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Post by swlasoccerfan on Jan 8, 2007 9:33:54 GMT -6
I also have experienced the game from all three positions (player, coach, and ref) and I also umpire highschool baseball. In baseball there calls that are considered "judgement calls" which are non-challengable (ball / strike / safe / out) I know you can question a safe / out but under certain circumstances so don't get techinal on me. Soccer is a game made mostly of judgement calls and I am one of the last persons to seriously yell at a ref for missing a call, but getting a RULE / LAW of the game that is a black or white, right or wrong thing incorrect just makes me furious. Knowing the rules of the game is as simple as reading a book, and not knowing them is a sign of laziness to me. If a ref doesn't know the rules they shouldn't be out there pretending that they do because when something like this goes awry the game is then going to get out of the referee's control. Once again I have no problem with a judgement call against my team, it getting the rules of the game wrong.
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Post by sockrdad on Jan 8, 2007 11:17:47 GMT -6
I officiate in 3 different high school sports. Yes, soccer is one of them.
I will agree that there is a shortage of officials in each sport that I officiate.
I will agree that there are, for lack of better wording, good and bad officials. Maybe some are just better than others. Officiating is the only job where people expect you to correct 100% in your first game and improve on that each following game.
I am sure other officials have recieved the following same comments : "You are one of the best refs around." Next week at same field, "You are one of the worst refs I have ever seen." The best comments is, "I would not do that job for a million bucks."
Why is it that we have a shortage of officials? Many good people do not wish to take the abuse that is given to officials. People scream at us telling us we aren't calling the game right, call us names as we leave the field, curse at us during the game. We get hollered at for giving advantage. We get hollered at for not giving advantage. Who wants a job like that?
I do. My goal is to call the game so that each team plays by the rules. Not only do I get to officiate I get the best "seat" in the house. I am there in the middle of the play watching as the attacking team passes the ball from one side of the field to the other and then crosses back and over the defenders as the wing slips in from the backside and nails a goal or a great defender reacts quickly enough to stop the charge. From the center of the field you can see all these plays developing. Yes, you can watch the game while officiating.
Yes, there are better refs than me and probably those that I am better, but we are out there giving your children a chance to play. I don't know of any sporting event that does not have someone officating. We take time away from our families, sometimes miss our own children's game because there are not enough people to fill the need. I am sure most enjoy what they do and try to call a good game. So, every once in a while try telling the ref thanks for coming out to the game.
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Post by Bish on Jan 8, 2007 11:41:43 GMT -6
I don't know of any sporting event that does not have someone officating. I'll give you 3: Bowling Dock Soccer Solitaire
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Post by barbedad20 on Jan 8, 2007 11:45:22 GMT -6
Good point sokerdad(never thought I'd say that!!). I make it a point at every Barbe home game to go and shake hands with the refs before the game is played and thank them for coming out. Sometimes after the game I don't agree with the calls but I still find a way to thank the crew for doing their job. I yell, scream, and pull what little hair I have left out during the game but we must all realize that the crew works hard to do the best job they possibly can. I also realize that if these guys were not doing the job they do, our kids would not have the opportunity to do the one thing they love to do: play soccer. And if that is not enough, I also realize that if these guys did not do the job they do it would be left up to some ya hoo like me to call a game and I can promise you this.......No one in Lake Charles wants to see that!
Bottom line is thank the guys and ladies who officiate your game or sign up in August with your local ref assigner and train to be a ref and for little money you can be questioned, yell out, cursed, etc....... Who wouldn't want that job???
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Post by sockrdad on Jan 8, 2007 11:57:49 GMT -6
I don't know of any sporting event that does not have someone officating. I'll give you 3: Bowling Dock Soccer Solitaire Bowling is the only one of the three that is an actual sport. Yes, there is an official for bowling. It is called the electronic foul line. It beeps when you cross it.
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Post by Bish on Jan 8, 2007 12:07:20 GMT -6
An eletronic foul line is not an official. It doesn't make a decision, it only reacts when a person steps on it.
