vandebilt can win a title against the best teams in the state for bragging rights. The argument is that why isn't Vandebilt competing for a title against the best teams in the state. Why aren't they pushing themselves to be the best? Why should they have to play Ellender twice a year? What's the purpose of that game? So everyone gets a turn to play? Are we using high school soccer as something for kids to just have fun and show off their skill? Or are we using it to develop the player? There will never be any logical explanation said by anyone on why Higgins has to play Jesuit twice a year. NONE, no reason because the only thing gained from the game is Jesuit plays their JV team. That's it! High school sports are used as a player development tool in all other sports. It is seen as the "academy" and highly respected as the vessel that molds our future athletes. But soccer is not. Am I saying our players don't learn things from the high school game? No, the things they learn are not a part of the club scene. But the way that high school soccer is structured does not create an environment for our players to continue to strive to be better. The best youth game I ever witnessed was La Fire 92 boys v. Trinidad & Tobago All-Stars. The level of soccer was far beyond any high school game i've ever seen. There was a total of 50 people there. Rewind to the Jesuit v. St. Paul's finals earlier that year and they had 5,000 strong. The reason for the gap is because it's not soccer that makes the high school game so popular, it's a short term glory chasing moment where you represent a community. Something that this state lacks heavily in our sport. We attach ourselves to high school soccer because there is no LSU, Tulane or ULL to attach to. No culture in the sport beyond the youth level, and even that is only there because of parents supporting their kids. Coach, you'll never change my mind that the LHSAA enrollment way of dividing schools is "the way" because it's high school sports and we have to live with it. The LHSAA can adapt, it can change. Maybe not some promotion relegation way, but for the sake of creating a far more competitive atmosphere there has to be another way. So well said. Again, many of the programs that choose to stay in lower divisions do so, because they want to claim they won a championship. St. Paul's in the past dominated Vandy in Division II. St. Paul's said, why stop here. We can win Division I. Vandy on the other hand, said lets win Division II, year after year, along with Ben Franklin or STM and not go into Division I, because Jesuit and St. Paul might prevent us from winning. Now, St. Paul's is the supreme program and Vandy, is welcoming a demotion to Division III next year where the only competition will be St. Louis. EDW will try to give Vandy fits in its own district and it is one of those schools that I see giving a challenge to Vandy and St. Louis, but for the most part, they are inferior to these programs. Meanwhile, Vandy could win Division II schools, but their principal, athletic director, and coaches will take the easy road so they can pat themselves on the back and say they are division champs.
Yes, the best schools should play each other for the top prize when it comes down to it. If that means it is those clubs CoachRay says is the top 16, then so be it. I would prefer a lot more to follow every single game of that final tournament than any thing I see now in any of the lower divisions. I myself, stop caring about HS soccer long ago, because there is nothing worthwhile for the casual fan to watch. But, if you put that tournament Coach Ray proposed would be the end result, I would be ecstatic every year to watch, and would follow every game, instead of just waiting till the final games to check in here and see what is going on and then show no interests other than the final, since that would be the only time a decent game seemed to matter.
What I do notice, is when good schools meet up for a do or die match, the attendance is better than any game against an inferior opponent.
Again, Development should be the main role of LHSAA; otherwise it is not doing it's job. Fostering a good high school experience is a cop out as if developing the game takes a back seat to a namby pamby everyone gets a trophy mentality does the sport or the LHSAA any good. The LHSAA and the NCAA are what is wrong, in my opinion with Louisiana and College soccer. Nothing seen in this thread has changed my mind on that.
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Post by retired_thibodaux_coach on Mar 3, 2015 13:46:40 GMT -6
Hey, I have an even better idea--how about we only let the top 16 programs statewide play soccer and then shut everybody else down? After all, none of the other teams statewide are any good, so lets just let Vandebilt, St Pauls, Lafayette, Jesuit, Brother Martin, Acadiana, St Louis and a few choice others play and the heck with the rest. I mean, hey, we wouldnt want to water down the competition level by letting the sport grow to other places. Promo/relegation was bad idea 10 years ago and its a bad idea now. Nobody wants that, especially the smaller division big time schools. Dont think so? Well if the Vandys, St Louis', Universities, Northlakes, Ben Franklins etc wanted to play up and felt like they needed to prove they need to be in the top level, nothing is stopping them from doing so. They can ALL choose to play up in soccer only. But they dont--they all stay right where they are..every year, every redistrict/reclassification period. Thats why there is just NO CREDENCE in any idea of promotion/relegation--its not needed as the schools can all make a choice to move to the highest classification. They just dont. The reason they dont is because HS soccer is exactly that-- A HIGH SCHOOL SPORT. It needs to be dealt with and thought about from the HS sport genre first, and soccer second. Club soccer can use whatever methods necessary to entice players to come from anywhere to play for that club, and individual teams can strengthen and weaken. Big clubs can attract coaching and playing resources from anywhere. Too much time is wasted debating the quality and player differences between HS and Club teams, without having a full understanding of the differences in the implemetation and administration of each. The competitiveness of each HS sport is based more primarily on school size, binding attendance zones, geography and the public/parochial debate. That is why its playoff structure and administration MUST be different than that of club soccer. Ask Sean Esker --now the President of both LSA and the LHSSCA--and Chad Vidrine--a VP in both organizations-- if they deal with each entity the same way. The fact that soccer is moving forward and progressing both on the HS and Club level right now is probably best attributed to these two guys understanding the key differencesbetween the two and working towards creating synergy between the two, rather than trying to make them the same thing. Thats why the LHSSCA has been so successful in changing HS soccer for the better--they realize its a HS sport first and soccer second.They certainly arent on here using their time to talk about silly promo plans. Before anybody else comes in here and wastes more time FANTASIZING about an inappropriate promotion/relegation system, I want you to call up the head coaches at each of the schools I listed above and ask them why they dont all petition to move up into DI. Meanwhile, Ill go tell my principal that we cant have soccer anymore because we arent any good. Coach I understand your point. High school sports should be just that, high school sports. And I can see you think anybody looking to find a solution that doesn't see that, it is what it is, is just wasting their time. I get that your some old time ball coach that has been around the game for a while. A lot of people say you've helped the game progress nicely in your region. So I respect your opinion on this matter. With that said, you and I are on two different planets. And here's why. This state glorifies the high school game ten fold. I'm a big supporter of high school because it brings elements in to the picture that the club game does not offer. But the downfall of high school is that it's seen as the pinnacle of the sport in our state. Many factors play in to this perception. 