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Post by ronaldo11 on Mar 11, 2006 14:46:13 GMT -6
I doubt Sven will go for someone he hasnt tried, now that the final friendly has taken place against Uruguay.
It'll be interesting to see who Benitez picks against the now-only representative for England in the champions league.
I dont think Michael Owen is particularly overrated or underrated. He's a great finisher who Liverpool wish they had now. There's one factor why I'd always pick Michael Owen ahead of Robbie Fowler : pace. Owen's someone who you can count on for goals all the time. Proved that all the time at Liverpool....proved that all the time at Real Madrid.....proved that all the time for England.......proved that whenever he played for Newcastle. Fowler didnt set the world alight at Leeds, and couldnt hold down a place at Man City, which is why Stuart Pearce let him go for free!!
Really though, at the top, top, top level.....pace is essential for strikers. Fair comment?
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bignasty
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THERE'S ONLY ONE UNITED
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Post by bignasty on Mar 11, 2006 22:19:54 GMT -6
Oh yea, I was going to say the same thing. Owen and Rooney do great because Owen is fast and quick on his feet, getting defenders on their heels. Then Rooney just bulldozes through them and England score. Crouch has not convinced me yet, but he's a good 70th minute sub for any team. Bent and Defoe I think are fighting for the last spot. I would choose Defoe just for the experience.
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Post by usasoccerboy on Mar 12, 2006 0:13:18 GMT -6
Good comments, and I hear you and realise yours is the popular opinion.; however, I believe Owen was good as you say because of his speed, but now because of injuries and age, his speed has diminished. I don't think of Owen as the natural goal scorer of like Fowler was in his younger days. I think these two players both have an uphill climb to get back to where they were before. Fowler turns 31 in April and hasn't scored for England since May of 2002, so he by far has the larger hill to climb. Yes, he is a longshot. But, of all the English forward players, he is the one player that I see having the best assets in scoring a variety of goals.
Owen's goals are many times off of breakaways.
Breakaways are more likely to occur in friendlies and minnows, less likely against fellow WC qualifying games and other major internationals and rare in World Cup games. Owen is not a guy to get on the end of headers and his service is not something he is known for, but then again, England has Beckham for that. What I am trying to say is I personally feel Owen is too one dimensional. I wasn't surprised he was benched at Real Madrid and is now back at a midtable EPL club. I think he is a good player. I don't think he is a major star.
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Post by ronaldo11 on Mar 12, 2006 7:20:44 GMT -6
Popular opinion? What do you mean?
I wouldnt say Owen's goals are mostly from breakaways at all. I completely disagree with what you said about when breakaways occur. If a team sets up a defensive stall and plays purely for the counter attack, it can happen anywhere, anytime, at any level.
Owen is not a guy to get onto the end of headers?? Have you not seen England 3-2 Argentina? He also gets his fair share of assists, especially with people like Lampard and Gerrard pushing on from midfield, like in the game against Austria. Owen's definitely not one dimensional.
Do you know how Real Madrid worked when Owen was there? He was never really seen as a 'Galactico'. This meant that even if Ronaldo and Raul werent on form, they would still start or the manager would get sacked. Owen was a crowd favourite because he never complained, and in the short time that he did play...guess what! he scored plenty of goals. They also say it was a mistake to let him go. When he has played for Newcastle so far, he's scored plenty of goals as well, including headers. The fact that he ended up at Newcastle was because Liverpool didnt have the money to buy him back. Everyone knows he wanted to go back to Liverpool...even Sven leaked that.
You said Owen's speed has diminished!?? Did you see how Owen got injured? Against Tottenham, he went so quickly past the last defender to challenge Paul Robinson...absolutely magnificent pace. If anything right now, Owen's all round game has improved, so right now he's more than a top goalscoring striker. Also, in terms of injuries, this is the first time ever that he's broken any bone in his body. He's always come back and scored goals from whatever other injury he's had, so I dont think you have a point there.
Like I said before, Im not his biggest fan, but I just cannot deny him his stats and achievements, which are much better than Fowler's.