I guess you would also assume that the buzzers at the end of basketball and hockey games are also officials?
P.S. Dock soccer is more of a sport than soccer itself.
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Post by socrrulz02 on Jan 8, 2007 14:57:09 GMT -6
"At any given time, there are only about 10 players around the ball. That's where the call needs to be made."
So referee's shouldn't concern themselves with anything that happens away from the ball? And if something does happen the shouldn't call it because the call "needs to be made" by the ball?
"When it comes to offsides... thats the easiest call to make (as long as you understand the rules as an official)."
Just a little problem with your theory from above, if all three refs are continuously watching the ball and that area of the field how would you propose that they make the offside decision? The AR would be watching the ball being sent instead of where the attacker was when the ball was sent. I know this is one of the most common reasons why we as fans and coaches yell at the referee about offside decisions because we aren't looking at the line until after the ball is played.
btw...it's offside, not offsides...
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Post by brhsoccer14 on Jan 8, 2007 15:01:19 GMT -6
This post is a reply to rbsoccerinsouth's post from the game scores thread. Since I dont wish to continue to upset the admins, I decided to resume it in this thread. "Sorry Baton Rouge boy, I can't agree with anything you have said. You are obviously a ref that has yet to experience alot of things." You did get one thing right, I am a referee, but I do think I have experienced a lot more than you think. Im not one of the regular referees that only do local rec/premier/high school games. "Many more parents than you think know the game. No, I haven't had just one bad experience with officials (I've been playing and coaching the game probably longer than you have been alive). Yes, officials are performing to the best of their abilities but that does not constitute them for being assigned to actually be the one to make the calls for a varsity match." Most parents know a basic understanding of the game and that is the limit. They know the basic offside rule, but not the fun, detailed parts, they know nothing about "hand balls", they know what cards are, but not when they should be used and why they are used, and every once in a while, you'll find a parent that knows a bit more about the game than the typical parent. Believe me, when I am the Junior AR (the line near the parents), I hear so many things that make me want to turn around and tell them they have no idea. Of course, being the professional I am, I have only done that once or twice. "There is no referree shortage here... there's just an overload of games." Wow... Please re-read that and then tell me that's not what you meant to say. No referee shortage, but an overload of games.... So what you are saying is that there is not enough refs to cover all of the games. Hmm, sounds like a shortage to me.
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mfg17
Bench Warmer
Posts: 34
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Post by mfg17 on Jan 8, 2007 15:50:27 GMT -6
I have refereed for about five years now and wish to offer the following:
1. I started referreeing during my daughter's last year in high school when I realized that after she graduated I wouldn't be actively involved with soccer anymore. I also felt like I could afford to give my time to a sport that both I and my daughter enjoyed and still enjoy today.
2. Most referees don't do the job for the money - most are working dads like myself who take off work so the kids have a referee for that 3:30 pm game that high schools like to schedule. Granted some refs are high school or college kids who can make a few extra spending dollars for the weekend by doing games but most refs are older, wroking stiffs.
3. Do I still make mistakes? Yes, but I try to eliminate those mistakes by constantly learning more about the rules and their application to the actual game. I do that by asking my fellow refs at the half and after a game if there is anything I missed or anything I can do to improve my game. I also buy instructional materials (books and tapes) from USSF and FIFA to continue learning. Also our local referee association has trainig seminars for both beginners and for older referees at each of our monthly meetings. Just because you get an initial certification as a ref is no reason to stop learning.
4. Parents are the reason I will eventually stop officiating games. I was once one of them so I know of what I speak. I used to constantly fume over calls or non calls that I just knew were fouls or offside or the wrong team being awarded a throw-in. While taking the referee certification course, I realized what I didn't know about the game and an ignoramus I must have been and . Now, as a referee, I tend to ignore the parents but every once in awhile they get under your skin with their lack of knowledge or their being able to correctly call an offside while sitting at the center line and the suppossed offside is closer to the 18. Like brhasoccer14, I have wanted to respond to the parents but have always refrained from doing so. Even now when I am just a spectator at a game and parents know I am a referee, they will invariably turn to me when a "controversial" call is made and ask if it was correct. My answer is always the same - the ref or the AR is a lot closer to the play than we as spectators are, so give them the benefit of seeing more of the play that you and making the correct call based on what they saw.