1. There's only 3 colleges that have college teams (Men's) so the atmosphere that the college game brings is non existent. 2. There's only one "pro" team who only plays for 4 months and in their 10 year existence they finally have a supporters group that makes the games a smidgen better to attend. 3. LSU is the default for a good majority of our youth because it's just how this state is, their club team by the way doesn't even have the best players that attend their school because they say "what's the point?". 4. And no club, minus the three that are participating in the Louisiana Premier League, has any outlets for their players 18+. And no, I don't consider u19 an outlet. So therefor this state uses the high school game as the "mecca" of soccer in Louisiana. It's like our own little pro league that we all get juiced up for. And that's where the problem lies. The level of play is being plateaued. We're using the high school game, not to develop, but to ask players to showcase what they've learned thus far. The argument isn't to see if Vandebilt can win a title against the best teams in the state for bragging rights. The argument is that why isn't Vandebilt competing for a title against the best teams in the state. Why aren't they pushing themselves to be the best? Why should they have to play Ellender twice a year? What's the purpose of that game? So everyone gets a turn to play? Are we using high school soccer as something for kids to just have fun and show off their skill? Or are we using it to develop the player? There will never be any logical explanation said by anyone on why Higgins has to play Jesuit twice a year. NONE, no reason because the only thing gained from the game is Jesuit plays their JV team. That's it! High school sports are used as a player development tool in all other sports. It is seen as the "academy" and highly respected as the vessel that molds our future athletes. But soccer is not. Am I saying our players don't learn things from the high school game? No, the things they learn are not a part of the club scene. But the way that high school soccer is structured does not create an environment for our players to continue to strive to be better. The best youth game I ever witnessed was La Fire 92 boys v. Trinidad & Tobago All-Stars. The level of soccer was far beyond any high school game i've ever seen. There was a total of 50 people there. Rewind to the Jesuit v. St. Paul's finals earlier that year and they had 5,000 strong. The reason for the gap is because it's not soccer that makes the high school game so popular, it's a short term glory chasing moment where you represent a community. Something that this state lacks heavily in our sport. We attach ourselves to high school soccer because there is no LSU, Tulane or ULL to attach to. No culture in the sport beyond the youth level, and even that is only there because of parents supporting their kids. Coach, you'll never change my mind that the LHSAA enrollment way of dividing schools is "the way" because it's high school sports and we have to live with it. The LHSAA can adapt, it can change. Maybe not some promotion relegation way, but for the sake of creating a far more competitive atmosphere there has to be another way. In my opinion great post, and I agree with most of your post. However I want to talk about you last paragraph about dividing schools based on enrollment. My school has about 1300 students.. We play 5A sports and are in D1 soccer. But just because we have a large student population, doesn't mean we can compete in D1 soccer. We will struggle to make the playoffs in this division. We have only made the playoffs once before when it was 3 divisions. I'm not really one to back away from competition but I am a realist. There is no winning tradition here. Students are not really interested in soccer because of the time of year and because of the lack of wins produced. I maybe had 35 guys tryout for the team. Most students here want to play basketball and if not play then watch (and sometimes I can't blame them because of the weather). I think we should be playing in a lower division. Putting us in a lower division would give us the possibility of making the playoffs every other year which would do wonders for our program. Take a team like Vandebilt (by the way Coach Shenton congrats on being champs) they could play with the best of the best in all divisions. And they have a few others that can as well. Even in an "off" year they could still compete. My point of this little rant, school attendance should not be the deciding factor when dividing teams up. If it's better competition and player/program development that is wanted LHSAA can't base divisions off of school attendance.
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Post by usasoccerboy on Mar 3, 2015 14:07:20 GMT -6
Coach I understand your point. High school sports should be just that, high school sports. And I can see you think anybody looking to find a solution that doesn't see that, it is what it is, is just wasting their time. I get that your some old time ball coach that has been around the game for a while. A lot of people say you've helped the game progress nicely in your region. So I respect your opinion on this matter. With that said, you and I are on two different planets. And here's why. This state glorifies the high school game ten fold. I'm a big supporter of high school because it brings elements in to the picture that the club game does not offer. But the downfall of high school is that it's seen as the pinnacle of the sport in our state. Many factors play in to this perception. 1. There's only 3 colleges that have college teams (Men's) so the atmosphere that the college game brings is non existent. 2. There's only one "pro" team who only plays for 4 months and in their 10 year existence they finally have a supporters group that makes the games a smidgen better to attend. 3. LSU is the default for a good majority of our youth because it's just how this state is, their club team by the way doesn't even have the best players that attend their school because they say "what's the point?". 4. And no club, minus the three that are participating in the Louisiana Premier League, has any outlets for their players 18+. And no, I don't consider u19 an outlet. So therefor this state uses the high school game as the "mecca" of soccer in Louisiana. It's like our own little pro league that we all get juiced up for. And that's where the problem lies. The level of play is being plateaued. We're using the high school game, not to develop, but to ask players to showcase what they've learned thus far. The argument isn't to see if Vandebilt can win a title against the best teams in the state for bragging rights. The argument is that why isn't Vandebilt competing for a title against the best teams in the state. Why aren't they pushing themselves to be the best? Why should they have to play Ellender twice a year? What's the purpose of that game? So everyone gets a turn to play? Are we using high school soccer as something for kids to just have fun and show off their skill? Or are we using it to develop the player? There will never be any logical explanation said by anyone on why Higgins has to play Jesuit twice a year. NONE, no reason because the only thing gained from the game is Jesuit plays their JV team. That's it! High school sports are used as a player development tool in all other sports. It is seen as the "academy" and highly respected as the vessel that molds our future athletes. But soccer is not. Am I saying our players don't learn things from the high school game? No, the things they learn are not a part of the club scene. But the way that high school soccer is structured does not create an environment for our players to continue to strive to be better. The best youth game I ever witnessed was La Fire 92 boys v. Trinidad & Tobago All-Stars. The level of soccer was far beyond any high school game i've ever seen. There was a total of 50 people there. Rewind to the Jesuit v. St. Paul's finals earlier that year and they had 5,000 strong. The reason for the gap is because it's not soccer that makes the high school game so popular, it's a short term glory chasing moment where you represent a community. Something