Oh...and try telling the Liverpool fans he's not a star!
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Post by usasoccerboy on Mar 12, 2006 12:20:06 GMT -6
Like I said, yours is the popular opinion. Popular, means lots of people think as you do, Mine is not the popular opinion. Popularism is something that people equate with truth. Just because it is popular, doesn't mean it is right. For instance, it was once popular opinion that the world was flat, slavery was good, and the eugenics was agreat field of science.
And as you said, he is still young, so he can have some speed, but I don't see him being a total player as everyone else does, and I don't see him being as fast as he was when he came on to the scene. Whether it is in the euro championship or World Cup, he disappears for too long.
In the higher level matches like the World Cup, the defending is at a higher level, so you do not see the frequency of breakaways that you might see in a league match. That does not mean they do not occur. It means they happen less frequently. I disagree that they occur equally at all levels.
And this thread is not about saying Fowler is better than Owen or vice versa. Why you try to say that is what I am saying is beyond me.
These are two different topics, Fowler and Owen. Fowler I am trying to say I am hopefull to reqain his form. Owen I am saying is not as good as everyone makes him out to be.
But then again, why you are talking about Owen in a Liverpool forwards thread is beyond me. ;D
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Post by ronaldo11 on Mar 12, 2006 13:03:42 GMT -6
As for Owen. I don't see him as a good forward for England. I believe he is way overrated...... Thats why Im talking about Owen; because you are also. Plus as a legendary Liverpool striker, I think he's got more claim to being in this thread than any defender that plays against Liverpool, ie Spector. To be honest, a striker disappearing for 88 minutes doesnt bother me. It only takes a a few seconds to score a goal. Ronaldo is always absent for about 80 minutes in every game. The other 10 minutes, he's celebrating because he's just stuck the ball into the opposition net: example = world cup final! About the breakaway thing....im not saying that they happen equally at all levels. Im just saying that there is absolutely no pattern whatsoever that determines your claim. PS...it was great today. Jamie Redknapp and Graeme Souness echoed my thoughts.
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Post by usasoccerboy on Mar 13, 2006 1:02:22 GMT -6
Your Owen and Liverpool quote you just made is proof of your relativistic position. It was not alright when I brought in Spector after the Liverpool game vs. Charlton, but now you are saying it is alright to bring in Owen, because he played at Liverpool over 2 years ago. LOL! I knew that was coming. Pure relativism.
The truth is I don't care who we talk about.
Your 88 minutes of disappearing would be fine if Owen would score in those 2 minutes, but he doesn't, especially when it comes to getting closer to a world cup final.
As to my pattern, what I said was not a pattern. It is a probability. Again, breakaways are more likely to occur in games with weaker defending. The higher you go in the professional game, i.e. the World Cup, the less likely that a breakaway goal will occur. You can disagree all you want, but I don't see any evidence to back up your claim either. The reason is simple. Better quality games, better quality defending.
Well how about a link to those guys backing up whatever you had said? I am not sure what you are referring to when you make such a comment.
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Post by ronaldo11 on Mar 13, 2006 5:26:24 GMT -6
Relativism! Haha! You wish.... It doesnt matter if Michael Owen joined San Jose Earthquakes...he is still a legendary Liverpool striker. I said he's got more claim to being in this thread, not that 'it wasnt alright to bring in Spector'. For someone who claims to be so clever, you dont really understand english well. Owen does score in those 2 minutes.....when England went out to Brazil last WC, Owen scored. He scored regularly throughout the European Championships. He scored a hat trick for England against Germany in Germany before. He's won the European Footballer Of The Year (Ballon D'or) for God's sake! And he's still scoring goals nowadays!! If you think all the teams in World Cup Finals are full of world class defences, then you obviously havent watched that many world cups. Either that, or you really dont know what you're talking about. Lets take this World Cup....out of the teams, you think that there will be an amazing level of defending from the likes of : Costa Rica, Ecuador, Trinidad & Tobago, Ivory Coast, Iran, Angola, Ghana, Australia, Togo, Tunisia and Saudi Arabia??? Last World Cup, Germany won 8-0 against Saudi Arabia, Brazil scored 4 against China and 5 against Costa Rica, Portugal scored 4 against Poland ETC. Anticipating your sillyness....i dont care what the name of the thread is. Judging by your last post, neither do you, unless you live by the rule of relativism.