I could go on with other points but if I had one request it would be that those parents who can afford to make the committment become a certified ref. If you know of any high school soccer player who wants to stay involved in the game after graduation, ask them to become a ref. There is still a shortage of refs in the New Orleans area.
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Post by gatorsoccer4 on Jan 8, 2007 19:27:54 GMT -6
yes alot of ref are current high school students i know because we have 4 certified refs on our team and even though what we may think is right i always tend to side with the ref because he really does have the better angle to see the play where as the player can not because he is involved in a current action
and as for the calling of offside it is not the easiest call to make it is actually quite difficult what i was taught when i took the ref course that u watch the second to last defender and wait to hear the sound of the ball being kicked and if the attacker is behind the defender when u hear the thud of the contact yes he is offsides but often refs (i included) tend to get caught up watching the game because we do love this game and that is why we do it for the most part
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dogabone
Bench Warmer
"Give a dog a bone"
Posts: 34
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Post by dogabone on Jan 8, 2007 20:08:25 GMT -6
Officiating is the only job where people expect you to correct 100% in your first game and improve on that each following game. Pretty good comments, but this one line above is a little too much "bleeding heart" for me. Let's not go overboard.
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dogabone
Bench Warmer
"Give a dog a bone"
Posts: 34
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Post by dogabone on Jan 8, 2007 20:18:03 GMT -6
3. Do I still make mistakes? Yes, but I try to eliminate those mistakes by constantly learning more about the rules and their application to the actual game. I do that by asking my fellow refs at the half and after a game if there is anything I missed or anything I can do to improve my game. I also buy instructional materials (books and tapes) from USSF and FIFA to continue learning. Also our local referee association has trainig seminars for both beginners and for older referees at each of our monthly meetings. Just because you get an initial certification as a ref is no reason to stop learning. Now this guy deserves respect. All his points are very valid, and his honesty is there as well. Well said mfg17
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Post by tbone5471 on Jan 9, 2007 8:54:14 GMT -6
i have a question after reading all of the comments on this thread.......if a parent (OR ALL PARENTS)sit(s) quietly and does not question any of these calls, don't most of the refs leave the game thinking they did a great job?? i am trying very hard not to say anything any more. however, it got the best of me last friday night. (probably the worst call i have seen in four years) i yelled at them while they were on the field but DID NOT say anything to them afterward.
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Post by PutMeInCoach2 on Jan 9, 2007 9:30:00 GMT -6
i have a question after reading all of the comments on this thread.......if a parent (OR ALL PARENTS)sit(s) quietly and does not question any of these calls, don't most of the refs leave the game thinking they did a great job?? i am trying very hard not to say anything any more. however, it got the best of me last friday night. (probably the worst call i have seen in four years) i yelled at them while they were on the field but DID NOT say anything to them afterward. There is a difference between yelling the whole game at calls u obviously cant see. I have had people yell form the other side the field when they were at one corner, and the ball being the opposite corner of the field. Claiming the ball wasnt a throw in for the team givin, when both referees were on top the play. That is what frustrates officials.