that this state lacks heavily in our sport. We attach ourselves to high school soccer because there is no LSU, Tulane or ULL to attach to. No culture in the sport beyond the youth level, and even that is only there because of parents supporting their kids. Coach, you'll never change my mind that the LHSAA enrollment way of dividing schools is "the way" because it's high school sports and we have to live with it. The LHSAA can adapt, it can change. Maybe not some promotion relegation way, but for the sake of creating a far more competitive atmosphere there has to be another way. In my opinion great post, and I agree with most of your post. However I want to talk about you last paragraph about dividing schools based on enrollment. My school has about 1300 students.. We play 5A sports and are in D1 soccer. But just because we have a large student population, doesn't mean we can compete in D1 soccer. We will struggle to make the playoffs in this division. We have only made the playoffs once before when it was 3 divisions. I'm not really one to back away from competition but I am a realist. There is no winning tradition here. Students are not really interested in soccer because of the time of year and because of the lack of wins produced. I maybe had 35 guys tryout for the team. Most students here want to play basketball and if not play then watch (and sometimes I can't blame them because of the weather). I think we should be playing in a lower division. Putting us in a lower division would give us the possibility of making the playoffs every other year which would do wonders for our program. Take a team like Vandebilt (by the way Coach Shenton congrats on being champs) they could play with the best of the best in all divisions. And they have a few others that can as well. Even in an "off" year they could still compete. My point of this little rant, school attendance should not be the deciding factor when dividing teams up. If it's better competition and player/program development that is wanted LHSAA can't base divisions off of school attendance. Coach, I am familiar with your program. When I was playing High School ball in the mid 80s, we would play the local public schools in what was a rec league at the time of HS soccer. I remember the first days playing Thibodaux and Vandy would put the back ups in where the forwards played goalie. In those first years, we at Vandy were going through our growing pains as well and we had yet to win a district title (during time of no divisions), but we also were so happy that you guys were trying to play the game, so even though we won like 8-0, we didn't care about the score and we were having fun with the Thibodaux players laughing because they were finding it difficult to play this foreign game so we would just give them a slight challenge and let them see if they could possess the ball while we gave them direction of what to do while on the field. I later then followed the progress of schools like yours, South Lafourche, and Morgan City as these were places where soccer had not taken off yet, but they were finally getting into the mix.
The LHSAA had to step in after one year of playing this rec league and prevent this league and eventually, all the public schools in Terrebonne and Lafourche got a LHSAA program. I have seen your team languish from year to year with glimpses of improvement where the team was competitive, but in total, most of the time, you guys had a difficult challenge ahead of you and yes, it did prevent your team from gaining traction and popularity with your student body. Who wants to go and play on a team that loses games by 5 plus goals every game. That is not fun for the players. Yes, Thibodaux is a big school and because of the criteria, you are playing schools that have developed before you even started playing soccer and face a difficult up hill battle.
I believe, schools like yours would benefit from playing in the bottom divisions so that you do not have to play worthless games against those schools with better developed programs. This way, you get some confidence under your belt, learn what it is to win games and what it takes, and then challenge yourselves to move up to the next level. You are not the only school that faces this battle. Again, my feelings here are that we need to develop the entire state of soccer and so those areas that are behind, need to be brought up to the championship level gradually and not just by putting you into the fire with the best. That does nothing to help your program, but in fact, diminishes your ability to get student's interested in the game.
I would like to say, that there are schools that I have seen improvement. I remember when Lake Charles was a new area and now they have good teams from there. Same goes with the northern parts of the state and Alexandria area.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 3, 2015 14:12:43 GMT -6
LHSAA doesn't give a crap about development. And neither does the NCAA.
Sorry, but playing 3, 4 or 6 games in a week isn't good for the player physically, mentally or academically.
I understand that not every (hell, not many apparently)kid wants to have a ball at their feet 24/7 and 365. I have no problem with a kid wanting to play multiple sports. But this brand of football requires more than a 3 or 4 month commitment. You want to play running back in the fall? Sure. But spend a few hours each week working on your touch and play some indoor or pickup.
Can't afford expensive 'club' ball? Go play a mens league or indoor. Spend less time gaming and more time playing the real game. make the investment. Don't let money be an excuse.
Again, the theme is all about winning or having a chance to win. That's the real agenda at work here. And egos of course.
We need to get beyond the delusional dream of fairness and parity and address the real problem.
Not enough kids take soccer very seriously! And that is evident with the product on the field.with a tiny handful of exceptions.
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Post by retired_thibodaux_coach on Mar 3, 2015 14:28:06 GMT -6
LHSAA doesn't give a crap about development. And neither does the NCAA. Sorry, but playing 3, 4 or 6 games in a week isn't good for the player physically, mentally or academically. I understand that not every (hell, not many apparently)kid wants to have a ball at their feet 24/7 and 365. I have no problem with a kid wanting to play multiple sports. But this brand of football requires more than a 3 or 4 month commitment. You want to play running back in the fall? Sure. But spend a few hours each week working on your touch and play some indoor or pickup. Can't afford expensive 'club' ball? Go play a mens league or indoor. Spend less time gaming and more time playing the real game. make the investment. Don't let money be an excuse. Again, the theme is all about winning or having a chance to win. That's the real agenda at work here. And egos of course. We need to get beyond the delusional dream of fairness and parity and address the real problem. Not enough kids take soccer very seriously! And that is evident with the product on the field.with a tiny handful of exceptions. I completely agree! Too many times I have mentioned to my players to go try and play club, or rec, or even pick up.. My players only play in the LHSAA season. It's not enough game play and experience to be able to compete. I know you said you "have no problem" with a player playing multiple sports. And I don't either. Variety is good. Makes for a well rounded adult. But I do believe it hurts them when it comes to soccer as in other sports. Everyone wants to do everything instead of just picking one sport to try and perfect. I did this as well back in the day. It's normal. It just takes away from more playing time and experience. My players do come from cross country and football and then go off to track and baseball come spring. And come summertime, most have jobs and the others have vacations or whatever. They exhaust all their opinions to be able to play some extra soccer. They think they can pick up a soccer ball in November and not have missed a beat since January.. WRONG! It's not easy to become a great soccer player. It takes discipline and lots and lots of hard work and practice and still it is not guaranteed..