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Post by deridderforward#23 on Mar 13, 2006 13:26:38 GMT -6
michael owen is not overrated. omg thats b.s he is a God in england because he scores all the bloody time for england. he scored against brazil which i dont think any american striker could do. he is not old and his days are not behind him. its not how one player plays its the team and owen is still one of the best forwards in the world right now. you americans should watch more games instead of 1 or 2 because everyplayer ever has had a couple of bad games. he will beat anyone for the number 1 spot with wayne rooney i guarente it. he is injured so thats why hes on a droubt but i bet you before the end of the world cup you would have changed your mind when he scores alot of goals. all im saying is that you must not know who michael owen is.
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Post by deridderforward#23 on Mar 13, 2006 13:27:18 GMT -6
and michael owen is still bloody young.
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Post by deridderforward#23 on Mar 13, 2006 13:31:05 GMT -6
just to let you guys know michael owen is like 25, 26 and robbie fowler is 30 so i think you guys should just say that owen is better because he is and he can finish better than most players on this earth. owen will make you change your mind i will guarente it.
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Post by deridderforward#23 on Mar 13, 2006 13:38:28 GMT -6
owen does not score his goal out of breakaways he goes through the defence with ball control and quick feet. he is one of englands top scorers and i have watched every single game he plays. let him settle at newcastle please and he will score,score,score. hes still relatively young for a soccer player who has NOT lost his speed and i think the only people on here that know what they are talking about is me and ronaldo11 because we both know m.owen way better than you guys because he plays for our country. he will suprise you. robbie fowler is just not good enough anymore. he did excellent for liverpool when he was young but really didnt suprise anyone on the international stage whereas owen suprises everyone nearly everygame for england because he scores all the time and is one of englands top threats. alot better than brian mcbride or landon donovan or brian ching and alll the other usa forwards. still world class and hopefully he can come back to liverpool soon because liverpool and england fans love him.
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Post by deridderforward#23 on Mar 13, 2006 13:39:17 GMT -6
one of the best players ever for england and will be in the top 50 players of all time list by the time he retires i can put abet on it.
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bignasty
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Post by bignasty on Mar 13, 2006 18:17:09 GMT -6
ok deridder, usasoccerwhatever is the only one saying Owen is overrated. I'm a fan of Owen even though he played for Liverpool. The first game I saw him play was the one against Argentina, (I think in world cup 98?) and like you said, he dribbled through like 3 guys and drove it in the back of the net.
Also, just because one American says something, doesn't mean everyone in America believes that too. Many of my friends say soccer is boring, but I think it's the most exciting game in the world.
As far as comparing Owen to McBride, it's a bit more difficult because they are a different type of striker. He's more like a Rooney. In which case it's obvious Rooney is better than McBride. Owen being compared to Donovan is also kind of hard to do since Donovan plays midfield too. But they are very similar, and I wouldn't put Owen too far ahead of Donovan, but he is still better.
I don't agree that Owen is "overrated". If anything he is underrated because of people like usasoccerperson who think Robbie Fowler will magically regain his form from his early days and make it back onto the England squad before May.
And how did Owen's age become a factor? I've never heard anyone call a soccer player at 26 "old", until usasoccerbadonkadonk said it. If he is old then Van Nistelrooy is a grandpa because he's like 29 or so.
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Post by usasoccerboy on Mar 13, 2006 22:21:54 GMT -6
I never said Owen was too old to play.
I have virtually watched the guys entire career. I know what Owen has done.
First off, relativism was applied about you ronaldo, not Micheal Owen.
Ronaldo condemned me for talking about Spector because he was not a Liverpool forward, and then he brought up Owen who is not a forward for Liverpool and has not been one for a good while, yet you rationalized that it was ok after you pronounced it was not because he played for Liverpool way back when.
