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Post by rbsoccerinsouth on Jan 7, 2007 3:26:51 GMT -6
Before I even begin to get into my thoughts here, I ask the moderators to delete any posts that attack any officials personally or revoke the rules of this site.
My thoughts on officials doing high school games is this...
I have had several refs that are very good and know the rules of the game, take control of the game, and know how to deal with the players, parents, and coaches. I have also dealt with young refs that have alot of potential and are happy to be getting the experience and knowledge to be better refs. The worst thing that I have dealt with is refs that have been doing games for many years now that don't care about their development and think that they know everything and thing that everyone else doesn't know anything. There are more of them out there than you think.
My question is... how do we as coaches find a way to help the officiating assignors build a officiating education program to better prepare the refs that are asigned to our games?
Games should not be desided by the desicions of officials. The game should be decided on the field. All too often the game is not decided by the players playing the game, but rather by the decisions made by the officials trying to keep the game fair. All too often, they decide the game without the players being able to play the game.
Players should also be provided a playing experience where they feel safe. When calls are not made when they should, players begin to shy off from really playing the game and begin to think about their own safety. Especially the better players.
I am not an advocate of afficials that miss the first call and then make the second call. If you are a coach you know what I am talking about.
This leads to an uncotrollable match. It also tells the players that it is ok to continue to do the things that they are doing.
I know this is a delicate topic. I encourage and support the young refs that are learniing how to officiate games. I never give them a hard time. What I am totally against is the older officials that think they know everything and can't make a call when it needs to be made. What's even worse is the older ones that can't even give you an explanation of what they are calling. Those are the officials that need to be let go and let the younger ones in to start calling the games.
So, as coaches, what can we begin to do to help improve the level of officiating at the high school level?
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Post by coachray40 on Jan 7, 2007 6:10:48 GMT -6
Ok in LAPrep history, I am going semikinda agree with rb--a little.
Generally I dont take too well to ref bashing. Its counterproductive, and does little to improve the game. I do however believe that a method of providing continued education for officials, players and parents is a huge necessity, and one the needs to be addressed by those who administrate our officials statewide. I think parents need a better education first,as they regularly know little about the game. I also think many players need better education--we spend no time educating our players on the laws of the game.
With all that being said, I'll give props where they are due to good officiating. Yesterday in our match with BRHS, I felt Warren Byrd did probably the best job of officiating that I have seen in the last 5 years. He managed the match, protected the players safety, communicated effectively with coaches and players, and counselled players rather than ripping off cards to control them. Game was decided on the field, not by the whistle. Superb game done by the officials--that coming from the coach whose team lost.
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Post by PutMeInCoach2 on Jan 7, 2007 10:18:16 GMT -6
Let's see if I can fill in a few gaps here.
There is a big shortage of referee's in the state of louisiana, which makes it very hard to get rid of what some may call the "unqualified ones." You saw this last year during playoff time when some teams had to schedule early games or games on different days to get referee's for the game. Some even get asked to do 3 games a day for 3 days in a row during the regular season. They simply don't have enough officials
Second off, I think the education of the players needs to be furthered that way they can understand what the referee is calling as well. I can't explain how many times in a U16 Rec game that people ask what is indirect. Also when the ball is on the line, the players think the ball it out. As coaches we need to encourage the players to get the knowledge of the game they are playing by taking the class, or having a sit down discussion and making them learn.
The parents as well need to get a better grip of the game. They yell consistantly at some officials who are doing a great job. This makes officials not want to call the game for those teams.
Overall, I think the better referee quality needs to come from the assignors of the local association. I think he/she should check with coaches on how they feel each referee did from time to time. Also, go watch a game here and there to see the how certain officials. I do know of a few associations who do that. Maybe they all do this, I simply don't know. Some assignors may be willing to do these things, some may not.
In my humble opinion, approving the referee quality to a higher level on all aspects would be to go through the assignor and help him out.