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Post by usasoccerboy on Mar 3, 2015 14:34:59 GMT -6
LHSAA doesn't give a crap about development. And neither does the NCAA. Sorry, but playing 3, 4 or 6 games in a week isn't good for the player physically, mentally or academically. I understand that not every (hell, not many apparently)kid wants to have a ball at their feet 24/7 and 365. I have no problem with a kid wanting to play multiple sports. But this brand of football requires more than a 3 or 4 month commitment. You want to play running back in the fall? Sure. But spend a few hours each week working on your touch and play some indoor or pickup. Can't afford expensive 'club' ball? Go play a mens league or indoor. Spend less time gaming and more time playing the real game. make the investment. Don't let money be an excuse. Again, the theme is all about winning or having a chance to win. That's the real agenda at work here. And egos of course. We need to get beyond the delusional dream of fairness and parity and address the real problem. Not enough kids take soccer very seriously! And that is evident with the product on the field.with a tiny handful of exceptions. This is the hard truth and when the USA loses to Belgium in the World Cup round of 16, we ask ourselves, what do we need to do to change losing at the senior level and it all comes back to development of our youth players. If the LHSAA or NCAA does not promote this as a role of their organization, then I say they should not be having anything to do with the sport in the first place as Soccer is not like American sports. It is a global game. Already, I have issues with the LHSAA and NCAA having their own rule book and not following FIFA guidelines. That right there should tell you why we are languishing internationally. Klinsmann and the USSF, instead of attacking MLS, should be setting his sites here at the high school level of those states like Louisiana that are not producing quality athletes. We can produce athletes in Football, Baseball, and Basketball, but when it comes to soccer, we have little to no success. Sure, there are teams that make headway into the ODP or club level and that needs to continue.
One thing I see in American sports, just like the NCAA and its favoritism of Alabama who always get the breaks in college football, there is a oligarchy of authoritarians in local soccer that seek to keep the status quo in favor of their team staying on top. Our interest should be to help the weak as well and make them stronger and competitive so we may grow the game as well. The LHSAA seems only wanting to control the game, not allow it to flourish.
As for your schedule mentioning of playing many games in a week, this usually occurs at the beginning of the year and then resorts to a two game per week schedule and that is when you usually see the better soccer. All I can say, from my limited exposure to watching school soccer, is that to me, a casual fan, the interest is only at the end of the season when the good teams start to play each other in the final rounds of the tournament. My view is to try and extend that somehow. Also, as a casual fan that wants to see development, I would take interest in the lower divisions as I would find it interesting to see what schools could challenge to play up next year.
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Post by retired_thibodaux_coach on Mar 3, 2015 14:46:08 GMT -6
LHSAA doesn't give a crap about development. And neither does the NCAA. Sorry, but playing 3, 4 or 6 games in a week isn't good for the player physically, mentally or academically. I understand that not every (hell, not many apparently)kid wants to have a ball at their feet 24/7 and 365. I have no problem with a kid wanting to play multiple sports. But this brand of football requires more than a 3 or 4 month commitment. You want to play running back in the fall? Sure. But spend a few hours each week working on your touch and play some indoor or pickup. Can't afford expensive 'club' ball? Go play a mens league or indoor. Spend less time gaming and more time playing the real game. make the investment. Don't let money be an excuse. Again, the theme is all about winning or having a chance to win. That's the real agenda at work here. And egos of course. We need to get beyond the delusional dream of fairness and parity and address the real problem. Not enough kids take soccer very seriously! And that is evident with the product on the field.with a tiny handful of exceptions. This is the hard truth and when the USA loses to Belgium in the World Cup round of 16, we ask ourselves, what do we need to do to change losing at the senior level and it all comes back to development of our youth players. If the LHSAA or NCAA does not promote this as a role of their organization, then I say they should not be having anything to do with the sport in the first place as Soccer is not like American sports. It is a global game. Already, I have issues with the LHSAA and NCAA having their own rule book and not following FIFA guidelines. That right there should tell you why we are languishing internationally. Klinsmann and the USSF, instead of attacking MLS, should be setting his sites here at the high school level of those states like Louisiana that are not producing quality athletes. We can produce athletes in Football, Baseball, and Basketball, but when it comes to soccer, we have little to no success. Sure, there are teams that make headway into the ODP or club level and that needs to continue.
One thing I see in American sports, just like the NCAA and its favoritism of Alabama who always get the breaks in college football, there is a oligarchy of authoritarians in local soccer that seek to keep the status quo in favor of their team staying on top. Our interest should be to help the weak as well and make them stronger and competitive so we may grow the game as well. The LHSAA seems only wanting to control the game, not allow it to flourish.
As for your schedule mentioning of playing many games in a week, this usually occurs at the beginning of the year and then resorts to a two game per week schedule and that is when you usually see the better soccer. All I can say, from my limited exposure to watching school soccer, is that to me, a casual fan, the interest is only at the end of the season when the good teams start to play each other in the final rounds of the tournament. My view is to try and extend that somehow. Also, as a casual fan that wants to see development, I would take interest in the lower divisions as I would find it interesting to see what schools could challenge to play up next year.