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Post by cajunref on Jan 9, 2007 10:44:48 GMT -6
I've been an official for 17 years and it has been the most rewarding part of my life. I have the opportunity to be part of so many young lives and I hope I've influenced a few. I have young adults come to me and remind me of "that game" they'll never forget...good or bad. We all have to face reality in the referee world that it's a job like any other job. Some are better at it than others and some put more heart into their work than others. In Baton Rouge, we are always striving for a better pool of referees and have Continuing Education once a month. It's like any other organization that's "volunteer", the ones attending the meetings are NOT the ones needing the training. We have web sites and daily e-mails updating refs on referee training. I still play and will cringe at some of the calls (or no calls) made in my geriatric game that is so slow my 10 year old niece could keep up with play. If a referee has been reported for poor perforance numerous times, that ref will be moved to the bottom of the ref list. With the shortage of refs (YES THERE IS A SHORTAGE, I'm an assignor as well) not everyone will get the top level crews. The better games will get the better crews. Is this fair? Some say yes, some say no but it's fact. There will always be the unruly fans and the ignorant parents. There will be that game we wish we could take back and do over. Good refs will use all the adversity he/she faces to become a better referee. We return not because we have "thick skin" but because we love the game. I don't post often, so thanks for letting me share.
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Post by JustSomeRecPlayer8 on Jan 9, 2007 13:48:10 GMT -6
An eletronic foul line is not an official. It doesn't make a decision, it only reacts when a person steps on it. I guess you would also assume that the buzzers at the end of basketball and hockey games are also officials? P.S. Dock soccer is more of a sport than soccer itself. So its like beach volleyball and regular volleyball.
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Post by soccerjunqie on Jan 9, 2007 16:25:41 GMT -6
I have a problem. I am a refaholic. I have been looking for RA (Referee's Anyomous) meetings in my area but I can't find one. As a coach and a parent, I have been thrown out of games by some of the finest referees in the sport. That never bothers me b/c usually I deserved what I got. I do find that the consistancy of calling by a ref is much more acceptable, even if wrong, than inconsistent calling, even if right. If hand checking is not permitted by one team, it should not be permitted for the other, etc. Having watched almost 15 years of soccer, you begin to know the refs and the way they call games. Some have thick skin and others don't. Some like rough play, some don't. I do not think there is a cure for refaholics. Once you are a refaholic you are one for life. Just when I think that I am in remission, I relapse. There are some rules to follow though. Sit by yourself to avoid being stirred up by other refaholics (most teams have one or two); Never curse and most importantly, let it go once the game is over. On the upside, being a refaholic does not prevent you from driving home unless of course you crossed the line and you are in the back seat of a police unit.
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Post by snowbird on Jan 9, 2007 22:53:03 GMT -6
I just can't resist asking this and it may be a topic for another thread but...Have you or any other parent you know been taken from a game in the back of a police unit? I have the sick feeling the Laffy vs Jesuit game is about to be brought up....haha. Has anyone EVER seen a parent so out of control they were arrested at the field and forced to take "the walk of shame" to the police car?.....this should be good. Post the stories!
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Post by cardsinhand on Jan 9, 2007 23:20:20 GMT -6
Never seen it happen, but there is a Judge in Lafayette that yells some rough things at the refs. I bet if I went into his court room and yelled the same thing about him, I'd be arrested! Is that fair?? Is that hypocritical of him?? Inconsiderate?? Most parents and fans are like that. If you want to get personal and judge the referee, become an assessor... But to do that you must first be a referee, so if you want to complain, ok, but help us out first. Please, my legs are starting to hurt!!
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Post by rbsoccerinsouth on Jan 10, 2007 4:24:55 GMT -6
Excellent responses... but back to the original reason this post was started.... What are the officiating associations doing to improve the level of the coaches around the state? And, what can we as coaches do to assist the associations to improve the level of the officiating that takes place at the high school level?
Believe me, I don't disrespect the parents that take on the role of officiating. I also don't direspect those that love the game and take on the role of an official.
What I don't agree with are the officials that are trying to learn the game and think they already know it all. If you are going to be an official of any game at an elementary level, you need to have an open mind and listen to not only the officials that you work with, but also the coaches that you work with.
So, I'm asking... be open minded... how can we improve things?
Maybe you as officials are in the works of improving things, but as coaches, we don't hear of those things and are never asked how we can help. And believe me, you can definitely benifit from hearing our thoughts.
So, let's really open this up.
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