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Post by lakeview on Jan 7, 2007 11:21:46 GMT -6
If you go to any sports forum, baseball, softball, basketball or football, you are going to see many posts about the quality of the officials. The ranks are thin, and overused in every sport. Maybe 1 or 2 out of hundreds can make money at this.
Players practice their skills 3-4 hours for each match. A referee pays his USSF dues, a hi school ref goes to one meeting, and he's ready for a season.
For the most part, an assignor is lucky to put 3 bodies on the field, and hope they do a good game. I have seen games where the referees meet with the coaches after the game and ask "what questions do you have of us." I've also seen some crews give an evaluation form to the coaches and ask them to send it to the assignor.
To me, feedback is the key. I know that in the state championship games at Tad G, a large group of officials sit together to enjoy the game and critique the referees with constructive comments.
One more thing, we have 3 officials for 22 players, going nonstop in a hurry. No timeouts. Look at every other sport. Basketball with 3 for 10 players. Baseball 3-4 for 9, football 5-7 for 22.
Refereeing a soccer match ain't easy.
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Post by JustSomeRecPlayer8 on Jan 7, 2007 12:26:35 GMT -6
One more thing, we have 3 officials for 22 players, going nonstop in a hurry. No timeouts. Look at every other sport. Basketball with 3 for 10 players. Baseball 3-4 for 9, football 5-7 for 22. Refereeing a soccer match ain't easy. Thats a great point.
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dogabone
Bench Warmer
"Give a dog a bone"
Posts: 34
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Post by dogabone on Jan 7, 2007 12:32:40 GMT -6
Refereeing a soccer match ain't easy. Totally agree. I think if you have never refereed "several" (I use several, because you need to be involved in several issues to understand) soccer games, then you can never understand how difficult it is to do. I have been to many high school games this year where there have only been 2 officials. That's a lot of ground, and a lot of players for 2 officials to cover. Even with 3 its difficult. Some coaches expect perfection on calls, especially when it comes to their team. I say this from experience of being a coach. It is very hard to except a so called "bad call" or "bad no-call" as a coach and player. Especially in the heat of a game. Having officiated many games as well, I know that it is impossible to see everything, and it is impossible to always have the best angle when you do call something. Take for example an offsides call. From directly at 90 degrees a player may be onside, yet adjust that 20-30degrees and that same player looks offsides (to a coach or player on the sideline, or parent in the stands. Summary: Action is quick on the field, field is big, angles are tough, and expectations are high. By the same token, having watched many games out of state as well, I do feel we are a good bit behind in La when it comes to the quality of officiating we have to offer. I think whatever measures can be taken to improve education of all will do wonders for the officiating program as a whole. I most certainly agree that the education of high school players, parents, and fans is extremely low, which has a direct effect on the amount of yelling and screaming that officials get at high school games. One of the biggest improvements that can be made for officials is to review (on film) some of the games that they call, so that they can see the mistakes that they are making in order to improve themselves. Unfortunately as it stands right now, they walk off the field possibly thinking they made the right call in a critical situation and never see the error of their ways. Over all, the shortage of officials, the education of officials, players, parents and fans, and the inability of officials to see their errors are issues that can possibly be worked on. When it comes to arrogance and "know it all" attitudes of officials, that is just something that is a given in all sports and something that all coaches will have to continue to deal with in the best way possible.
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Post by soccer2006 on Jan 7, 2007 16:01:22 GMT -6
im not tryin to bash any refs either, but i mean come on when you cant run and you are tired after about 10 minutes you shouldnt be able to ref in the center, i mean i can understand being a linemen but even if you cant run up and down the line you can miss an important call that determines the game.
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Post by soccerboy07 on Jan 7, 2007 17:20:15 GMT -6
im not tryin to bash any refs either, but i mean come on when you cant run and you are tired after about 10 minutes you shouldnt be able to ref in the center, i mean i can understand being a linemen but even if you cant run up and down the line you can miss an important call that determines the game. Have you ever refereed a soccer game?