I almost brought up that USA vs Belgium match but didn't want to open up any healed wounds. Lol
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Post by chelsea007 on Mar 3, 2015 15:25:06 GMT -6
I designed a playoff format that would have
1. allowed for the best to play the best, 2. not punished the "smaller" powerhouses that were being tested through double elimination and relegation to a lower playoff level (after an intitial playoff loss against elite competition), 3. awarded more state titles to the "teams at the top", 4. allowed smaller/weaker programs the opportunity to grow, 5. reduced travel cost for many (most) playoff participants, 6. incresead the number of teams in some sort of post season (allowing for more practices/matches), 7. determined a TRUE "state" champion,
all while NOT increasing the number of total playoff matches for virtually every team in the state (except for 4 schools if I am not mistaken).
It was...too radical. Hmmmmm, everybody is happy. Instead, we heard it would never work or double elimination is not a soccer thing. Instead of thinking out of the box to reach a goal, we go with what football has. People don't like change, especially if it affects their status as the big fish in the small pond. To me though, that mentality is doing our student athletes and our sport a disservice. They deserve better.
FWIW coach, I feel your pain. I see this new playoff format as a program killer for many teams. I believe the move was well intentioned. I guess our programs face issues with unintended consequences. Such is life.
We are where we are. Enjoy. Oh and, thanks for bring up us and Belgium.
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Post by usasoccerboy on Mar 3, 2015 15:46:57 GMT -6
I would like to bring attention to the lesser schools again and commend Thibodaux_coach for bringing up the issue of schools like his having to play in superior level and how it is detrimental to the development of his program. I want to go back and list the thread starting divisional denominations for this year and add to them their final records for this past year. Can we do this? And then, if possible divide them up into 3 or 4 divisions based upon class. St. Paul's would obviously be 1st class and would stay up, but Vandy and Ben Franklin would be promoted to Class 1 as well based on their past history. I would even consider St. Louis being there as well. Then we need to take out those big schools like Thibodaux and place them in a lower class. I am wonder what we would come up with and how different it would look for next years 4 divisional format. Could we devise districts to satisfy the football mentality of LHSAA? Maybe for half the schools, there would be little to no difference. I am getting my final records from www.maxpreps.com/state/soccer-winter/louisiana.htm Let me know if these are inaccurate.
DI 1 Lafayette 2455 - 13 wins, 4 losses, 1 tie - Division I 2 Jesuit 2374 - 20 wins, 5 losses, 4 ties - Division I Runner up - Division I 3 Byrd 2231 - 14 wins, 6 losses, 3 ties - Division I 4 Denham Springs 2218 - 29 wins, 5 losses, 1 tie - Division I 5 Catholic-BR 2198 - 15 wins, 2 losses, 5 ties - Division I 6 West Monroe 2151 - 16 wins, 3 losses, 4 ties, District winner - Division I 7 Dutchtown 2126 - 11 wins, 10 losses, 2 ties - Division I 8 Sulphur 2003 - 11 wins, 7 losses, 3 ties - Division I 9 Barbe 1967 - 4 wins, 11 losses, 1 tie - Borderline 10 Ehret 1963 - 13 wins, 6 losses, 1 tie - Division I 11 Comeaux 1936 - 5 wins, 7 losses - Borderline 12 St Amant 1908 - 14 wins, 7 losses, 3 ties - Division I 13 Airline 1830 - 10 wins, 9 losses - Division I 14 Mandeville 1827 - 20 wins, 4 losses, 3 ties - Division I 15 East Ascension 1825 16 Brother Martin 1812 - 12 wins, 2 losses, 4 ties, Division I 17 New Iberia 1794 18 Acadiana 1787 - 23 wins, 2 losses, 2 ties, = Division I 19 Ponchatoula 1724 - 7 wins, 16 losses, 1 tie, winless in district - Demoted to Division II. 20 Chalmette 1709 - 5 wins, 11 losses, 2 ties = Borderline 21 Fontainebleau 1706 - 10 wins, 8 losses, 1 tie = Division I 22 Zachary 1577 - 13 wins, 7 losses, 1 tie 23 Walker 1568 - 0 wins, 7 losses - Demoted to Division II 24 Slidell 1556 - 8 wins, 6 losses, 2 ties = Borderline 25 Covington 1547 - 10 wins, 7 losses, 1 tie = Division I 26 Northshore 1544 - 10 wins, 5 losses, 5 ties = Division I 27 Hahnville 1530 - 4 wins, 15 losses, 1 tie - Borderline 28 Baton Rouge 1477 - 8 wins, 6 losses, 6 ties - Division I 29 Destrehan 1457 - 15 wins, 7 losses, 3 ties - Division I 30 HL Bourgeois 1441 - 2 wins, 11 losses, 3 ties - Demoted to Division II 31 Bonnabel 1433 32 Pineville 1432 - 10 wins, 17 losses, 3 ties. Borderline. 