You claim to know all about the English language (by saying I don't), yet you so easily made a mistake in your interpretation of what is relativism and how it is applied. I am not here to debate philosophy with you, but if you are willing to do such, I suggest we go to the anything and everything section and discuss relativism and what it means. So far, I am only left to think that I am arguing with a sophist.
And as I said earlier, I know my opinion of Owen is not the popular opinion, but then again, I don't strive to be in step with popularism. I am just one person who watches just as much of the game as anyone else,
I agree deridderforward that Owen will be paired with Rooney for this summers cup. I am just saying, that I wouldn't be that worried if I was playing against England so much about Owen, but more so about Rooney. Owen, again, I know is a fan favorite for English fans, but I don't see him being all that special of a striker. I believe he is a good player. I do not think of him as an exceptional player, this of course at the international level only. Give me a Schevchenko, RVN, Henry, or a Ballack over an Owen any day. But if I had a club, I would definitely want Owen to play on my team. And if he was playing for the USA, you darn right I believe he would be our number one forward. The USA does not have a talented pool in the forward department as England. I never claimed anything about the USA having better forwards, so I do not know why you guys invented that notion that I did.
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Post by ronaldo11 on Mar 14, 2006 4:25:18 GMT -6
Dont hide behind the fact that I make some good points. All of my points are backed up, so away with your sophist comment. Personally I think the plebiscite from all of us would dictate that you're a symbol of plebeianism. Also, Im not gonna take you up on your offer about discussing philosophy....lets just save our time; i'll definitely have the popular opinion.
You have virtually watched Owen's career. I've really watched Owen's entire career.
You're obviously clutching onto straws. Yet again, I dont care what the name of the thread is. I dont care who is talked about in this thread. But it shows that you obviously know yourself that you're being beaten in the argument, so you're now looking for mere technicalities. I didnt say anything about Spector not being able to be in this thread, I said Michael Owen has more claim to being in here.
Ok guys, here's the problem. Its years and age. Usasoccerboy thinks that michael owen played for liverpool "way back when". 2/3 of a season at Newcastle and 1 season at Real Madrid, is all Owen's been away from the club for. So if Usasoccerboy thinks less than 2 years is a HUGE length of time, of course he thinks that Michael Owen is too old for international soccer.
Im going out on a limb here. Usasoccerboy, you definitely do not watch as many games as me. Absolutely not. And also...Ballack isnt a striker.
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Post by deridderforward#23 on Mar 14, 2006 12:02:53 GMT -6
once again ronaldo knows what hes talking about and owen is up there with schevy and all them hes just going through a little injury spell and is not at the best club in the world but has another top quality striker alan shearer that i would welcome with open arms to come back on the england team. owen has got the best player in europe a few years ago and still is capable of scoring against anyone at anytime. us england boys love owen asmuch as we love rooney. 2 of the best strikers out there you will come to find.
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bignasty
All-District
THERE'S ONLY ONE UNITED
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Post by bignasty on Mar 14, 2006 14:46:42 GMT -6
at least you're not denouncing all of my fellow americans anymore. I don't agree with most of what usasoccerboy says, so you can denounce him.
But deridder and ronaldo......... I want to know this simply because I respect your opinions....... What do you feel about my last post on the comparisons? Agree, disagree? I'm not an expert on this so I'd like some other opinions.