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Post by soccer2006 on Jan 7, 2007 19:50:17 GMT -6
im not tryin to bash any refs either, but i mean come on when you cant run and you are tired after about 10 minutes you shouldnt be able to ref in the center, i mean i can understand being a linemen but even if you cant run up and down the line you can miss an important call that determines the game. Have you ever refereed a soccer game? Yea i have your point?
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Post by mark18 on Jan 7, 2007 20:16:13 GMT -6
I'll put my two cents in on this topic.
Players (and Coaches) are putting in a large number of hours on a weekly basis. They deserve quality referees to call their games. No one is expecting perfection but the basics of being in shape, being in position (i.e. knowing where to stand in a dual system for example) and at least giving the impression that you care enough to try to do your best as opposed to standing with your hands on your hips just waiting for the game to be over.
I don't buy the shortage of referees argument for high school play. There are far less games being played now than in Sept. and Oct. There can be no argument that continuing development and evaluation of current referees needs to be implemented
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Post by garrincha on Jan 7, 2007 21:28:30 GMT -6
We always blame the refs whenever the game outcame is not what we wish. In soccer you allways will see us blaming refs because that's the easy way out "put the blame on someone else" . Good teams and / or coaches learn to adjust and play the game; it's just another barrier to overcome sometimes. Just think : wind, rain, muddy fields, wrong cleats, girlfriend is not here today, and of course the best excuse " bad ref" :-)
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Post by snowbird on Jan 7, 2007 22:14:00 GMT -6
Here's my two cents....the very best refs go unnoticed in a match....no matter who wins or loses. The game is not about them and if they have "control" of a match they almost always have no effect on the outcome. OK - before I get called out on this - penalty kicks are usually seen in one of two ways: they were for you or against you. That being said, the best refs do not hesitate and make the call when it is an unquestionable foul in their eyes and it is usually obvious to most in the stands that a foul was committed.. Players decide matches. Refs should be there to ensure safety and enforce the laws of the game. When a ref becomes the center of attention....it's usually a bad thing.
Also...I'll say this as well: the refs are not out there to "even the playing field." If one team is better, well so be it. I think sometimes refs confuse making sure the game is played "fairly" and "making the playing field even."
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Post by gatorsoccer4 on Jan 7, 2007 22:34:02 GMT -6
I have seen the point of view from all three angles: player coach and ref Alot of times the player does not agree with what the official has called on him bcuz often the player feels as if he or she has done nothing wrong i.e. not know all the rules of the game but also i have seen times-and maybe i too am guilty of it- of a ref more or less evening the playing field with calls that he or she makes
often time this come from when the ref feels the they have made a wrong call earlier in the game so it is a make up call which should not be the case once the ref has made the incorrect call and it is well past that call or even right after that incorrect call the ref should forget that mistake and go to the current infraction made by either team
also to the parents, fans, coaches, and players who believe they know eveything there is to know about the game of soccer and blame their problems on the ref I am brought back to what one of my coaches told me when i was younger "come to the game expecting the worst of anything-ref, field conditions, player, anything- and you will never be disappointed in the game"
if you go out and play your best and put the ball in the net wheen u have the chances the ref can not argue with the ball in the back of the net
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Post by snowbird on Jan 7, 2007 23:17:52 GMT -6
"if you go out and play your best and put the ball in the net wheen u have the chances the ref can not argue with the ball in the back of the net" -gatorsoccer4
yeah...that's what I think as well...too bad most people today play the "blame game"....it's never their fault or their child's fault. A COMPLETE AND TOTAL LACK OF ACCOUNTABILITY USUALLY. Do refs mess up and cost a team a game.....yes, it happens from time to time...but, I honestly can't remember many games when a ref made a bad call and cost a team a match when the team that lost didn't have at least ONE chance on goal that should have been finished and was missed.