33 Natchitoches Central 1422 - 1 win; 12 losses, 2 ties = Demotion to Division II 34 St Pauls 1420 30 wins, 0 losses, 3 ties - Won Div I title = Division I 35 Hammond 1418 - 12 wins, 7 losses, 2 ties = Division I 36 Higgins 1400 - 3 wins, 13 losses, winless in district - Demoted to Division II 37 Southwood 1398 - 1 win, 12 losses last place district = Demoted to Division II 38 McKinley 1374 39 Grace King 1359 40 Thibodaux 1354 - 6 wins, 19 losses, 3 ties = Borderline 41 West Jefferson 1345 42 East St John 1340 - 7 wins, 9 losses, 4 ties - Division I 43 Central Lafourche 1337 - 15 wins, 3 losses, 3 ties - Division I 44 Captain Shreve 1324 45 Landry Walker 1316 46 Alexandria 1314 - 4 wins, 11 losses, 4 ties - Borderline 47 Central-BR 1311 - 1 win, 5 losses - Demoted to Division 48 Live Oak 1283 - 12 wins, 7 losses, 3 ties - Division I 49 Parkway 1282 - 9 wins, 9 losses, 1 tie - Division I 50 Ouachita Parish 1280 - 14 wins, 6 losses, 6 ties. Division I. 51 Terrebonne 1257 - 11 wins, 8 losses, 2 ties - Division I 52 Ruston 1251 - 20 wins, 4 losses, 5 ties - Division I. 53 Broadmoor 1250 - 0 wins, 15 losses - Demoted to Division II. 54 Archbishop Rummel 1238 - 7 wins, 10 losses 55 Haughton 1228 - 2 wins, 12 losses - Demoted to Division II. 56 Holy Cross 1222 - 3 wins, 9 losses, 3 ties - Borderline 57 East Jefferson 1159
DII 58 Woodlawn-BR 1156 59 South Lafourche 1146 - 2 wins, 11 losses, 1 tie in Division I - Demotion to Div. II 60 West Ouachita 1138 61 Caddo Magnet 1122 - 12 wins, 6 losses, 2 ties in Division I. Stays in Division I. 62 Carencro 1090 63 Westgate 1086 64 St Thomas More 1076 65 Tara 1065 66 Lakeshore 1052 67 Belaire 1048 - 3 wins, 7 losses, 3 ties - Borderline 68 South Terrebonne 1016 69 Salmen 978 70 Neville 973 71 Tioga 972 72 Ellender 969 73 Helen Cox 962 74 Northwood 955 75 Riverdale 945 76 Ben Franklin 897 - 19 wins, 5 losses, 3 ties - Division II Runner Up - Promoted to Division I 77 Beau Chene 896 - 27 wins, 1 loss, 5 ties - Promoted to Division I. 78 Benton 887 79 Belle Chasse 884 80 Bastrop 857 - 1 win, 15 losses, 2 ties - Demoted to Division III 81 Minden 846 82 Franklinton 829 83 Opelousas 813 84 Deridder 805 85 Plaquemine 801 86 Morgan City 800 - 12 wins, 7 losses, 1 tie 87 Archbishop Shaw 787 - 1 win, 16 losses in Div. I, so demoted to Div. II. 88 Leesville 782 89 Grant 747 90 Teurlings 735 91 St Michaels 726 92 Pearl River 707 93 Vandebilt 696 - 18 wins, 7 losses, 7 ties - won Division II title = Promoted to Division I 94 Abbeville 672 95 Bossier 661 96 North Desoto 653
DIII 97 Lutcher 628 98 ED White 622 99 West Feliciana 601 100 North Vermillion 591 101 Buckeye 591 102 Peabody 575 103 St Louis 570 - 16 wins, 3 losses, 3 ties - won Division III - Promoted to Division II 104 Bolton 561 105 Erath 555 106 NO Military and Maritime 539 107 International HS of NO 536 108 Kaplan 531 109 Lusher Charter 505 110 Parkview Baptist 493 111 University 448 112 Independence 441 113 De le Salle 440 114 JS Clark 432 115 Loyola 432 116 Notre Dame 424 117 Episcopal 406 118 Thomas Jefferson 400 119 Archbishop Hannan 398 120 St Charles 391 - 5 wins, 2 losses - Div. III Runner up - Promoted to Div. II 121 Catholic -NI 390 122 Haynes Academy 379 123 Evangel Christian 366 124 Pine 364 125 Menard 351 126 Lee Magnet 350 127 St Thomas Aquinas 343 128 North Caddo 341 129 Red River 335 130 Isadore Newman 332 - 14 wins, 1 loss, 4 ties - Promoted to Division II 131 David Thibodaux 314 132 Pope John Paul II 293 133 Riverside Academy 292 134 Northlake Christian 279 135 Dunham 277 136 Ouachita Christian 268 137 Rapides 268 138 Opelousas Catholic 262 139 Metairie Park Country Day 241 140 Calvary Baptist 241 141 Christian Life 239 142 Runnels 235 143 Westminster Christian 228 144 Lafayette Christian 210 145 Catholic PC 202 146 Ascension Episcopal 201 147 St Frederick 194 148 St Martins 181 149 Patrick Taylor 180 150 Episcopal of Acadiana 176 151 Glenmora 169 152 Houma Christian 167 153 Grace Christian 144 154 Covenant Christian 139 155 Ascension Christian 132 156 Lutheran 103
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Post by chelsea007 on Mar 3, 2015 17:32:15 GMT -6
Why demote them? What if they were junior laden and are great the next season or are senior laden and fall off the next season? This is a logical argument against promotion and relegation in high school. Instead, use the power rating at the end of the season to seed teams regardless of division. The logical argument against that is that a smaller school like St. Louis cant compete against the St. Paul's of the world. That is where I envisioned the top 32 belong in a premiere" division where the losers from that group are allowed to be relegated to a lower division if they lose. In a sense, they are rewarded for being in that top 32 by being allowed to go through double elimination. As for the rest, seeds 33-whatever, will make the postseason in lower divisions. In this manner, you will be competing for titles against teams of similar ability. Weaker teams can use the act of just making the post season as an incentive for the school to continue to support the program. Once you get to a certain point further down in the power ratings, the post season can become a "regional tournament title" as opposed to a state title. In this manner, the concept of a state title isn't diminished, travel costs go down, and programs get to grow. The teams at the top are challenged, the other teams have a chance to grow, and player development occurs at EVERY level imo. Oh, one more thing... a TRUE state champion is crowned. Then again, the above isn't a football design so - no chance.