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Post by ronaldo11 on Mar 14, 2006 15:58:10 GMT -6
Well first off....that Owen '98 goal....certainly shocked the Argentines! In terms of the bigger picture, I think USA certainly has a lot of things going for it, in terms of the domestic league scene. Yes, it has barriers of American football, baseball and basketball to break down, but I certainly think the stadia and training facilities can only help the national team for future years to come. Money will come in from revenue as the sport slowly grows and players will develop improved techniques. Also, with english being the dominant language of the world, there are loads of world class coaches looking to venture into USA for a number of years. Its quite odd, but I honestly feel that all four strikers - Owen, Rooney, McBride and Donovan - are all completely different. Perhaps what is more appropriate to say - they will all play different roles within any team. McBride is famed for his aerial ability. I honestly think he will be the most important forward for USA, with his ability to win headers, and potentially knock a few down to Donovan and co. McBride's role - Target Man. Landon Donovan, as you said, can also play in midfield. I think he's someone who will drop off the front line, collect the ball and spread it to the wide men, if he cannot seek any spaces which to dribble into in order to advance, or seek a pass to the target man. In terms of playing right up front, he's certainly agile enough to get onto the end of McBride's knock-downs, but does he have the ability to finish against higher level goalkeepers? The jury is out. Donovan's role - Link Man. Michael Owen - an out and out finisher. A goalscorer. The final piece to the footballing jigsaw. Owen has been able to drop off and try to link things up, and although he's succesful at doing so, its not quite where I'd like to see him. For Real Madrid, he did this a lot because Ronaldo was the main striker. However, when he is playing as the main player with goalscoring responsbility, then we see the real Michael Owen. The down side of this is that he relies on service. The good side of this is that he can be relied upon to put the ball in the back of the net if this service is right. Proof of this is when he had Beckham, Figo, Zidane and Guti playing though balls to him. Owen's role - Finisher. Wayne Rooney. This is what makes this guy so special. He's strong enough to hold the ball up. He's clever enough to drop back into midfield (like you will have seen him do for Man U recently). He's deceptively quick enough to race past defenders (as he did many times in Euro 2004). He's quality enough to finish very well, especially in big matches. He can do it all. You wouldnt want Rooney stuck playing one of those roles set out by a manager. You just want him to go out onto the field and express himself in the best way he knows how. And that my friend, is playing the beautiful game. Rooney's role = Free forward. Thats my take.
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Post by usasoccerboy on Mar 14, 2006 16:52:25 GMT -6
Well Ronaldo, at least I don't brag about myself without openly admitting I am bragging which I did when I bragged how I am beating so many british people again in my fantasy football league at football365.com.
Hey, I finished in the top 250 in the world out of over 2 million people in the 2002 World Cup pick em contest from Fifaworldcup.com so go figure
Once again, Owen may be your hero because you are an English supporter. Well, that is great. But the guy has done nothing in two years and you still think of him as top notch. Well good. I am glad you got all your facts to support him for the past two years.
Owen is not the same Owen of 98. This I have said repeatedly. But many on here are using 98 as a defense. Well, that doesn't prove a darn thing that my belief that he is gone down in terms of striking .
NO WHERE did I claim he was too old for the international game.
Once again, deridder has to invent something up to attack. More than likely, he is a democrat as this is a common trait amongst dems to invent things up that opponents say and then attack them for saying it, which of course, they never did.
And no where does he back up his points either. Deridder just claims that they are backed up, well if I am doing research and I claimed I backed up my points and did not, guess what happens?
And you said sarcastically. "PS...i love this thread. "liverpool's strikers" , and we're chatting about a Man U defender on loan at Charlton! " And in your last post, you claimed that Owen has more claim to being in this thread.
Oh really? How did you derive at this decision? (always a good comeback for a sophist. They hate socratic questioning).
And since when do you qualify as a person who gets to say what should be included in a thread?
You say you watch every liverpool game. Good. I just want to remind you again, that Owen hasn't played for Liverpool for a long time, so I don't see how that argument holds up. You say you watch every EPL game. Good, I watch many EPL games, virtually almost all MLS games, many Serie A games, many international games, League 1 games, Spanish games, German Games, but I don't think just because I watch many games, that that automatically means I am superior to someone else who watches games. I don't have an inferiority complex that you seem to have deridderforward. Oh, and I have watched every World Cup game since 1982. So what!
...and like the typical sophist mentality, you engaged in ad hominem attacks. Socrates noted this common characteristic in sophist when beaten.
I don't care to beat or win this argument. I am only interested in discussion and the search for truth.. I am glad you love being part of the popular opinion. I am only worried about the truth, not being popular.
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