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Post by snowbird on Jan 7, 2007 23:24:22 GMT -6
ok...maybe the ref CAN not only argue with the ball in the back of the net...he can make a bad call and pull it out of the net disallowing the goal. just thought I would beat all of you comedians out there to this
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Post by gatorsoccer4 on Jan 7, 2007 23:41:42 GMT -6
yea he could but that will probably happen only once in alot of games being played and even at that im sure a team gets more than one look at a goal that should be made and it begins to look a little funny when the ref does this repeatedly
just thought i would add that in
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Post by rbsoccerinsouth on Jan 8, 2007 1:10:31 GMT -6
Lakeview you are boring me with your lack of knowledge of the game. Any referee that knows the game can easily make calls. Yes we have 22 players on the field playing soccer and other sports have a different number of players competing at the same time. There is a reason we have three officials calling the match in soccer. If you think that number is too low than call FIFA and give them your concerns that three is not enough. At any given time, there are only about 10 players around the ball. That's where the call needs to be made. Whether the foul takes place where the ball is or it takes place just after, the ref can see that if he/she is experienced. It's not hard to call the game of soccer. When it comes to offsides... thats the easiest call to make (as long as you understand the rules as an official). I've had refs that didn't understand or know what is direct or indirect. I've had refs that didn't know that if the ball crosses the plane of the line the ball is out of bounds. I've had refs that thought that just because a player receives a ball after it has been kicked and is in then in an offsides position that he is then offsides. I've seen it all (and I'm sure you have too). I agree that the assignors need to get their act together and educate their officials better. But I don't agree with you that because soccer has 22 players playing at one time that the refs can make the right call. If you go to any sports forum, baseball, softball, basketball or football, you are going to see many posts about the quality of the officials. The ranks are thin, and overused in every sport. Maybe 1 or 2 out of hundreds can make money at this. Players practice their skills 3-4 hours for each match. A referee pays his USSF dues, a hi school ref goes to one meeting, and he's ready for a season. For the most part, an assignor is lucky to put 3 bodies on the field, and hope they do a good game. I have seen games where the referees meet with the coaches after the game and ask "what questions do you have of us." I've also seen some crews give an evaluation form to the coaches and ask them to send it to the assignor. To me, feedback is the key. I know that in the state championship games at Tad G, a large group of officials sit together to enjoy the game and critique the referees with constructive comments. One more thing, we have 3 officials for 22 players, going nonstop in a hurry. No timeouts. Look at every other sport. Basketball with 3 for 10 players. Baseball 3-4 for 9, football 5-7 for 22. Refereeing a soccer match ain't easy.
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Post by coach522 on Jan 8, 2007 5:36:37 GMT -6
I want to mention something that has not been discussed. I appreciate the fact that without them the games could not be played. I can count on one hand the number of times I have contacted an association about an official in any sport.
Resolution to main issue here, which is lack of better (they are all qualified) or the best officials...drum roll please ...drumming ....more drumming .....end drumming ..........PAY Pay them more and make it worth their while. Anyone officiating for the money alone is not going to be as good as someone who loves the game, but it would encourage folks with knowledge to get more involved.
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Post by PutMeInCoach2 on Jan 8, 2007 8:16:00 GMT -6
Pay them more and make it worth their while. Anyone officiating for the money alone is not going to be as good as someone who loves the game, but it would encourage folks with knowledge to get more involved. Some Soccer programs are already having problems paying officials as is.
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Post by PutMeInCoach2 on Jan 8, 2007 8:21:05 GMT -6
This is what my Baseball coach use to tell me when I went up to bat.
"You have 4 balls, 3 strikes. I give the umpire, 2 of those strikes. If the other one was hitable, then there is no reason you should have struck out. If you swing at a pitch no where near the strike zone, that was ur one strike u gave him."
Translating it to soccer, if you have a good opportunity to score and don't put it in back the net, you wasted a great chance. The referee now has his turn to waste one as well for you. You are not playing your game with absolute perfection, then how can u expect the referee to call with absolute perfection
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