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Post by usasoccerboy on Mar 3, 2015 18:07:17 GMT -6
Why demote them? What if they were junior laden and are great the next season or are senior laden and fall off the next season? This is a logical argument against promotion and relegation in high school. Instead, use the power rating at the end of the season to seed teams regardless of division. The logical argument against that is that a smaller school like St. Louis cant compete against the St. Paul's of the world. That is where I envisioned the top 32 belong in a premiere" division where the losers from that group are allowed to be relegated to a lower division if they lose. In a sense, they are rewarded for being in that top 32 by being allowed to go through double elimination. As for the rest, seeds 33-whatever, will make the postseason in lower divisions. In this manner, you will be competing for titles against teams of similar ability. Weaker teams can use the act of just making the post season as an incentive for the school to continue to support the program. Once you get to a certain point further down in the power ratings, the post season can become a "regional tournament title" as opposed to a state title. In this manner, the concept of a state title isn't diminished, travel costs go down, and programs get to grow. The teams at the top are challenged, the other teams have a chance to grow, and player development occurs at EVERY level imo. Oh, one more thing. a TRUE state champion is crowned. Then again, the above isn't a football design so - no chance. I would demote them because they barely win many games as it stands now. From going through these records, I am seeing that a lot of the concerns can easily be solved. I notice that the teams mostly being demoted are the bottom teams of the district and that they would play in the same regions district in the lower divisions and vice versa. So, Vandy being promoted would play in Terrebonne's district; whereas HLB being demoted would play with EDW and other local teams already in the Div. II district, like say Morgan City. This eliminates a lot of the fears of being assigned to a district that makes a team travel far distances. Also, there are clubs that play only a handful of games. For instance, St. Charles Catholic were Div. III runners up, but only played 7 games all year long. I assume this is due to financial reasons. For these clubs, I think that if they can't field a team that plays a minimum number of games, that they automatically be put in the lower divisions, regardless of school enrollment. Looking at the records, attendance is a variable that accounts for little variance as to being a successful program.
Another thing that I could see, is going to a regional table format, where every team plays a home and away like they do in the EPL and no divisional status exist. Then the limited playoff format pits different regions against each other to get one true state champion.
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Post by retired_thibodaux_coach on Mar 3, 2015 19:33:16 GMT -6
I would like to bring attention to the lesser schools again and commend Thibodaux_coach for bringing up the issue of schools like his having to play in superior level and how it is detrimental to the development of his program. I want to go back and list the thread starting divisional denominations for this year and add to them their final records for this past year. Can we do this? And then, if possible divide them up into 3 or 4 divisions based upon class. St. Paul's would obviously be 1st class and would stay up, but Vandy and Ben Franklin would be promoted to Class 1 as well based on their past history. I would even consider St. Louis being there as well. Then we need to take out those big schools like Thibodaux and place them in a lower class. I am wonder what we would come up with and how different it would look for next years 4 divisional format. Could we devise districts to satisfy the football mentality of LHSAA? Maybe for half the schools, there would be little to no difference. I am getting my final records from www.maxpreps.com/state/soccer-winter/louisiana.htm Let me know if these are inaccurate.
DI 1 Lafayette 2455 - 13 wins, 4 losses, 1 tie - Division I 2 Jesuit 2374 - 20 wins, 5 losses, 4 ties - Division I Runner up - Division I 3 Byrd 2231 - 14 wins, 6 losses, 3 ties - Division I 4 Denham Springs 2218 - 29 wins, 5 losses, 1 tie - Division I 5 Catholic-BR 2198 - 15 wins, 2 losses, 5 ties - Division I 6 West Monroe 2151 - 16 wins, 3 losses, 4 ties, District winner - Division I 7 Dutchtown 2126 - 11 wins, 10 losses, 2 ties - Division I 8 Sulphur 2003 - 11 wins, 7 losses, 3 ties - Division I 9 Barbe 1967 - 4 wins, 11 losses, 1 tie - Borderline 10 Ehret 1963 - 13 wins, 6 losses, 1 tie - Division I 11 Comeaux 1936 - 5 wins, 7 losses - Borderline 12 St Amant 1908 - 14 wins, 7 losses, 3 ties - Division I 13 Airline 1830 - 10 wins, 9 losses - Division I 14 Mandeville 1827 - 20 wins, 4 losses, 3 ties - Division I 15 East Ascension 1825 16 Brother Martin 1812 - 12 wins, 2 losses, 4 ties, Division I 17 New Iberia 1794 18 Acadiana 1787 - 23 wins, 2 losses, 2 ties, = Division I 19 Ponchatoula 1724 - 7 wins, 16 losses, 1 tie, winless in district - Demoted to Division II. 20 Chalmette 1709 - 5 wins, 11 losses, 2 ties = Borderline 21 Fontainebleau 1706 - 10 wins, 8 losses, 1 tie = Division I 22 Zachary 1577 - 13 wins, 7 losses, 1 tie 23 Walker 1568 - 0 wins, 7 losses - Demoted to Division II 24 Slidell 1556 - 8 wins, 6 losses, 2 ties = Borderline 25 Covington 1547 - 10 wins, 7 losses, 1 tie = Division I 26 Northshore 1544 - 10 wins, 5 losses, 5 ties = Division I 27 Hahnville 1530 - 4 wins, 15 losses, 1 tie - Borderline 28 Baton Rouge 1477 - 8 wins, 6 losses, 6 ties - Division I 29 Destrehan 1457 - 15 wins, 7 losses, 3 ties - Division I 30 HL Bourgeois 1441 - 2 wins, 11 losses, 3 ties - Demoted to Division II 31 Bonnabel 1433 32 Pineville 1432 - 10 wins, 17 losses, 3 ties. Borderline. 33 Natchitoches Central 1422 - 1 win; 12 losses, 2 ties = Demotion to Division II 34 St Pauls 1420 30 wins, 0 losses, 3 ties - Won Div I title = Division I 35 Hammond 1418 - 12 wins, 7 losses, 2 ties = Division I 36 Higgins 1400 - 3 wins, 13 losses, winless in district - Demoted to Division II 37 Southwood 1398 - 1 win, 12 losses last place district = Demoted to Division II 38 McKinley 1374 39 Grace King 1359 40 Thibodaux 1354 - 6 wins, 19 losses, 3 ties = Borderline 41 West Jefferson 1345 42 East St John 1340 - 7 wins, 9 losses, 4 ties - Division I 43 Central Lafourche 1337 - 15 wins, 3 losses, 3 ties - Division I 44 Captain Shreve 1324 45 Landry Walker 1316 46 Alexandria 1314 - 4 wins, 11 losses, 4 ties - Borderline 47 Central-BR 1311 - 1 win, 5 losses - Demoted to Division 48 Live Oak 1283 - 12 wins, 7 losses, 3 ties - Division I 49 Parkway 1282 - 9 wins, 9 losses, 1 tie - Division I 50 Ouachita Parish 1280 - 14 wins, 6 losses, 6 ties. Division I. 51 Terrebonne 1257 - 11 wins, 8 losses, 2 ties - Division I 52 Ruston 1251 - 20 wins, 4 losses, 5 ties - Division I. 53 Broadmoor 1250 - 0 wins, 15 losses - Demoted to Division II. 54 Archbishop Rummel 1238 - 7 wins, 10 losses 55 Haughton 1228 - 2 wins, 12 losses - Demoted to Division II. 56 Holy Cross 1222 - 3 wins, 9 losses, 3 ties - Borderline 57 East Jefferson 1159
DII 58 Woodlawn-BR 1156 59 South Lafourche 1146 - 2 wins, 11 losses, 1 tie in Division I - Demotion to Div. II 60 West Ouachita 1138 61 Caddo Magnet 1122 - 12 wins, 6 losses, 2 ties in Division I. Stays in Division I. 62 Carencro 1090 63 Westgate 1086 64 St Thomas More 1076 65 Tara 1065 66 Lakeshore 1052 67 Belaire 1048 - 3 wins, 7 losses, 3 ties - Borderline 68 South Terrebonne 1016 69 Salmen 978 70 Neville 973 71 Tioga 972 72 Ellender 969 73 Helen Cox 962 74 Northwood 955 75 Riverdale 945 76 Ben Franklin 897 - 19 wins, 5 losses, 3 ties - Division II Runner Up - Promoted to Division I 77 Beau Chene 896 - 27 wins, 1 loss, 5 ties - Promoted to Division I. 78 Benton 887 79 Belle Chasse 884 80 Bastrop 857 - 1 win, 15 losses, 2 ties - Demoted to Division III 81 Minden 846 82 Franklinton 829 83 Opelousas 813 84 Deridder 805 85 Plaquemine 801 86 Morgan City 800 - 12 wins, 7 losses, 1 tie 87 Archbishop Shaw 787 - 1 win, 16 losses in Div. I, so demoted to Div. II. 88 Leesville 782 89 Grant 747 90 Teurlings 735 91 St Michaels 726 92 Pearl River 707 93 Vandebilt 696 - 18 wins, 7 losses, 7 ties - won Division II title = Promoted to Division I 94 Abbeville 672 95 Bossier 661 96 North Desoto 653
DIII 97 Lutcher 628 98 ED White 622 99 West Feliciana 601 100 North Vermillion 591 101 Buckeye 591 102 Peabody 575 103 St Louis 570 - 16 wins, 3 losses, 3 ties - won Division III - Promoted to Division II 104 Bolton 561 105 Erath 555 106 NO Military and Maritime 539 107 International HS of NO 536 108 Kaplan 531 109 Lusher Charter 505 110 Parkview Baptist 493 111 University 448 112 Independence 441 113 De le Salle 440 114 JS Clark 432 115 Loyola 432 116 Notre Dame 424 117 Episcopal 406 118 Thomas Jefferson 400 119 Archbishop Hannan 398 120 St Charles 391 - 5 wins, 2 losses - Div. III Runner up - Promoted to Div. II 121 Catholic -NI 390 122 Haynes Academy 379 123 Evangel Christian 366 124 Pine 364 125 Menard 351 126 Lee Magnet 350 127 St Thomas Aquinas 343 128 North Caddo 341 129 Red River 335 130 Isadore Newman 332 - 14 wins, 1 loss, 4 ties - Promoted to Division II 131 David Thibodaux 314 132 Pope John Paul II 293 133 Riverside Academy 292 134 Northlake Christian 279 135 Dunham 277 136 Ouachita Christian 268 137 Rapides 268 138 Opelousas Catholic 262 139 Metairie Park Country Day 241 140 Calvary Baptist 241 141 Christian Life 239 142 Runnels 235 143 Westminster Christian 228 144 Lafayette Christian 210 145 Catholic PC 202 146 Ascension Episcopal 201 147 St Frederick 194 148 St Martins 181 149 Patrick Taylor 180 150 Episcopal of Acadiana 176 151 Glenmora 169 152 Houma Christian 167 153 Grace Christian 144 154 Covenant Christian 139 155 Ascension Christian 132 156 Lutheran 103
Is this from 14-15? Thib went 5-11-3 in 14-15 LHSAA has the schools records and results.
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Post by methuselah on Mar 3, 2015 19:38:27 GMT -6
For instance, St. Charles Catholic were Div. III runners up, but only played 7 games all year long. I assume this is due to financial reasons. Wait. What?
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Post by retired_thibodaux_coach on Mar 3, 2015 19:41:23 GMT -6
Why demote them? What if they were junior laden and are great the next season or are senior laden and fall off the next season? This is a logical argument against promotion and relegation in high school. Instead, use the power rating at the end of the season to seed teams regardless of division. The logical argument against that is that a smaller school like St. Louis cant compete against the St. Paul's of the world. That is where I envisioned the top 32 belong in a premiere" division where the losers from that group are allowed to be relegated to a lower division if they lose. In a sense, they are rewarded for being in that top 32 by being allowed to go through double elimination. As for the rest, seeds 33-whatever, will make the postseason in lower divisions. In this manner, you will be competing for titles against teams of similar ability. Weaker teams can use the act of just making the post season as an incentive for the school to continue to support the program. Once you get to a certain point further down in the power ratings, the post season can become a "regional tournament title" as opposed to a state title. In this manner, the concept of a state title isn't diminished, travel costs go down, and programs get to grow. The teams at the top are challenged, the other teams have a chance to grow, and player development occurs at EVERY level imo. Oh, one more thing. a TRUE state champion is crowned. Then again, the above isn't a football design so - no chance. it is a shame that it is all about football and what football wants, but it is what brings in the money. and it is the country we live in. I do like your playoff format. If people would be more open minded and if the people who know nothing about soccer would stay out, I believe your playoff would work and teams would eventually like it for what it is. Isn't the saying "if you want to be the best you got to beat the best?" My program is no where near being able to compete in your top 32 bracket but as a coach and a fan of the sport, I would love to see St. Paul's play Vandebilt in a quarter final or even final. The best of the best playing to be one true champion.
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